Newbie 1289 - Game Over!

[Tierce]

Don't do that.
That's the first step to passive lurking. The best way to get things going is jumping on the action--if everyone sits around not doing anything, we won't get good interactions that players can be held accountable fot.

Which of Deltabacon or vendetta21 looks worse to you? Why? Vote them.

[ovyo]

I'd say vendetta, he makes not of PaperShift's newbie status, uses that as both a reason for and against voting for him, then backs off. I'm suspicious of anyone that picks an easy target. Plus his wordiness gives me a strange vibe too.
Then again DeltaBacon wanted to kick all of our arses, not a town friendly stance. Most likely a joke. But suspicious none the less.

VOTE: Vendetta

[buldermar]

It's not, but how do you think the game is going to start moving *without* random or otherwise premature votes? If everyone played like you suggested, we wouldn't have a game.

I don't think it takes 24 hours to respond to my #26. I'm not liking this lazy start.

I think people are encouraged to create content regardless. I disagree with the premise that playing like me means there wouldn't be a game.

[BT]

I think people are encouraged to create content regardless.

Prepare to be disappointed.

[buldermar]

RVS is not a necessity; I prefer to do away with it ASAP and my ovyo is not random. However, you are implying that you have no viable reads yet. I find that hard to believe.

You are talking about extreme corner cases. I don't support a cop accepting the lynch of his confirmed innocents, for example, even to avoid a no-lynch. Self-hammering minutes before the deadline MAY be acceptable, but again, this is a very corner case and better approached if the situation ever rises up. It was quite obvious that I was not talking about those corner cases, and your focus on it instead of actual events in this game is off.

I have no issues with being corrected, and the fact that I have my own opinions in theory does not make them Absolute Truth, but your correction is reading as an avoidance of matters that actually have to do with the game to focus on a theory discussion that does not relate to the current events. That is scummy.

I'm unfamiliar with the expression/term ovyo. I'm merely implying that the extent of my current reads is insufficient to warrant a vote.

I am talking about the case you used as an example (that a confirmed town lynch is superior to no lynch). It was never quite obvious for me why you would make such (in my opinion outrageous) claim, which is part of the reason I corrected it. You were talking about the misconception that lynching a confirmed town is superior to lynching no town, and insofar you define this as a corner case you were by definition talking about such.

I disagree with your separation of this discussion from the game. For instance, based on your persona I could interpret it as deliberate misguidance of town (i.e. scummy behavior). The way I think, this discussion

is

an event in this game and

does

to some extent reflect alignment. Whether I can make proper use of it or not is a different matter.

I think you're misinterpreting my correction as an avoidance of matters that actually have to do with the game. To me, this is more relevant than anything else going on currently. If you think otherwise, I recommend you point out something I should comment on (and I shall do so).

A final note (and this is something I could definitely omit): truth in 2-valued statements cannot be depicted as a continuum. It can only have one of two values: true or false (the principle of bivalence). In other words, this is not a matter of opinion.

[buldermar]

I just realized that you were referring to your vote on Sylvant who is now replaced by ovyo - sorry.

[buldermar]

Absolutely it wasn't random. In my view, it's a tad pre-mature. He is making a simple point and voting.

Would you say that it is more reasonable of someone to make a random vote than make a vote based on a very limited amount of information?

[buldermar]

Tierce, what is your ovyo vote based on?

[Tierce]

Worst of the voters on someone who is obvtown.

It's up to you to be proactive, not for me to indicate what I think Town would comment on.

You are discussing a theory point that you dismissed as a situation in which I wasn't intentionally leading anyone astray. If you can't use it for scumhunting (i.e. you're not finding scum motivation in doing so), what is the point in focusing on that instead of addressing the rest of the game? There

are

plenty of things you could be addressing already or showing your opinion about, yet you haven't yet done anything that reveals interest in finding scum.

There is a difference between content and arguing for argument's sake, and my impression is that you are more interested in correcting people than in figuring out the intent behind their words and moving on. That makes little sense from a Town perspective.

[ovyo]

Tierce, what was your reasoning for voting Sylvant before the replacement?

[Tierce]

I quoted that on my previous post. PaperSpirit is obvtown and I didn't like your slot's vote on him.

[ovyo]

Oh, my bad. I thought that you said that because of my vote for BT.

[Deltabacon]

Hello everyone! Let's get this show on the road.

So, a random vote for BT from Deltabacon? Hmm... I don't know about a random lynch. Going no lynch right now until we get more clues.

##VOTE: No Lynch

I just wrote something to post in the thread, as I've been waiting a time for this to begin. Also, I didn't think that lynching on the first day would yield anything good, mostly because we don't have any information yet, and it's a wider possibility to lynch a good guy instead of a bad guy.

By the way, is there any chance to change a vote during the day? Just to be sure (I think it does, but I'm not really sure. Looked up around but didn't find anything.)

It's my first game yet.

wow. Didn't see Airick10's first post before now. I guess casting random votes will indeed start a conversation. But anyways, why do you ask?

Seriously, Tierce, why are you trying to portray PS as obvtown? He's a newbie to the game, and has simply applied some common sense to the mechanics rather than actually put anything forward. Why are you painting this as

'obvtown'

play, Tierce? I can't help but notice that you haven't put forward any indication as to why he is

'obvtown'

, which makes me wonder what makes you truly believe he is

'obvtown'

in the first place.

UNVOTE: BT
VOTE: Tierce

I'm looking forward to your reply.

[Tierce]

Because PaperSpirit

is

obvtown.

No, I didn't provide any explanation why I think that. That was intentional, as I don't see any need to do so at the moment other than to explain the vote on Sylvant/ovyo. (He's not in any risk of being lynched, so I have better things to do than explain a townread.)

Why does the lack of explanation of a townread make me scum?

[Deltabacon]

Because you're not backing up your viewpoint, and you've deliberately just avoided it by saying you have better things to do. Why is he obvtown? I want you to take apart the points I made, and tell me why I am wrong. Until then, my vote stays put.

[Tierce]

No one is voting PaperSpirit

. Yes, I deliberately avoided explaining why I think he's Town. Get used to it, people don't always explain their reads. It's one thing to not explain a scumread, but I don't need to burn towntells right now to explain why PaperSpirit is obvtown. I'll be willing to explain if he ever gets in danger of being lynched or, failing that, at the end of the game. But get over yourself--you're not going to bully me into unnecessarily explaining a strong townread on page 3. Not backing my viewpoint in a way you can understand does not make me scum.

[Deltabacon]

No-one was voting for you until me. That didnt make me think you were obvtown. Thats twice you've avoided my attempt to understand you, and you're telling me to get used to it? I'm not seeing why you're avoiding this. All he has done is apply some common sense to the game and informed people he's new and he's obvtown becuase no-one's voting him? That's a weak argument, Tierce.

Who do you realistically see as scum? At the moment you're presenting some awful arguments and asking people to make their arguments heard, but apart from some light prodding, you haven't actually put across any opinions on reads other than a seemingly random vote on then Sylvant/Ovyo. You say you aren't an advocate of RVS and you pushed BT to form some 'viable reads', yet you haven't put any of your own out with any kind of decent justification. Who do you see as scum and why, at this stage. Give me some viable reads you've come up with, and justify them, like you are oh-so-insistant upon with others.

[Tierce]

Stop trying to twist my words. What I said is that the fact that no one is voting for PaperSpirit means I don't have to bother myself explaining why he is town. And this is not 'avoidance', this is outright refusal to explain the reason behind my townread on PaperSpirit because I don't see how it favors town to explain it at this moment.

'Awful arguments'? Really now? What of my 'arguments' don't you agree with?

I've made quite clear that my vote on Sylvant/ovyo is not random and why.

You are trying to misrepresent my position. One, I haven't addressed BT. Two, I pushed lightly on buldermar and ovyo. The latter because she joined the game with a passive position and I want to get a better read on her, the former because he's discussing theory instead of addressing the game itself.

I've made quite clear that these two are scumreads. Your attempts at misrepresentation and trying to paint me as scum, apparently without even reading my posts in depth (or you'd see my reads and understand how I'm forming them) or trying to understand my motivation, mean you join them in the scum bin.

I have reads on several players and they are pretty evident. You read like eager scum trying to push something, but anyone who cares to read my posts sees your words are empty and false.

[ovyo]

Looking back at my posts, I can see how I'm coming off scummy. My passiveness is purely because I'm getting used to all of this and I entered the game slightly confused.
By nature I'm very laid back, but I guess you guys wouldn't know that because I'm new.

[Airick10]

RVS is not a necessity; I prefer to do away with it ASAP and my ovyo is not random.

Why the vote on Sylvant? The only significant post he had was voting for PaperSpirit. Are you implying that you do not think that was a random vote on Sylvant's part?

By the way, I would not consider any vote from here on out random.

[Airick10]

Wow, I just realized I haven't looked at page 3 yet! I'll re-read.

[Airick10]

Tierce - I agree with you on your read on PaperSpirit. I had the same read and felt like asking the obvious question in page 1. I do not agree with your read on Sylvant/ovyo, but it is still early. I do find it odd that Sylvant voted PaperSpirit after PaperSpirit's post about a no-lynch. Random or not? We will never know as ovyo can not defend that action.

What is your read on Vendetta? He voted PaperSpirit too, and it clearly was not random. It seemed like that was a quick and easy vote on a newbie jumping on a bandwagon. That is my read anyway as he unvotes right after seeing that's where the spotlight was at the time.

Even when the unvote, it appears he believes PaperSpirit is scummy or waiting for PaperSpirit to slip up.

Vote: Vendetta21

[vendetta21]

I'd say vendetta, he makes not of PaperShift's newbie status, uses that as both a reason for and against voting for him, then backs off. I'm suspicious of anyone that picks an easy target. Plus his wordiness gives me a strange vibe too.
Then again DeltaBacon wanted to kick all of our arses, not a town friendly stance. Most likely a joke. But suspicious none the less.

VOTE: Vendetta

Not what I said:

That being said, his response to me doesn't strike me as that of scum. He is a new player: given the queue time and his join date we can be reasonably certain that his new-playerness is genuine. What I find suspect is how he decided to try to cast a vote and then comes back saying he is unsure if we are allowed change votes. This in itself doesn't strike me as scummy, as he had casted a vote, garnered suspicion, and reviewed his decision. What strikes me as scummy is how he decided to post publicly about how he wanted to get this thing started and then made two moves that do nothing towards that end.

I think this is reasonable. I voted for him on page one making a mountain from a molehill. He responded in a way that caused me to believe he is more likely town than scum, but not in a way that makes me feel he is 100% town. For instance, he has been oddly silent since that whole debacle and is less than 12 hours from hitting his prod timer. His overall tone seems town, his new playerness seems genuine and not like he is acting, but he still isn't behaving in a way that confirms him as town to me.

That being said,

UNVOTE: Deltabacon
VOTE: vendetta21

Low progress : words ratio. Getting some vibes here.

This seems opportunistic. It happens on post 26. BT -- what progress do you feel was made previous to that point in the thread? It appears to me that my action in post 11 has spurred the a lot of things currently being discussed. Essentially you voted me for making a move that took us out of RVS. What is your idea of progress?

[Airick10]

Would you say that it is more reasonable of someone to make a random vote than make a vote based on a very limited amount of information?

A random vote is just that. A random vote. Usually the purpose behind it can be a conversation starter to get the game rolling along. Many reasons exist for voting for somebody, but I personally don't take a random vote all that serious.

[ovyo]

So wait, Tierce's vote for me is because my slot voted for PaperSpirit before I was switched in? Or because I voted for BT?