Newbie 1289 - Game Over!

[Natural_river]

Hey,Natural_river--quick post.

Please don't mention other ongoing games.

This is a forum rule and you can be hewed out for it--and rightfully so, as while some references can be harmless enough, drawing a line as to what can influence other games is a very subjective matter.

Oopsee, didn't think this would be against the rules...
But will not do anymore

And Buldermar... for F's sake.
We're not trying to build the great wall of China.

[buldermar]

Hey,Natural_river--quick post.

Please don't mention other ongoing games.

This is a forum rule and you can be hewed out for it--and rightfully so, as while some references can be harmless enough, drawing a line as to what can influence other games is a very subjective matter.

Oopsee, didn't think this would be against the rules...
But will not do anymore

And Buldermar... for F's sake.
We're not trying to build the great wall of China.

The graphical presentation of quotes allows for the reader to quickly identify them as being such and adjust accordingly by skipping them if desired. In other words, the great wall of China merely takes one scrolling to overcome. Why is it an issue for you?

[Airick10]

Actually, that request isn't scummy at all. He is asking me to increase my activity level--how on earth does that read like scum to you, when a town IC that isn't pulling their full weight is one of the best gifts scum could hope for?

How is it not scummy? I find it to be a OMGUS style post. Honestly, I haven't seen that kind of a request in a game before. I am looking at you as a participant of the game, not as an IC and I do not expect your activity level to be any higher because of that label.

Natural_river - Yes, I quoted that one part of the message, but the rest of the message really implies that ovyo is lurking. I think that's a well known thing at this point. I'm not saying you are scum, but I'm asking a question in response to your vote.

I looked more into ovyo's posts, it seems to me like ovyo really had no clue what was going on.
ovyo jumped in a game that happened to have Tierce and buldermar in it. Both very fierce players, lots of text, lots of BOOM BAM BAM!
Honestly, I think that's why we don't see ovyo in this game anymore.

Also that and the fact that ovyo has also cancelled her ( she's a girl, yes ) second game as well due to "homework."
I don't think a beginner would think that far ahead to cover her tracks if she was mafia.
I don't know if it's homework stopping her, but I don't think she's mafia, I think she just has no idea what's going on really.

Agreed, I have my suspecions, but I think this is a good point to what may be really going on with ovyo.

Also, I agree with RedRabbit and do not see glaring scum in Deltabacon. Sure, I would like to see him focus on something other then Tierce's Sylvant/Oyvo and PaperSpirit read, but he's asking reasonable questions to me. I don't look at the "going to kick all your arses at mafia" from the first post of the game as anything legit.

[Deltabacon]

So a call for activity, at a point when I was contributing more than Buldermar (who was still spewing theory out his nostrils at that point) makes me odds-on scum? A jokepost as the first post of RVS makes me odds-on scum? That would make me laugh if it wasn't so tragic. Tierce, having been the subject of much of my discussion at that point, do you say I was contributing less than Buldermar, who was talking theory? Is me pushing on you not contributing in any way? No?

Consider the case of the informed minority. Tierce knew that Paperspirit's slot was town, because she's scum. How, in any other way, could she know he was 'obvtown'? You have to ask yourself if you're following the right person, ladies and gentlemen, because Tierce's unwillingness to co-operate with such a menial and unharmful issue shows that she clearly did not deduce Paper's 'obvtowniness' from tells, otherwise as an IC she surely would have put forward methods to help people learn. No, I surmise that Tierce is scum, who slipped in letting it loose that Paper was (from her informed viewpoint) town.

Furthermore, her case on me is derived from a single post from half the game ago, when I was calling for activity. Grandstanding? No, when I was able to keep up with the forums on an hourly basis at that time, and there was numerous hours between posts, I felt fully justified in putting out a standalone post calling for more activity. I don't see that as being any different than Buldermar requesting prods, except I was being more general. This makes me scum? Yeah, no. No it doesn't.

[buldermar]

Consider the case of the informed minority. Tierce knew that Paperspirit's slot was town, because she's scum. How, in any other way, could she know he was 'obvtown'? You have to ask yourself if you're following the right person, ladies and gentlemen, because Tierce's unwillingness to co-operate with such a menial and unharmful issue shows that she clearly did not deduce Paper's 'obvtowniness' from tells, otherwise as an IC she surely would have put forward methods to help people learn. No, I surmise that Tierce is scum, who slipped in letting it loose that Paper was (from her informed viewpoint) town.

I've considered this, and it's a legit point. In a game that just finished (I'm allowed to talk about finished games, right?), one of the winning scum players insisted on a read in a similar way. I don't have any reason to believe that Tierce wouldn't be capable of doing this. There also is the possiblity that she actually does have a townread and is withholding it. However, the only way to rule out the first option is to have her reveal what it is and I'd much rather have that happen than blindly trusting it's sincere. I'd still rather lynch Vendetta, but I can settle for Tierce (at least on the premise that the townread in question remains a secret).

[RedRabbit]

It's spelled " ovyo" btw.
But I've been getting my doubts about ovyo...
I looked more into ovyo's posts, it seems to me like ovyo really had no clue what was going on.
ovyo jumped in a game that happened to have Tierce and buldermar in it. Both very fierce players, lots of text, lots of BOOM BAM BAM!
Honestly, I think that's why we don't see ovyo in this game anymore.

My bad. I'll ammend the name.

Quite a lot of us hadn't a clue what was going on but two questions to Tierce about why she was voting for her slot, when it was plainly obvious that ovyo had nothing to do with the vote, made me think that she wasn't just in awe of Tierce or intimidated by Buldemar's vocabulary, it made me think she was nervous and couldn't see a way of getting people to unvote her, well, because she is scum.



@Buldemar: I won't quote it all again as I might upset N_R , but thanks for the quote. I still feel it's a bit of a petty vote but I can see how you came to go with it. It looks like a lot of effort just to get there. He called you on your style and voted, you continued to use that style, he called you on it again, you ignored the question and voted him. Amirite?

Anyway,
UNVOTE: unvote
VOTE: Ovyo

[izakthegoomba]

MrJamesWatson replaces ovyo.

Votecount 1.07

Deltabacon (3) - Tierce, fish-riding-a-bike-2000, Natural_river
buldermar (2) - vendetta21, Airick10
vendetta21 (2) - ovyo, buldermar
Tierce (1) - Deltabacon
ovyo (1) - RedRabbit
Airick10 (0) -

none

Natural_river (0) -

none

fish-riding-a-bike-2000 (0) -

none

RedRabbit (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (0) -

none

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline: (expired on 2012-10-18 11:36:09)

[RedRabbit]

I think I'm actually starting to see how Tierce came up with the "obvtown" on Paper/Fish.

The way I'm seeing it is: If Paper was newb and town and didn't really know how to play the game then it is more likely than not that he would have voted no lynch/waited to vote. It's a rookie mistake when playing this format.
If Paper was newb and scum and didn't really know how to play the game he would have voted randomly just to try and get a lynch of a townie or would have been instructed by his scum buddy to do so (i.e. not vote no lynch).

That he wasn't informed by someone else leads me to think that he was on his own, therefore town. Tierce could be scum and the informed minority, but there is another option. Her case for not telling what her read was specifically had little to do with what the read was or how she got it and more to do with the fact that she would not be bullied into giving somebody what they want just because they asked for it imo. I think this is the right move and goes some way to me trusting Tierce. It's actually why I called her on the exact same thing earlier. To see if she'd cave.

[Tierce]

So a call for activity, at a point when I was contributing more than Buldermar (who was still spewing theory out his nostrils at that point) makes me odds-on scum?

A jokepost as the first post of RVS makes me odds-on scum? That would make me laugh if it wasn't so tragic. Tierce, having been the subject of much of my discussion at that point, do you say I was contributing less than Buldermar, who was talking theory? Is me pushing on you not contributing in any way? No?

This

is deflection. And no, you weren't contributing that much more: you voted me because I wasn't explaining a read, and stuck to that vote. That is all you did, and painting it as if you were contributing more than that is a lie. You wanted to engage me, sure, but what about the other players in the game? That call for activity came at a time in which you weren't addressing anyone else and didn't bother to do so with what info you had.

Consider the case of the informed minority. Tierce knew that Paperspirit's slot was town, because she's scum. How, in any other way, could she know he was 'obvtown'?

You have to ask yourself if you're following the right person, ladies and gentlemen, because Tierce's unwillingness to co-operate with such a menial and unharmful issue shows that she clearly did not deduce Paper's 'obvtowniness' from tells, otherwise as an IC she surely would have put forward methods to help people learn.

No, I surmise that Tierce is scum, who slipped in letting it loose that Paper was (from her informed viewpoint) town.

This is nonsense. I don't

know

that the slot is town. But I have enough experience with players like him (I have 32 finished games on site) to be able to point out strong townreads at the start of a game. And

this

is blatant posturing. "Menial and unharmful issue"? When I've said that explaining it

during the game

is probably harmful to the Town?
(Also, don't expect scum to 'slip' in such way. It doesn't really happen unless we're talking about a really really really bad scum player.)

Furthermore, her case on me is derived from a single post from half the game ago, when I was calling for activity. Grandstanding? No, when I was able to keep up with the forums on an hourly basis at that time, and there was numerous hours between posts, I felt fully justified in putting out a standalone post calling for more activity. I don't see that as being any different than Buldermar requesting prods, except I was being more general. This makes me scum? Yeah, no. No it doesn't.

But you weren't posting at the time.

You chose to ignore the other players and focus solely on me, and instead of producing content with what was already posted (I have no idea about your reads on

anyone

but me), you just sat and complained about activity in general. Being "half the game ago" in no way changes the attitude/motivation behind that post; your alignment hasn't changed since, and if anything it has only become clearer that you aren't addressing the game at large.

Tierce could be scum and the informed minority, but there is another option. Her case for not telling what her read was specifically had little to do with what the read was or how she got it and more to do with the fact that she would not be bullied into giving somebody what they want just because they asked for it imo. I think this is the right move and goes some way to me trusting Tierce. It's actually why I called her on the exact same thing earlier. To see if she'd cave.

Mind you, obscuring info for the sake of obscuring info isn't good play. But obscuring info when you're convinced it's the right play to do

for the sake of the town

can be good play. And no, I don't have any special need to show I won't be bullied into explaining some reads, that was just a notice that you will get players doing so and it's not a scum-tell. In this case, it

does

have to do with the read and gamestate--there's no need for me to explain a read on a non-threatened player

and

explaining that read can be rather harmful to Town. I'd rather let scum wonder what is going on without any real certainty.

[MrJamesWatson]

Hello, I am new
I am going to read the posts, so I'll probably post tomorrow.
Any tips?

[Natural_river]

Buldermar, I wish for you to take an example of tierce's latest post.
Very handy to read, she cut out the pieces she was replying to.
I think quotes are very handy, use quotes, but is it so hard to cut out pieces?
I don't know what you're replying to if you have a huge wall,
I don't even want to know cause it's way too much work to read on entire conversation of 6 posts, just to see what you're saying next.
Just a simple request.

Redrabbit, I understand your view on ovyo, and am not going to go against it, cause in the end, I don't know for sure if my view on her was correct.

And I do agree with tierce that if you believe some sort of information might be harmful for town, it should not be revealed, but I don't think tierce did a great job concealing it.
Tierce, you mentioning that you had information about town that might be harmful for town is something I wouldn't recommend doing again, it only causes confusion.
I seriously can't understand how any information might be harmful for town.
I also can't understand your "obvtown" read, what else can make you so certain someone is town, other than going against the rules of the game?

But then again, these are just questions about your read on paperspirit, which you won't answer anyway, so me saying this seems like a waste of time.

Oh, and I see that mrjameswason is in the game.
Welcome, and a good tip would be umm...
1.)Think before you type.
And 2.) have fun.

[buldermar]

@Buldemar: I won't quote it all again as I might upset N_R , but thanks for the quote. I still feel it's a bit of a petty vote but I can see how you came to go with it. It looks like a lot of effort just to get there. He called you on your style and voted, you continued to use that style, he called you on it again, you ignored the question and voted him. Amirite?

You're not entirely wrong, but I think you're missing some of the crucial points. When he first made an inquiry, it was in a harsh tone, using an abundance of uncommon words despite deploring my use thereof (this is the ironic incongruity part). When I pointed this out, he blamed me for not ignoring incongruities made by him, for not responding to the small part of his post that wasn't mud throwing and asked questions specifically related to the discussion the ongoing of which he deplored.

[buldermar]

I think I'm actually starting to see how Tierce came up with the "obvtown" on Paper/Fish.

The way I'm seeing it is: If Paper was newb and town and didn't really know how to play the game then it is more likely than not that he would have voted no lynch/waited to vote. It's a rookie mistake when playing this format.
If Paper was newb and scum and didn't really know how to play the game he would have voted randomly just to try and get a lynch of a townie or would have been instructed by his scum buddy to do so (i.e. not vote no lynch).

That he wasn't informed by someone else leads me to think that he was on his own, therefore town.

I don't think scum partners are allowed conversation until night 1, but I'm not entirely sure. Tierce, can you confirm/disconfirm?

[fish-riding-a-bike-2000]

Naturel_river has a point actually, why is it that you're so certain of paperspirit's innocents? it is my slot i know, but i'm just wondering how you could be so certain of you're conclusion without having to cheat the game.

[fish-riding-a-bike-2000]

Last post was towards Tierce of course

[buldermar]

(Also, don't expect scum to 'slip' in such way. It doesn't really happen unless we're talking about a really really really bad scum player.)

FWIW you could do it intentionally as scum too - it wouldn't have to be a slip.

Buldermar, I wish for you to take an example of tierce's latest post.

Ok.

Very handy to read, she cut out the pieces she was replying to.

Yes, but if you actually read the posts I was quoting you'd know that there was no optimal pieces to cut out in this fashion.

I think quotes are very handy, use quotes, but is it so hard to cut out pieces?

No, but it is not always adequate to do.

I don't know what you're replying to if you have a huge wall,
I don't even want to know cause it's way too much work to read on entire conversation of 6 posts, just to see what you're saying next.

If I'm not cutting out anything, it either means that I think the difference between cutting out something or cutting out nothing is negligible, or that I nothing can be cut out without skewing the content that I'm replying to. You don't have to read the entire conversation of 6 posts every time, you can read it once and afterwards simply read the latest response.

Just a simple request.

I'm not going to change my posting style unless I see a good reason to, and I don't consider either of your reasons thus far good. Sorry, but repeatance and persistence will not work.

I seriously can't understand how any information might be harmful for town.

Here is an example (it may not be the most optimal example though). Suppose her read was triggered by a little mistake that most people wouldn't think about, like phrasing something in a certain way. If she discloses this, other people that she would otherwise get a good read on could adjust accordingly and either stop unintentionally doing the mistake, or start intentionally doing it. If she instead waits, she has the potential to make more such read on other players, or even getting an even better read on the player in question.

[Tierce]

I don't think scum partners are allowed conversation until night 1, but I'm not entirely sure. Tierce, can you confirm/disconfirm?

The scumteam is usually allowed to talk in their quicktopic during the confirmation phase, but not during Day 1.

Naturel_river has a point actually, why is it that you're so certain of paperspirit's innocents? it is my slot i know, but i'm just wondering how you could be so certain of you're conclusion without having to cheat the game.

...not this again. Go read my posts, I've explained why I'd rather not explain this. I am not going to explain this read when there is no threat to you. As for cheating, rest assured that my moral code is in good health and I would never do such a thing.

[vendetta21]

Naturel_river has a point actually, why is it that you're so certain of paperspirit's innocents? it is my slot i know, but i'm just wondering how you could be so certain of you're conclusion without having to cheat the game.

...not this again. Go read my posts, I've explained why I'd rather not explain this. I am not going to explain this read when there is no threat to you. As for cheating, rest assured that my moral code is in good health and I would never do such a thing.

Okay, this is an issue of contention that keeps coming up. I, for one, agree with DB and fish. I don't understand why you aren't able to divulge this information. I was going to let it go because of your repeated insistence that it was harmful, but now it is actually a move that I can't really follow your doggedness on. Whether or not you think it is harmful, this move is garnering attention from more than the possible number of wolves, and it is a lingering unrest for me personally. I think you should go into detail about why PaperSpirit was obvtown. I think it is time.

[Tierce]

It's not time at all. I'm not being voted, and neither is fish-riding-a-bike-2000--neither of our positions is an incentive to clear up that townread. Why is that one townread more important than the others I have given out?

[RedRabbit]

You're all not going to get it without voting her or Fish:

I'd rather let scum wonder what is going on without any real certainty.

[vendetta21]

It's not time at all. I'm not being voted, and neither is fish-riding-a-bike-2000--neither of our positions is an incentive to clear up that townread. Why is that one townread more important than the others I have given out?

Simply because the fact that you stated it made it a continuing object of interest to multiple people. I can't, and it seems others can't as well, flesh out your motivations there. The enigma surrounding it, if you have a legitimate basis, is causing others to spend time questioning your motives which in turn detracts from the hunt. I suppose you could clarify the need to state townreads without supporting them, i.e. why does you stating a townread without supporting it help the townie cause?

[Tierce]

Partially because of the way I scumhunt. I don't just look for behavior I see as coming from scum, I look for behavior I see as coming from town

over

what would be beneficial for those players if they were scum. Therefore, townreads are something important; while you shouldn't anchor yourself to your process of elimination, having a decent number of players you consider town can help narrow down the field of where to look for scum. As with scumhunting, townhunting is fallible, but hey, that's why no one has 100% records after a certain number of games.

I believe what you are wondering about is

why

I stated this townread if I had no intent in explaining it. I only called out my townread on PaperSpirit in reply to the questioning of my initial vote for Sylvant/ovyo/MrJamesWatson:

[Sylvant]

is the worst of the voters on someone who is obvtown

[PaperSpirit]

.

I was explaining a vote, and would otherwise have no interest in showing this townread that early.

What I keep wondering about is why is this townread more important in several players' minds than the others I have given since. Is it because it was an early one? Was it because of the wording 'obvtown'? Feel free to go through my finished games; I defend townreads to the hilt, occasionally explain them, occasionally don't--and what is important here is that I said PaperSpirit was town

because I was asked about a scumread

.

[Tierce]

You ask why it's not enough for me? Because it's screaming scumhood at me, and

Tierce's unwillingness to even contribute to other reads in any serious way serves only to reaffirm this

. I want to know why, and my vote will be stationary until I find out.

Wheeeee.

This

is a lie, and it gets better:

Does anyone know what reads Deltabacon has beyond me?
No?
Me neither.

Let's string him up.

[Natural_river]

No.
UNVOTE: Deltabacon

Tierce, you give me the heebiddygeebies.

And I'm starting to get my doubts about Deltabacon,
I don't know how you managed to get everyone to face Deltabacon, but you did.

It seems you feel the right to vote and call obvtown without further explanation calling it necessary for town that we don't know.
All you have caused is chaos, I guess in a way it starts discussion, but I don't think you're getting the right guy.
Buldermar hasn't contributed much either, not much reasons why he thinks who is who, just lots of theory talk...
I'm going to read over things today.
Gonna try to get me clear reads.
I'll post tonight.

[buldermar]

What I keep wondering about is why is this townread more important in several players' minds than the others I have given since.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am not in support of the current level of attention your read on Papers slot is getting. You not stating your reason does not definitely skew your alignment in either direction, and it is of no use without reason, because you're not a confirmed role. In short, the optimal thing to do is to ignore it until you're a candidate for being lynched, in which case the reasons could influence whether or not to lynch you (and, as such, can be expected to be given by you).