Ladies Night 2: No Cover -- (Game Over)

[springlullaby]

That's true, I missed it amidst the bleh talk about dayvig.
Because I wondered if you were one of those people who play without reading their PM.

[Fujiko]

VOTE: Sucrose

Counter wagon anyone?

No thanks.

Still prefer Apok lynch to RachMarie at this point, but I am more okay with either than with Sucrose.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Spring: Nope. Though I'd like to try that once if for no other reason than shits and giggles.

@Fujiko: Why not? What is your read on me? Did you read my wall?

[Fujiko]

@Fujiko: Why not? What is your read on me? Did you read my wall?

Until my eyes crossed, yes.

I read the part about me; I invite you to look at my past games. I always post like this.

I read the part about Sucrose; don't agree.
Some of us work on computers. As such, we're on line a lot - a post at a certain time doesn't hold much signal value.
I'm totally fine with post 161 - doesn't feel fake to me.
234: she knows the dayvig is fake and is playing along - she wants to see the reactions too. What's wrong with that?
Bunny vote: it directs some attention her way. I did essentially the same thing with RachMarie, so this isn't scummy to me at all....
Sucrose hammers: Prevent information? No way. We were getting no information from Telo. Frankly, I would have hammered by then if my vote wasn't already on the wagon. The non-claim was useless, scummy, a horrible meta, and just plain bad.

My read on you: Pretty null. Probably really stubborn but well-meaning town. I have not excluded scum, nor have I read the other parts of the wall.

[Sucrose]

Sucrose:

Honesty. I like it. This quote on the other hand:

You're right, I was sheeping your point, I only noticed the incident on re-read. It was a good find. I'm doubtful I would have noticed how few hours had passed between Piggy's post and Sea's on my own, because I usually never pay attention to timestamps.

Bothers me. Normally I'd say as I said before. Honesty is good. However, this feels fake and contrived for some reason. I guess because she added, "Good find." Not to repeatedly go into my meta (because everyone plays like I do, right?), but I know as scum I would often times agree with people because I figured the honesty would earn me town-cred. Much like what she did in the quote.

I have no defense for this other than to say I meant what I said.

In post #202 Sucrose says Piggy's posts are "legitimately scummy." Before this she had not mentioned finding Piggy scummy or any of her posts scummy. And then this quote. Oh gosh is it bad. We can tell from the Telo wagon that scum wanted to buss someone, one of their partners. That being said, Piggy was looking like a lynch earlier in the day. Assuming Piggy was scum, her partners could have bussed her, lynched her, and boom. It wouldn't have made what Sucrose said true at all, but it would have probably given her town cred (for whatever reason). After all, she's acting oblivious to the fact that there's day talk. Not to mention she's basically saying how much she's "buying into" the Piggy coaching stuff (though I think this may have been a jab at Piggy rather than referring to what was said earlier in the game - Piggy coaching her buddies). Meh. Just bothers me.

Yeah, I did think Piggy's posts were erratic and scummy. If she had been an experienced player making the same posts, I would have been all for lynching her. As to that second quote, I guess everyone here seems to think scum want to lynch their buddies D1 (which is a perfectly fine scum-plan). I think, even more so, though, that they usually like to let the town hang itself lynching a player who sticks out like a sore thumb D1. I've seen it quite a bit in my other games, I can link some if you don't believe me. For piggy the alarm bells were going off in my head both that "THIS POSTING IS OFF=SCUMMY" and "THIS IS AN EASY TARGET." Yeah, I missed the daytalk things the first time around. I was far from the only one. Your second interpretation of that quote was right, it was a jab at Piggy. I thought Camn's suggestion that Piggy was coaching her scumbuddies was nonsense, but I ignored it because of my town-read on Camn.

AND THEN AND THEN AND THEN THERE'S THIS JEWEL: post #234.

I don't see at all what's wrong with the quote. Isn't it obvious what I was doing?

But let us look at all of the posts referring to the dayvig.

<snip>

DGB, Sucrose, and Piggy were all on at the same time. There was about ten minutes between the first few posts (excluding DGB's original dayvig), and then the last one was made about forty minutes later. Of course this is pretty WIFOM, but they didn't make any posts after Piggy's claim even though (presumably) they were all online at the same time. This leads me to believe that a possible scenario is they're all scum partners (or at least two of them are), and were talking to each other via QT before each post was made. This is probably stretching. But meh. The time stamps seem a little too convenient to me. And in Sucrose's next post she doesn't touch on what she thinks of DGB's or Piggy's alignments when the entire gambit centered around them. That seems a little odd.

Why do you think that I was online when Piggy responded to the gambit? She responded 40 minutes after I last posted. I can't remember exactly what I was doing that day, but I'm sure I had long since left. I saw DGB's gambit and thought I'd try and play along to get info from Piggy. (I'd also forgotten there was daytalk, like I said earlier). Now, the

best

result would have been if Piggy-scum and responded with something really scummy in response to the gambit. By the time I came back, there was another half page of discussion and I thought City Electric and Telo's responses to the gambit were more interesting than the gambit itself, which IMO does not completely clear Piggy, it's just a point in that direction. I'd never been in the "Piggy is totally scum!" club in the first place. And, I will admit to sheeping DBG to some extent (except when I disagree). I

could

be getting buddied, but I'm going to trust my town read for now.

Moving on, wat. She votes Bunny after saying Fujiko and Telo are both highly scummy. She explains this by saying Bunny needs pressure. ... Telo had five votes on her by the time Sucrose made this post, and Fujiko had two. Bunny has zero. How is that going to pressure her? Later she says this. Though she also had stated that she found Telo and Fujiko legitimately scummy. Why would it be more beneficial for her to vote someone with no votes rather than someone with several? Especially when she found them all to be fairly scummy?

Because there was still a ways until the deadline, and Bunny had said very little, and I thought the little she had said was scummy. I wanted to hear her talk, and nobody had put any pressure on her before. I thought Telo and Fujiko were scummy, but not so scummy that I was sure either one of them should be the day's lynch yet.

My thought is probably because of what happens soon after: Sucrose hammers. It allowed her to prevent Telo from giving anymore information.

Now this, I don't understand at all. Telo was caught scum.

Nothing

caught scum says is useful, because they know they're caught and anything they say is pure WIFOM. Scum doesn't have any reason to shut their partners up, either, unless they think they're going to blow the game, which is ridiculous.

A few other comments:

Rach:

Second, I don't like her statement,

"I just do not see anyone, even a very experienced player doing the fake dayvig thingy as scum."

I don't understand why that would seem implausible even from an inexperienced player. I mean, it's a pretty safe gambit. All you have to do is say what DGB said. I don't think Rach's statement makes sense from a scum point-of-view unless DGB is her partner, though (this doesn't mean that Rach can't be scum if DGB isn't scum. This just means that the statement is only worrisome if DGB is scum too).

Disagree. Pointing out that a very town player is town is something scum do all the time. In fact I think the opposite, scum would be unlikely to say this about a scum partner doing a Dayvig gambit, it sticks out too much. I agree that the attention given to the other between Rach and Telo looks bad, and there's more to it than you've pointed out. (see earlier posts about Rach)

Apokalyptika:

Overall, I think the amount of replacements is indicative of town (I disagree with you guys - I've never replaced into a scum slot before, and I'M IN THE NEWBIE QUEUE WHERE PEOPLE ARE LIKELY TO FREAK OUT OVER THE PRESSURE). There's a lack of participation in all of them that makes me think they aren't scum, as well. I'd think scum would be more likely to try and stick it out, but then get too caught up or upset over the pressure. But also, guys, there's day talk. The pressure can't be that hard on scum when their buddies are likely coaching them every step of the way. No, the replacements are indicative of null at worst, town at best.

Ohhh, I have to majorly disagree with this. As a matter of fact, in the first Ladies Night I (kinda accidentally) flaked out as scum for that exact reason, and that game had Daytalk.

I'd post more about the last 2 pages, but I have to go to class, be back in a bit.

[DrippingGoofball]

First, she promises reads and never delivers (nor brings it up again, actually).

= LAZY SCUM

From the time of her vote to the time of the hammer she didn't question Telo at all. She didn't push her. She didn't interact with her at all.

= BUS'ING

She didn't have those, "She's scum, guise" reads. She had, "I think she's scum, but she did do this, so I could be wrong" type of reads.

= BUS'ING

Hey, this

is

good. RM is scum, we're lynching her.

VOTE: RachMarie

Maybe I have brain damage right now but I really don't see what's a scumtell in this post. ><

[DrippingGoofball]

Tracey's town. Her thoughts about people read town and she didnt feel the need to go into reasons why a couple of her town reads were town, sure they're not controversial town reads but still. If she's scum here she has a talent for not shallow reading which a lot of experienced scum don't have. Her reads read in depth in a way I really only expect from town.

She's town for another reason, a big one, that game to me while I was in the shower. NEVER LYNCH TRACEY. OR SUCROSE. Not even after I'm dead, ladies.

[DrippingGoofball]

camn is town cause it's camn and there can only be 3 scum left, and she doesn't fit in the pool.

Pretend you're a salesman, and I'm arguing that she doesn't fit in the town pool. Sell me on why she does, because if I wasn't so ready to lynch rachmarie, camn would be the one I'd be pushing right now.

I fully support this notion. If RM flips scum, you HAVE to lynch camn. I may not be there to remind you.

[DrippingGoofball]

no white knight here.
I will hammer just for the flip..... But I am not terribly into Rach as a lynch.
Luckily, I'm not that into her as a great endgame candidate either. At this point, if she IS town, and makes it to endgame.... we lose.

RACHMARIE- CLAIM OR DIE

And besides..
1- Im town
2- push away, you dont have it in you.

Argh

I like this post - keep wavering.

[DrippingGoofball]

There was something i wanted to say about telo wagon. Normally, it would be pretty STUPID for the scumteam to bus their PR on day 1.

You kidding me? Day 1 is the best day to bus your weak buddy, and get some town-cred at little cost. Weak buddies aren't worth defending, but they're worth their weight in gold for towncred. I like to cash in right away.

RachMarie failed to claim. She's probably waiting to get a clue in the QT.

[Eidolon]

I just thought i'd make a list to help clear my own head.

Towny:

Piggy
Brandi
Tracey
Tammy
DGB
Springlullaby
Amrun
sucrose


not sure:

seastorm
fujiko

Slight scum:

huntress
camn
rachmarie

scum scum:

apokalyptika


I still think apakalyptika is a better lynch option than rach. I think there's more evidence to back it up. the replace ins, the opportunistic pressure without a vote from katy at telo, apakalyp's poor reads, no pressuring, fake scumhunting, evading giving reads when asked.

That being said, rach should claim. i'm not sure what the vote count is, but i don't think apaka is getting as much traction, and i don't mind switching if it comes down to it.

[Sucrose]

Alright, follow up:

Although I disagree (strongly) with several of Tracey's reads, it occurs to me that her strange idea that I was around during the entirety of the Dayvig gambit is

probably

a thought coming from a town player. Reason: I think she was looking at the conversation through the lens of thinking DGB and I were scum-partners coordinating our posts. Scum, of course, would know that's not true, and thus would probably correctly interpret my not immediately responding to Piggy's claim simply as me having gone offline. The only way I think Tracey's thought-process on it makes sense is if Tracey legitimately thinks DGB and I are scum. In other words, she's town.

I could be horribly wrong on this, but it's a hunch.

Rach should claim. Now.

I guess nobody likes my vig idea. I still don't see why we can't vig Rach and run up Apocalyptika. The vig power can't be limited-shot.

[Tammy]

Not liking the sucrose wagon that's springing up.

I just reread through Telo and apoka's slot and rach. Still have a scum read on rach though there are some things that read a bit genuine. Someone brought up the different ways that Telo treated rach and apoka in the way she demanded proof from apoka's slot but ignored rach. I'm starting to be of a mind that this makes it more likely that shes partners with apoka over rach. I can see newbscum being a bit too nervous to confront town, but perfectly content to confront her partner who probably gave her a heads up and told her to interact with her. If rach read more town to me, this would be the scenario I would think was most likely.

Even though some of rach's posts read genuine, I just can't get to town for her. I would really like to know what reaction of telo's made rach feel so much more comfortable about her vote in Post 382. It has nothing to do with her not being warmed up yet, but with her saying things that don't fit with the game or experience and promising to do things that never come and not answering questions addressed to her.

Agree with dgb on Post 758 in that I liked that post to a degree of camn's. My main problem with camn is a lack of real scumhunting. She's calling people scum, but it more looks like who she can get lynched rather than who is scum. I'm just not getting a sense that she's trying to honestly determine people's alignments.

Also agree on the bussing issue with Telo. If I had been her partner and saw how she was playing, I'd have bussed that quick and early. Also, most people are going to think there wouldn't be early bussing because of her being the only pr and people often bank on that.

[DrippingGoofball]

Hey all, looking forward to playing. I'm rereading as we speak.

This player slot does indeed need death.

[Tammy]

She does indeed. I'm trying to figure out if it's likely for both rachmarie and apoka to be mafia.

[DrippingGoofball]

Telo, RachMarie, Apokalyptika & camn.

[camn]

If I were scum I would have bussed Telo even quicker AND earlier!

[Eidolon]

If I were scum I would have bussed Telo even quicker AND earlier!

so then who did that and why aren't you pressuring them?

[camn]

Not everyone is as good of scum as me
And really.. I think I was clear. I think the scum were LATE on the Telo wagon.

Was I unclear about that? really? Or are you just picking up anything you see?

[camn]

Also... although I AM backing off now (I too am under the GoofSpell).. are you also characterizing the last couple days with Tracy as not-pressure? This is a real question.

[Eidolon]

Not everyone is as good of scum as me
And really.. I think I was clear. I think the scum were LATE on the Telo wagon.

Was I unclear about that? really? Or are you just picking up anything you see?

Well there we go. blatant cognitive dissonance. Another scum caught.

If you see scum motivation in being early on the wagon, theres no reason you should think scum were late to the wagon.

Just because you think you are good at being scum doesn't mean scum are full of bad players who would only bus predictably late and weakly.

You are purposefully underestimating all the other players to make your viewpoint seem consistent.

Town wouldn't do that.

[Eidolon]

Also... although I AM backing off now (I too am under the GoofSpell).. are you also characterizing the last couple days with Tracy as not-pressure? This is a real question.

puting words in my mouth. nice.

no, i asked why you weren't pressuring anyone for the scumtell that you mentioned.

[camn]

/yawn.

[camn]

actually.. I have had a change of heart--- Tammy.. PLEASE LYNCH ME.

Anything to get away from this incredible lack of critical thinking.
ANYTHING.

[camn]

Well there we go. blatant
If you see scum motivation in being early on the wagon, theres no reason you should think scum were late to the wagon.

I DONT. Thats why I do it as scum. Because it is so anti-scum, it snookers the town.

Just because you think you are good at being scum doesn't mean scum are full of bad players who would only bus predictably late and weakly.
You are purposefully underestimating all the other players to make your viewpoint seem consistent.

Except most of them are. Are you areguing that the scum ARE in the front of the wagon.. and I am intentionally avoiding them? (another question. Note the difference between questions and 'putting words in your mouth'). Or Do you think what you actually just wrote.. that I am underestimating people?

Town wouldn't do that.

I just did.

Now seriously- you dont need to answer my questions defensively.. you should ask them of yourself.
Do you think I am protecting someone... or that I am arrogantly underestimating people? You cant have both. Either I really think the scum suck.. and I am looking for them... or I AM the scum, and I know who my partners are..... and almost all of your post is irrelevant.
I honestly wonder which it is?

Because if you are town.. you aren't thinking critically, which is bad for us.
If you are scum, you are using these superficial quasi-logics to setup a crapcase.