Newbie 1,276 (Game over!)

[CityElectric]

The last claim. I am also a VT.

Note: this means that our Doc is confirmed town. Also, his protects are pseudo-confirmed (for us to not be confirmed, scum had to have intentionally chosen to no-kill even with no knowledge of a Doc in the setup).

Well, you can just be called confirmed town, simply because it's N1, scum have no knowledge of the setup, and from the look of it, it's most likely a newb/newb scum team, so I doubt they'd no-kill.

I'm a VT.

I'm going to wait to make judgement until the rest of the claims happen. A wagon on the guy who's been everyone's constant throbbing townread makes me raise an eyebrow.

Thing is, everyone's constant throbbing townread can just as easily be scum. Here's my previous newbie game, which I think shows that pretty clearly: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22634. I even read in another topic that someone who read along was just as sold on the fact that I was town as the players in the game. I already got a creeping feeling yesterday that that was the case with Dog too, and Pasch's claim only confirms that for me.

VOTE: Cheery Dog

Where did this suddenly come from? You don't seem like you're buying Pasch's reasoning on Dog, so why vote him now, putting him at L-1?

For emphasis: Dog is now at L-1.

Note: this means that our Doc is confirmed town. Also, his protects are pseudo-confirmed (for us to not be confirmed, scum had to have intentionally chosen to no-kill even with no knowledge of a Doc in the setup).

I honestly don't think we should totally confirm the doc saves just in case there was a no kill, assuming that they attempted a kill N1 (which is most likely tbh) they may have risked being the doc's protect N2 for the WIFOM to seem confirmed.

This just makes you look like scum most likely being caught by a PR-claim and trying to talk your way out of it, by discrediting the claim as much as possible. Nhammen is confirmed for me at least, because of reasons given above. Rudi is a bit more debatable, but I'm getting a good feeling about him being confirmed as well.

VOTE: JasonWazza

Your whole reaction to Pasch's claim is looking terrible so far.

looking near the end of day 1, I see I followed Jason onto the counter wagon to ewo of Wiibox, and then as Rudi was replacing in I was attacking city and changed to that counter-counter wagon which died.
I realise this is going back to probability again, however I am seriously doubting that both members of the scum team would be able to avoid votes outside of the early stages of a newbie game.

Why are you doubting that?

Today is the first time I have been voted.
Johnny & Jason were only voted by ewo after they had replaced in. (one of which was by mistake).
This leaves me to suspect City is on the scumteam since she gathered some votes under her own stream.

VOTE: CityElectric

and since I know I am town, this game is a instant win by lynching city, jason and johnny in any order.

And that's bullshit. Because I gathered votes on D1, I'm scum? Also, you may know you're town, but we don't. And you're not exactly convincing me right now. Of course this game is an instant win if you lynch all the non-comfirmed players, but for who is it an instant win? I know I'm town too and that if I lynch you, Jason and Johnny, I'll win. Simple. However, if I were scum, and lying about my townieness, lynching you, Jason and Johnny in any order, would also be an instant win, especially if you're trying for a mis-lynch today.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Cheery Dog

Where did this suddenly come from? You don't seem like you're buying Pasch's reasoning on Dog, so why vote him now, putting him at L-1?

For emphasis: Dog is now at L-1.

Now your trying to miss-rep me.

I am all for Cherry's play being bad after yesterday and him being possible scum, but really, because he was on both lynches he is scum?

I am saying i don't agree with the tells he is using not that cheery isn't scum, and he is a confirmed doctor now, i honestly didn't expect that (pasch wasn't exactly on the top of my town list).

Note: this means that our Doc is confirmed town. Also, his protects are pseudo-confirmed (for us to not be confirmed, scum had to have intentionally chosen to no-kill even with no knowledge of a Doc in the setup).

I honestly don't think we should totally confirm the doc saves just in case there was a no kill, assuming that they attempted a kill N1 (which is most likely tbh) they may have risked being the doc's protect N2 for the WIFOM to seem confirmed.

This just makes you look like scum most likely being caught by a PR-claim and trying to talk your way out of it, by discrediting the claim as much as possible. Nhammen is confirmed for me at least, because of reasons given above. Rudi is a bit more debatable, but I'm getting a good feeling about him being confirmed as well.

So you don't want to take into account the possibility and the possibility we could lose from believing both saves?

VOTE: JasonWazza

Your whole reaction to Pasch's claim is looking terrible so far.

My reaction or the reaction you seemed to have made up?

[Cheery Dog]

looking near the end of day 1, I see I followed Jason onto the counter wagon to ewo of Wiibox, and then as Rudi was replacing in I was attacking city and changed to that counter-counter wagon which died.
I realise this is going back to probability again, however I am seriously doubting that both members of the scum team would be able to avoid votes outside of the early stages of a newbie game.

Why are you doubting that?

Everyone one in this lynchpool except Johnny is in a newbie slot, which suggests to me that we're unlikely to have much experience as scum and would have made mistakes and have been under suspicion early.
(though we do all have at least one completed game, though Jason and I only have town games under our belts and you only have a scum game).

and since I know I am town, this game is a instant win by lynching city, jason and johnny in any order.

And that's bullshit. Because I gathered votes on D1, I'm scum? Also, you may know you're town, but we don't. And you're not exactly convincing me right now. Of course this game is an instant win if you lynch all the non-comfirmed players, but for who is it an instant win? I know I'm town too and that if I lynch you, Jason and Johnny, I'll win. Simple. However, if I were scum, and lying about my townieness, lynching you, Jason and Johnny in any order, would also be an instant win, especially if you're trying for a mis-lynch today.[/quote]
If I was aiming for a mislynch I would have found one easily by hammering myself. 2 other people in this game also know I am town (though most people in the game don't, which is good since it means we haven't lost yet)
The win by doing that will be town. Though basing this solely on what I am thinking is likely to have happened in terms of wagons is probably bad.

unvote

As long as we do find a scum in this lynchpool either today (or tomorrow if it carries on like the current votes indicate and I'm lynched), this should still be an easy town win.

I've unvoted as I have just been thinking that we would be best to treat this as if it were MYLO between the 4 of today's lynchpool.
As such, all 4 of us should make cases on the other 3 as too why they might be scum (or town).
As for the 3 confirmed/semi-confirmed players, you should give out full reads on all four of us after the lynchpool has produced what ever cases they have.

I'll be posting another 3 posts shortly with my three reads of the people concerned. (sucks we can't spoiler it, because I'm going to be grabbing a lot of quotes from ISOs)

[Cheery Dog]

You may want to click back on some of these links to see the full context, I've removing quotes from within quotes to save people's scroll wheels.

CityElectric

Original slot McLuien, who confirmed and never posted. completely null, I can see that happening from either side.

Slot occupier number 2: Jambecca

So, I quickly skimmed through the game. I agree above with either nhammen or ewo is scum, and that they're not together, but nhammen's play is much more townlike, although mafia IC's probably play townlike, I still find ewo scummier overall. I'll look at ewo in isolation now.

Eh I take that back FML. I will look into this more sometime....... not tomorrow, I don't know, sometime. I will be back

Following the above post's leads and then ditching them four minutes later. This is also rather null seeing as Jambecca never got into this game, although it is a little fishy.

and now onto your own quotes.

Well, everyone seems to be moving away from him. Don't get me wrong, I still think he's scum, but at that point I was out of attack angles. And I still am. I'm also not satisfied with the answers he gave me, but I doubt I'll get something better out of him.

Actually, now I think about it... ewo hasn't really felt the pressure of L-1...

VOTE: ewo2

Running out of attack angles on your biggest scumread, and voting because of pressure applied onto you. "Feeling the pressure of L-1" doesn't seem like something you are actually that happy with this lynch and needed him to make more mistakes.

You know? I regret ever saying I should drop ewo's lynch, but I felt so little support from the rest of the players in my questioning of him that I felt I was the only one who did see merit in lynching ewo. That, and the fact I was out of angles to attack him, made me say that. No, I'm not satisfied by his answers at all, but I doubt I can get something better out of him. Meaning I still think he's scum.

Note that there was a mistake in one of the votecounts and ewo flaked at around Dog's vote. That's why I thought ewo didn't see that L-1 vote at all. However, I forgot to check. I apologize for that and retract that statement. However, I do want him at L-1 to ask my question again and try and get a normal answer without backpedaling.

(there was a HeriRudi quote between these paragraphs, however as I stated I removed all of those, these bits are related to the point I'm placing here)
You were doubtful that you would be able to get something better from it, yet you thought you might succeed if he's on L-1?
What pressure does someone get from being on L-1 that gets them to answer questions better than already being the biggest suspect.

The post everyone seemed to fall over was Post 237. I completely understand why in hindsight. In hindsight I also acknowledge that I should have given some more thought to that post before hitting submit. It was bad play. Yes, I felt unsupported in my case on ewo, and yes, I didn't want to let post 69 slide, but I was out of angles to attack him on that post alone. Combined with Dog's unvote, it got into my head that ewo's wagon was losing momentum. However, and this is just a bad habit of mine, I think as I post. I didn't want to withhold my complete thoughts from the town, so I typed up the second part of the post. I admit I was wrong, however, I was lost, and maybe a little too stubborn in my previous defense of that post.

Also, on the ewo hasn't felt the pressure of l-1 enough, I didn't have that part of the game fresh enough in my mind when I made that statement. I was under the impression that ewo hadn't posted at all before Dog unvoted, which was clearly wrong. Like I already said, I should have checked that before posting, I apologise for it and I retract the statement.

This post is an AtE, though rereading it now does actually sound like it might be coming from a town player.

Upon re-reading D2, my gut read on ewo is getting stronger again. He seems intent on getting Nhammen lynched, which is a lost case. But why would you want to get the IC lynched? Simple, because they're a pain in the behind for scum. (Or there is a very direct indication they're scum, but that's not the case for me here) His attack on Dog was terrible as well. So, he's basically trying to get the towniest player and the IC lynched, both of which would be very advantageous lynches for scum (NK the other one, and you've gotten rid of two potentially troublesome players in one day). Also, I think we'd gain the most information from a ewo-lynch, but it's too early in the day to make that reason count yet.

What actually was the attack on me? All I saw was him defending my move onto his wagon.

Also this question you never answered which is why I was currently suspecting a you/johnny team.

.
Johnny: not always the best arguments, but he asks good questions. Town.

What questions has he actually asked which you are considering good? The only questions I find he has asked are in his replace in post, is that the only place you have this read from?

I will give my opinion on which is the most likely scums after I've gone through the other two people's ISOs.

[Cheery Dog]

JohnnyFarrar

Starting with the predecessor again (Nekoko)

Isn't it a bit too early to generate two competing wagons?

Seems to be scared of competing wagons. (though I do understand about the later post about not knowing they were essential for early play, but that's not a sign. Not believing they are useful is a small scumtell).

Careful there. Everyone here has the same probability as to be town as you are.

Knowing nhammen is town?

and that's it from Nekoko.

gahh my former self talked a lot. I especially dislike 20. SE's should know better.

Amish tell? (though I don't know how useful a tell this is, I only recently read about it)

Scum:

ewo, nhammen

ewo and nhammen are not partners, but one of them is probably scum. I'm not confident pinning down the partner just yet.

Follows these too leads onto each other (while I said earlier I don't trust this as a scumtell as I know I have personally done it as town with an actual known scum, it's still useful information).

UNVOTE:
p-edit: Because he isn't being helpful for all his "experience" and has now taken to lurking. If he is scum I'd prefer we'd get rid of him now, and if he's town I'd rather not have him alive if we get into a more complicated situation like mylo or lylo.

This was talking about venrob and policy lynching him. This seems unlikely that he is on a team with Jason.

Everyone during day 2 from Johnny didn't lean any alignment on me. but then practically nothing happened during that day anyway.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

Cheery Dog (3): Paschendale, HerrRudi, JasonWazza
JasonWazza (1): CityElectric
Not voting (3): JohnnyFarrar, nhammen, Cheery Dog

With

7

players alive, it takes

4

players to lynch.

Day 3 ends in (expired on 2012-10-18 20:04:24).

[Paschendale]

You know what the number one thing I see Cheery do is? Reach one conclusion about a post or quote, and then later on reach a completely different conclusion about it. He flip flopped on the argument between me and MM, he defended Nekoko from me and now finds her early points suspicious.

Also, he wants the 4 people who might be scum to make cases, instead of the 3 who aren't. Cheery is extremely eloquent. I have no doubt that he will make excellent points, nor do I doubt that they will contradict things he said earlier.

[Cheery Dog]

aww you quote my mass post block (just as well I guess) anyway, finally here is

JasonWazza

starting with previous incarnates again (venrob)

Out of these BW's, i go with 2.

Vote: Nekoko

THIS IS AN L-1 VOTE.
if i counted right.

Venrob's horrible starting post, his vote here either means he is performing a gambit risking his partner getting lynched or it isn't a Jason/Johnny team. If it's not a team move, then I am assuming that it was an attempt to get a quicklynch done.

FUCKING HELL ITS A FUCKING D1 RVS! EITHER I NO VOTE OR I VOTE! WHAT THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO DO IN RVS!

Overkill on the shouting and AtE, though it doesn't actually give much.

Now, i tend to play based on my thoughts. If i think something is stupid and is good for scum, i attack. If i think a bandwagon is basisless, i attack it.

Attacking stupid things isn't the best way to win a game of mafia as town, him voting those who use RQS is a policy lynch some people would do and therefore that point is null.

Now, as for active lurking, i honestly forgot i was playing this game xD
I will post again on... the next page. I need more content to base a vote on. (i unvoted because it was an RVS vote, we dont need those laying around page 5)

I'm not happy about people forgetting they are playing a game, but I guess that is also null because if you forget then you don't actually care what is happening (obv not PR), though outright saying you're not going to help discussion is massively scummy.
and this RVS vote removal is even more so seeing as it placed someone on L-1, if you're going to do that in "RVS", then you need a better reason.

snipped because this post is just to long to bother reposting it now, it's just here so you can use the link if you want to see it

Jason's opening post (replace-in), only talks about Pasch, MissMaggot and one fluff post from wiibox. These slots are now confirmed/flipped town so this is even more suspicious than when I attacked this issue when it happened.

When i replace in i comment on posts that are scummy as i read them i don't see the need of going over every townie post (as god damn that would be long :/) and honestly the scum read flipped at about post #86 on the Paschendale/MissMaggot confrontation.

I still find it weird that only 3 people had made scummy posts this game.

Pretty sure that covers everything, city looks slightly scummy now, though to answer his (or i think it was his) question; i want a wiibox3 lynch, he lurks, he only defends and he is yet to make a case or a decent scum read and to me it feels like he is hiding in the corner.

Adds in my reasoning for why wiibox was a scumread onto his own scumread. Also this adds a possible link to City.

my eyes are really on you now, that sounds like you are just wanting to policy lynch ewo now.

This little bit after his vote seems uber scummy to me.

While I can see town seeing this, I can also see scum seeing this as a reason to keep me alive.

OK then i see what your doing it was PoE rather then anything else, that makes it seem less scummy tbh.

UNVOTE:HerrRudi

This still seems wrong from yesterday for the reason I said yesterday.

i just believe from my experience it is best not to claim until LYLO.

Also something that is worrying me from yesterday, massclaims at LYLO mean that now of the power roles can actually be proved (well I guess if it's 5p LYLO and you successfully lynch scum)

VOTE: Cheery Dog

I honestly don't think we should totally confirm the doc saves just in case there was a no kill, assuming that they attempted a kill N1 (which is most likely tbh) they may have risked being the doc's protect N2 for the WIFOM to seem confirmed.[/quote]

You seem even more opportunist now that a wagon has built up on me, you were partly suspecting me all of yesterday, yet you chose other targets other than me or the main wagon then, and now both of those have become semi-confirmed town.
So are you suspecting Rudi again now?

[HerrRudi]

What doesn't make sense to me is that we only have a Doc who has no reason to lie about his targets, and we have a player who gets called town literally all the time in D1 and a lot of D2 (that's you CD), that apparently never gets targeted for the NK. This just does not make sense to me considering how this site plays. Universal town reads get killed, but you didn't nor has anyone claimed to protect you. I know this isn't rock solid reasoning but I cannot get passed it in my mind.

Also CD's crying I'm town in almost all of his posts today is unmoving

[HerrRudi]

You seem even more opportunist now that a wagon has built up on me, you were partly suspecting me all of yesterday, yet you chose other targets other than me or the main wagon then, and now both of those have become semi-confirmed town.

CD, are you mad that Jason is bussing you so early in the day?

[Cheery Dog]

You know what the number one thing I see Cheery do is? Reach one conclusion about a post or quote, and then later on reach a completely different conclusion about it. He flip flopped on the argument between me and MM, he defended Nekoko from me

I have questioned on my conclusions to check that I have my facts straight to get to that conclusion, where I have flipped it's because of new information gained from that questioning.
(well except this new vote on city, that one didn't have new information, however I realised I was thinking too fast with that post).

Where did I defend nekoko from you? The only spot I can see where I mentioned the two of you in one post was me defending you from Nekoko. (unless me asking what the third vote on your wagon was (which btw was ewo's))

Also, he wants the 4 people who might be scum to make cases, instead of the 3 who aren't. Cheery is extremely eloquent. I have no doubt that he will make excellent points, nor do I doubt that they will contradict things he said earlier.

I said for you to make full reads, which means fully expanded reads, which could then be explained into cases, I am just assuming you're more likely to have got townreads on at least one of us, and a town case just doesn't sound right when you say it out. (I placed "or town" in brackets with my request of the lynchpool in case they do actually have town reads they want to expand on within the pool (though I do believe it is best to see what we all taste like if we were scum)

anyway after those cases, I find that the most likely scum teams are as follows
City/Jason
Jason/Johnny
City/Johnny (though I did see this as most likely during night 1 before I found pasch's other game which turned my attention onto him)

I won't be voting again until either the others place possible cases down, or my opinion on this being useful is rejected by everyone.

[Cheery Dog]

What doesn't make sense to me is that we only have a Doc who has no reason to lie about his targets, and we have a player who gets called town literally all the time in D1 and a lot of D2 (that's you CD), that apparently never gets targeted for the NK. This just does not make sense to me considering how this site plays. Universal town reads get killed, but you didn't nor has anyone claimed to protect you. I know this isn't rock solid reasoning but I cannot get passed it in my mind.

Also CD's crying I'm town in almost all of his posts today is unmoving

I'm probably alive because of my statement after the wiibox lynch, the scum would have seen that would be possible to lead to the next two mislynches and give them the win, which it more than likely would have if Pasch hadn't managed to save both nightkills.

You seem even more opportunist now that a wagon has built up on me, you were partly suspecting me all of yesterday, yet you chose other targets other than me or the main wagon then, and now both of those have become semi-confirmed town.

CD, are you mad that Jason is bussing you so early in the day?

Pasch has called a Jason/me team - me flipping scum wouldn't help him and would be a pointless bus. Me however flipping town may however help him due to the circumstance in which pasch called us out as the scumteam.
and this may seem like a bunch of WIFOM or whatever, but you have asked a loaded question so that's what you would be getting anyway.
What is making you suspect the same team as Pasch?

[Paschendale]

anyway after those cases, I find that the most likely scum teams are as follows
City/Jason
Jason/Johnny
City/Johnny (though I did see this as most likely during night 1 before I found pasch's other game which turned my attention onto him)

I won't be voting again until either the others place possible cases down, or my opinion on this being useful is rejected by everyone.

So wait, your possible scum teams are every combination that don't include the confirmed town or you? Man, that is some hardcore detective work!

Cheery doesn't have a case he believes in, he's just trying to throw everything out there in case we'll succumb and let him live. He went from putting forth theories strong enough to be considered obvtown to throwing out everything in a desperate attempt to survive. He's not trying to figure out who's scum. He's just trying to play on the previous townread and escape.

[Cheery Dog]

the confirmed townies are confirmed town.. why should I be placing them in the supposed teams?

Provided we get one scum either today or tomorrow, if one of the semi-confirms is town they won't have anyone to kill during night 5. (which will imply standard LYLO conditions), we if don't find a scum today or tomorrow, we lose.

You do need to look elsewhere than me, as I'm not the scum you're looking for, my vote is waiting to see what other people produce as their cases and to see what other facts I may have missed.
Lynch me if you want, but you will be in LYLO tomorrow.

Also from my post where I realised tha voting city for being a day 1 wagon was probably bad - "I've unvoted as I have just been thinking that we would be best to treat this as if it were MYLO between the 4 of today's lynchpool." - this means I am not happy having a vote out at the moment. I need more input from other players before going with my reads.

[Cheery Dog]

Also that's in order with City/Jason currently being my top guess, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[Paschendale]

There are 7 of us. Assuming a mislynch today and me night killed, that leaves 5. 5 is not LyLo.

[Paschendale]

There are 7 of us. Assuming a mislynch today and me night killed, that leaves 5. 5 is not LyLo.

Er... it is with 2 scum. Right...

Still, lynching you today is not a mislynch.

[HerrRudi]

I thought 2 scum 3 town would be lylo.

Pasch what do you think about lynching Johnny? He seems a bit like he's just flying under the radar right now IMO

P-Edit: Yay you figured it out

[Cheery Dog]

it's a mislynch because I'm town., if you want the rest of the town to be in 5p LYLO, whatever.

though this is going to get us nowhere, so I'm going to leave it here for today. (unless there is something valid you have to actually add)

[JasonWazza]

1

snipped because this post is just to long to bother reposting it now, it's just here so you can use the link if you want to see it

Jason's opening post (replace-in), only talks about Pasch, MissMaggot and one fluff post from wiibox. These slots are now confirmed/flipped town so this is even more suspicious than when I attacked this issue when it happened.

2

my eyes are really on you now, that sounds like you are just wanting to policy lynch ewo now.

This little bit after his vote seems uber scummy to me.

While I can see town seeing this, I can also see scum seeing this as a reason to keep me alive.

3

i just believe from my experience it is best not to claim until LYLO.

Also something that is worrying me from yesterday, massclaims at LYLO mean that now of the power roles can actually be proved (well I guess if it's 5p LYLO and you successfully lynch scum)

4

VOTE: Cheery Dog

I honestly don't think we should totally confirm the doc saves just in case there was a no kill, assuming that they attempted a kill N1 (which is most likely tbh) they may have risked being the doc's protect N2 for the WIFOM to seem confirmed.

You seem even more opportunist now that a wagon has built up on me, you were partly suspecting me all of yesterday, yet you chose other targets other than me or the main wagon then, and now both of those have become semi-confirmed town.
So are you suspecting Rudi again now?[/quote]

1) So i can't possibly be town and have had legitimate scum reads because they are all confirmed town in some way?
2) Is this your pathetic way of covering why you weren't killed?
Like seriously, that is bad.
3) Again

MY EXPERIENCE

and

Normally you don't claim before Day 3 because it is too soon

, nhammen has said the second one himself even.
4) So i can't suspect you and vote someone else?
I had other scum reads, apparently you have a problem with that.
For the rest of it basically it is 1 again

For suspecting Rudi I have slight suspicions but that is more based on i don't see why anyone would want to kill him Last night.

May i point out you seem to have very high double standards.

I am Scum cause i have voted for 3 confirmed town (wii, Herr (not really confirmed but for this), nhammen)
You aren't scum even though you have voted 3 of the confirmed town (wii, ewo, Pasch)

The main difference being i was only on 1 flipped and actually proven wagon, the other two are Semi-Confirmed by our town doctor.
You were on 2 flipped and proven town wagons and 1 Definite confirmed townie (Pasch is 100% CONFIRMED).

And i really don't like how you keep referring to yourself as town, that is up to the rest of us, not up to you.

[HerrRudi]

hmmm not buying Jason as scum much more. That's always been fleeting anyways on my part.

I'll vote Cheery or Johnny Today

[Paschendale]

Johnny does need to add his 2c.

[CityElectric]

I first want to know what anyone would gain from cases like Dog's on every unconfirmed player, except for that the wall post count of the thread will rise, before I start doing them. I'm not going to start on Dog's analysis of me, because it mainly refers to stuff we already went over D1. Unless someone really has a pending question about that.

Also, your possible scum-team list. Even if it's in the order of probability, it doesn't say all that much. Basically that every unconfirmed player is possibly on a scum team (no shit) and that you think Me/Jason is the most likely. Well, that really gave me some insight on your thought processes. (It didn't.) How far more likely is a Me/Jason team than Me/Johnny or Jason/Johnny to you? Also, what connection did we have again?

And i really don't like how you (Dog) keep referring to yourself as town, that is up to the rest of us, not up to you.

QFT

[Paschendale]

Nhammen, what do you think?

[JohnnyFarrar]

someone quit at my work this weekend and I've had to puck up all her slack. I may get to read tonight if I don't pass out.