Mini 1398 - Game Over!

[jmo16mla]

Yeah hey duders ICEninja is the scum.

What are your thoughts on bacde?

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count #9

Bacde (6) - Nachomamma8, Disturbed_One, absta101, Mirhawk, Jabberwock, ICEninja

ICEninja (2) - McStab, Dunhamganger
Jabberwock (1) - iamausername
Disturbed_One (1) - jmo16mla
McStab (1) - RedRabbit
Shamrock (1) - Bacde

Not Voting (1) - Shamrock

Deadline is in: (expired on 2012-12-15 00:00:00)

13 alive, 7 to lynch.

Mod, can I request replacement due to his only post in the past 8 days being a promise to catch up?

RedRabbit's time to respond to the prod expires in just under 24 hours. I'd prefer to just follow procedure and wait for that time to expire before seeking replacement.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah hey duders ICEninja is the scum.

I hope this wasn't the promised post.
I really, really hope it wasn't.

[jmo16mla]

Plus he used my quote:(

[Jabberwock]

Hey guys

guys

wheeeeeee


Mr. Lucky is everywhere but here.


Man, it must suck to dislike being scum more than

we

do. We're sorry you feel that way, and sympathize. Being Town rocks our scaly socks. Town rules, scum drools. But you're really really scum and we'll laugh as we hang you from the rafters. Is that okay with you?

[Bacde]

Hey Guys,

Sorry about being gone for about a day. I can see there's a big ol' bandwagon on me. I'll give you my defense and my reads and my and my claim:

Ok so first of all I want to say that I can tell I'm really bad at this game. The only two games I've played in the past month (since like 6 years ago), I get strung up and bandwagoned d1 and my credibility is destroyed. Thats all the meta there exists on me pretty much. I'm much more used to epicmafia where finding mafia is much less based on finding logical fallacies and more based on gut reads and seeing HOW people play rather than the specifics they say. I can understand you not liking me playing this way (especially with my joke "bulletpoint" case on nachomamma, which is apparently scummy).

It seems like a lot of people here want me lynched because they disagree with my read on nachomamma8. Thats ok. I think Nacho is scum. This is mostly gut, but I gave a lot of my reasonings as well. Take em or leave em. He's playing way too cautiously and underhandedly to be town.

Here are my other reads

Town

Jabberwock
jmo16mla
absta101
Dunhamganger
iamausername
ICEninja
Mcstab
redrabbit
Mirhawk
disturbed_one
shamrock
nachomamma8

Scum

If there's any logical fallacy in there you want to pick out and laugh at me about, go ahead. These are my reads as of right now.

Claim:

I'm a bodyguard. On epicmafia bodyguards have a chance of killing an attacker but in this game the role is shitty and I'll always die instead of the attacker. So I'm pretty much going to die no matter what. I'd rather not be lynched though, but hey thats true for everyone. I'm not going to hammer on myself.

[absta101]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Ice
Your last post was a bit over defensive.
I need time to look at this slot more.

[ICEninja]

For the record I'm not really convinced by that claim, but a day 1 PR claim is usually worth putting off even if they're obvscum. Yeah I'm fine with a Shamrock lynch.

Unvote, vote Shamrock

.

[Alduskkel]

Prodded McStab, again.

Starting to think I might need double replacements.

[Disturbed_One]

@ absta:

Mind explaining? I did not get that from Ice's last post.

What's typically the claim procedure in these sort of games, if the scum claim a town PR? I've never played in a mini before, so I'm wondering what we should do next.

[absta101]

Well i've just learned that bodyguards are usually town. If he's alive tomorrow we can make a decision on wether to lynch him or not.

I forgot about Shamrock... I'll vote him if he looks more scummy than IceNinja in my re-read.

[iamausername]

you know how sometimes you fall a bit behind on a game, so you start writing a catch-up post but don't finish it for whatever reason, and then when you come back to finish it a whole lot more stuff has happened and all the stuff you've already typed seems kind of irrelevant, so you start over, and basically you just keep doing that over and over in an endless cycle.

don't do that. forget the minutae and just focus on the one or two most important occurences. in this case, that's obviously the Bacde wagon, which is a bad wagon.

Bacde's case on Nacho is hella dumb, but there's no scum motivation behind it. scum don't just randomly bail on a popular wagon to bullheadedly attack one of the most experienced players in the game against massive resistance on all sides. that is very much the behaviour of a town player who is convinced they've caught scum and can't understand why no one else sees what they see.

UNVOTE: Jabberwock

the way Dire_Drenz replaced out definitely looks town, and Jabberwock feels town to me in spite of the fact that i disagree with basically everything they've said.

VOTE: Mirhawk

case in point. there is scum to be found on the Bacde wagon, that's a no brainer. Disturbed_One remains an excellent candidate, for sure, but i've been getting some nagging gut rot reading Mirhawk's recent posts.

To be perfectly honest, I read it a second time. It seemed strong the first time I read it, but upon refection the particular points Nacho had seemed rather weak. I still think its non-contradictory, and an okay post in general, but his case isn't very compelling.

i'm just having real trouble buying this. look at the time stamps.

Dec 1st, 2:20 AM (your timezone may vary)

His initial case against bacde was well supported and I feel nothing he has said since then has in any way contradicted his earlier statements.

Dec 1st, 4:43 AM

I must admit however, I am colored on this because as I read the exchange Nacho ripped everything you said apart. In my eyes this makes Nacho look better and you worse. This doesn't take into account the fact that Nacho might just be better at debate. Nothing Nacho has said make him look particularly like town or scum in my eyes.

Dec 1st, 4:57 AM

Nacho's original case on you was quite bad, and in fact until you started responding to Nacho's claims I had a town read on you.

when exactly in the two and a half hours between posts 183 and 189 did Mirhawk go back and read Nacho's initial case again? and what exactly prompted it? i don't know about you, but when i see someone make a "well-supported" case and proceed to "rip apart" everything the defendant says, my first instinct is definitely not to go back and scrutinize the original case and check that my initial assesment of its well-supportedness was correct. and if i did do that, i'm pretty sure i'd mention in some way that i'd done it, and not just state that the original case was bad as if that was what i'd thought the whole time? idk, maybe that's just me.

some other bits that give me minor indigestion:

Unvote

Sorry about that ICE, I've just been using you as a parking lot. I haven't entertained any serious notions of you being scum since page five.

find it very strange that he personally adresses iceninja here, when most everything else he's posted, especially with regards to his vote, has been third person. feels like an attempt to build some false camaraderie with iceninja. probably not a

deliberate

attempt; i don't think he's made a meticulously thought out devious plan to address iceninja in the second person in order to win his trust or anything. but i do think it could be an unconscious revelation of his true motivations.

Nacho hasn't done anything anti-town.

why 'anti-town' rather than 'scummy'? strikes me as a really odd choice of words in the situation.

I can't accept this reasoning unless you can explain why town-Mirhawk

wouldn't

make this comment.

bit of a 'caught me for the wrong reasons'-style tell here; this statement implies that there is a reasoning to call Mirhawk scum that he

would

accept.

...maybe i've just found it.

[Jabberwock]

Town

Jabberwock
jmo16mla
absta101
Dunhamganger
iamausername
ICEninja
Mcstab
redrabbit
Mirhawk
disturbed_one
shamrock
nachomamma8

Scum

Explain these.

One rather notable question for extra credit: we definitely noted you had several people suspecting you before we voted you. There are several points in our case that are similar to points raised against you already. So why is Nacho your top scumread, and we are your top Townread? That makes no sense, as we are 'guilty' of what you accused Nacho of. Why is it scummy of him to act like that, but we are immediately hailed as Town?


@Disturbed_One: Not quite sure what you mean. If you believe that his play makes sense for his claim, vote another scum suspect. If you don't believe the claim, it's a viable lynch. If you're saying that you are a Bodyguard yourself and thus Bacde is likely full of crap (unlikely to have two Bodyguards in this setup), it's time to speak up yourself.


As it is, surviving Nights for too long would quickly become suspect for Bacde-scum, if people keep dying instead of him. I would like explanations on those reads before doing anything else, though.


iaaun, thoughts on Shamrock please and thank you.

[ICEninja]

Username actually made a particularly good point against Mirhawk regarding the timestamps. I am very interested to see how this is responded too.

In the mean time, I'm still quite happy with my Shamrock vote.

[Bacde]

Town

Jabberwock
jmo16mla
absta101
Dunhamganger
iamausername
ICEninja
Mcstab
redrabbit
Mirhawk
disturbed_one
shamrock
nachomamma8

Scum

Explain these.

At the top are people I read as town, and at the bottom are people I read as scum.

You seem to have completely skipped over where I pointed out that I'm much more interested in the WAY people play, rather than the specifics they say. You know as well as I do that the same behaviors can be understood as town or scum, depending on their circumstances. In this instance you hopping on the me bandwagon is obviously town play.

Dire_Drenz replacing out of the game was a very towny move, and you are way too aggressive and sure of your playstyle to be scum, so you are obviously town. You are also putting in too much effort into this game to be scum. I'm talking about you in the singular.

I know you think you are really good at this game but you can't conjecture about finding all of the scum before we see some flips. Once people flip maf or town, its easier to find the last mafs based on looking at interactions between players. You even pointed out that I play by looking at players' interactions; there's a reason I think that this is the best way to find mafia.

You seem to be happy about voting Shamrock--and the case on him is even more compelling than when I first voted him. Why not move your vote over to him? I don't understand how he can be lurking and still post aggressive things like "this post is horrible" without being scum.

Don't worry, in time I'm sure you'll come around about Nacho. I've already explained why he is scum, but I could do it again if you want.

[Jabberwock]

By "explain these" I mean "explain all your reads and why they are in that specific order". I know what the list format means.

Hunting from "interactions" is useless when you don't have solid ground to stand on re: individual alignments. Those "scum v. Town" reads are just excuses to line up mislynches.

[Disturbed_One]

Not sure I believe Bacde, really. In a situation like this, it wouldn't have been outlandish for him to take a gamble and claim bodyguard. Claiming VT probably wouldn't have protected him - every game I've ever played where someone claimed VT, that person was typically lynched. So maybe he figured he was busted anyway and decided to risk getting CC'd.

That said, I like where Jabber is going with these questions and I don't want to unvote just yet.

[iamausername]

iaaun, thoughts on Shamrock please and thank you.

well, he's posted literally nothing of substance, not even a vote, and he's intentionally avoiding this game

what's not to love

[Mirhawk]

Unvote

I don't think bacde is lying about his claim. As far as fakeclaims go this would be a fairly shitty one as it could be potentially CC'ed be either another bodyguard or a Doctor, and Doctors are fairly common.

Vote: Shamrock

He's on the site every day. That's pretty bad.

@iam
Why would I not go back and look at that post again in those two hours. I obviously had enough time to do so judging from the time stamps. Additionally I was arguing with bacde about his and Nacho's interactions during the time in question, Nacho's case is a part of that. I reread that stretch of posts a more than once during that period.

Are you accusing me of accidentally buddying up to ICE? Because I don't think buddying is a scumtell unless it's on purpose.

As for that last bit, I think it's obvious that you can't make an argument for why something is scummy unless there is a reason that town wouldn't do it.

[Shamrock]

Hey guys

guys

wheeeeeee


Mr. Lucky is everywhere but here.


Man, it must suck to dislike being scum more than

we

do. We're sorry you feel that way, and sympathize. Being Town rocks our scaly socks. Town rules, scum drools. But you're really really scum and we'll laugh as we hang you from the rafters. Is that okay with you?

I've been lurking/one-linering in all my games except Dresden for the last few days

[Shamrock]

absta why are you being so useless this game. (ha ha hypocrisy lol)

Why is this question helpful to you (considering you're being useless)?
I've played two games with you, one scum, one town. I wasn't 'useful' in the town one so which game are you referring to?

More useful than in this one.

The argument between jmo/dist was ongoing but neither side was gaining any momentum or votes or anything. What is scum-Mirhawk losing from spinning it into an attack on absta instead?

I can't accept this reasoning unless you can explain why town-Mirhawk

wouldn't

make this comment.

it's not a reason for thinking you're scum. it's just not a good reason for thinking you're town.

Shamrock, explain your power-lurking. Jabber proved you've been online, why have you been neglecting this game?

While you're at it, a list of your reads would be nice.

I keep seeing this game and going "I'll do it later" and then not doing it.

What do you need a list of reads for?

@ absta:

Mind explaining? I did not get that from Ice's last post.

What's typically the claim procedure in these sort of games, if the scum claim a town PR? I've never played in a mini before, so I'm wondering what we should do next.

I've made this post, like, almost verbatim as scum before.

VOTE: Disturbed

[Disturbed_One]

Bahahahaha.

I suggest if you want that vote to hold any water that you reference the game and post in which that happened.

I want a list for the same reason I wanted a list from Bacde. You're a scum suspect.

Unvote: Bacde
Vote: Shamrock

Post your reads, sir. I have no problem lynching you before we lynch Bacde.

[Bacde]

Hunting from "interactions" is useless when you don't have solid ground to stand on re: individual alignments. Those "scum v. Town" reads are just excuses to line up mislynches.

I've been saying that I think jmo is town all game. I don't understand why you think I am posturing for mislynches.

@Jabberwock what is your read on Shamrock/Disturbed and the way they just talked?

[Mirhawk]

it's not a reason for thinking you're scum. it's just not a good reason for thinking you're town.

So you're saying that this isn't a scumtell or a towntell?

Why did you bring it up then?

[Alduskkel]

Going to go ahead and start looking for replacements for McStab and RedRabbit. I might allow the former to come back if he posts really damn soon with some content in the next 5 hours.