Mini 1398 - Game Over!

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count #18

Cheery Dog (2) - ICEninja, Bacde
Rob13 (1) - Cheery Dog
Melmond (1) - Jabberwock
absta101 (1) - Nachomamma8
jmo16mla (1) - iamausername

Not Voting (5) - Melmond, Mirhawk, absta101, jmo16mla, Rob13

Deadline is in: (expired on 2013-01-01 16:30:00)

11 alive, 6 to lynch.

[Rob14]

A lot of it is responses that were specifically asked for. I feel no need to respond to less things as a result of not being able to post more frequently lately. I would encourage you to at least skim it for your name (mostly in the form of quotes) and look at what I wrote in direct response to you. If you don't want to read it though, don't. That's your prerogative. I'm not going to write another post just to single out the things that were direct responses to you. I trust your ability to operate the Ctrl+F function of your browser.

[jmo16mla]

Rob, you are giving a hell of a lot of details, but no info.

I'm still forming reads, its quite hard to with 11 people to look at and ive never played in a game this large and ive been pretty busy in RL.

I agree that Bacde isnt the lynch today because sooner or later(as said earlier) he will be killed (we hope) because he sucessfully protects someone at night. if he isnt killed and the game gets down to a low number of people, then we may need to revisit him.

@Rob, I see a town attitude in you. Youre analyzing what seems to be almost every bit of detail, be it right or wrong, youre doing it, so youre scum hunting which is town like. find more info.

As pointed out in 425, yes, by Bacde, Cheery said "my current scum reads are pretty much level with the current thoughts of the town. " I'm not sure exactly what he meant by this, but how does he know town from scum? he also hadnt directly answered this yet. Id like to get his response.

Iam has played in quite a number of games on site, although ive never played any games with him, id like to think he is a better player than in 12, and 412. Especially the last one.

After Isoing melmond, he remains null to me. I can see how he was very cautious and against the lynch of shamrock, but then again so was cheery(and im sure a couple other people were worried about lynching without a claim) I'm not exactly sure on jabs place holder vote, or erm, i just dont know the real reason.

[Cheery Dog]

I don't think Bacde's vote put much pressure on Shamrock. With it did do was twofold. First, it served to allow Bacde to put his vote in a position that is totally non-controversial. I mean, no one would argue with him for wanting lurkers to speak up, especially in this game. This could lessen pressure on him or at least prevent an increase in pressure, and he was certainly under fire.

Second, it served as a subtle indicator to Shamrock that he needed to get his ass in the game, which was definitely true at this point. No real pressure was put on Shamrock by this vote because Bacde didn't provide any case against Shamrock - he identified him as a lurker, which was going to happen anyway.

Also, Bacde was trying to put pressure onto Nacho for much of the end of that day. He also didn't keep his vote or pressure on Shamrock. I don't think he intended to put real pressure on Shamrock, and the pressure certainly didn't come from him. The real case on Shamrock came from others.

Though why would be have chosen his scumbuddy out of the other lurkers at that stage, such as RedRabbit (now me) or dumhamanger (now you)?
If either of those happened (looking from what you call your perspective as town - though I currently don't believe you are), wouldn't he have got a mislynch if town went for a lynch all lurkers policy?
His vote stayed on Shamrock for the rest of the day after he placed it (at least according to the votecounts, and since it was at the front of the wagon the whole time, I'm fairly sure it didn't move) Shamrock was also still lurking and not interacting with anybody, so what actually is the problem and/or scum motivation from hunting someone else while the person you're voting isn't actually active enough to even be pressured?

Post #53 - Absta is super town.

I'm not seeing this from that post, it still is just a weird post to me (and in my reasoning for voting absta yesterday), what makes absta super town?

VOTE: Disturbed

Hit a wall with jmo, i'd be okay with a lynch of him.

This post struck me as an attempt to see how Disturbed reacted to pressure because he hadn't been under pressure from anyone but iam yet. Absta kind of sided with Disturbed against JMO early on. I think this is an appropriate reaction to the JMO argument, which wasn't getting Absta or Disturbed anywhere, and the fact that Disturbed's switch to ice was a bit odd and deserved looking at.

A few things that need further explaining then.
1. Why was Disturbed's Ice vote not in your notes then?
2. The post before it by jmo in your first post says that jmo had just outed himself as scum, why is reacting the way Absta did appropriate against someone you say had just outed themselves as scum?
3. How do you know the switch was because Disturbed vote worth looking into?
4. How does voting the other person that was pressing on your suspect make sense when they may not have hit the wall yet?

In response to Posts 410 and 411: I don't think a doc should claim until the day before LyLo. If the doc is NK'd, then we lynch Bacde the next day and he's no longer a problem as scum. If the doc makes it to the day before LyLo, then he more days to try to prevent a NK (and hopefully succeed) and he still calls out Bacde and Bacde dies. We are down one scum either way, but a doc waiting to claim gives us a higher chance of a protect.

Better idea is to be able to not get to LYLO in the first place and get rid of confirmed scum. If a doctor claims the day before LYLO, I'm going to have a lot more trouble believing them than if they claimed now.

Watch out with this reasoning. It's WIFOM. I've used this exact reasoning to kill someone before as scum. See Newbie 1295. I killed N because I had pressured him all day and felt I had nowhere left to go with attacking him. I then argued that I would never have killed N because it left me with little chances of winning in LyLo when the other two players were people that I had said were strong town reads of mine all agme. I wound up winning mostly because the confirmed-town casting the deciding vote didn't think that it was likely that I performed both that gambit and another where I claimed to accidently have soft-claimed (when in reality I soft-claimed VT somewhat on purpose).

Day 3 (also day before LYLO) is different to day 1 where scum would be able to come back to an old read at a later date.
I do agree that killing those you can't see attack options on can work as scum heading into LYLO, I did it myself. (and then was suspected due to be too town, and that I was the only one to benefit from it. (which I was, yet I somehow won), but it probably is different since I was hard buddying my victim of captaineddie up until I killed him)

That would be reading take because out was, as per my second line of said post.

If I had actually wanted to hammer,i would have done so anyway even with someone requesting that we didn't hammer straight away. I don't think I ever use emotes seriously.

Please explain the bolded sentence. Not sure if English.
I didn't check what words my phone had chosen with swype, I had meant to write "That would be reading fake because it was, as per why my second line of said post"
The second line being

Actually I wasn't because I'd like to get further into this game than I currently am before going into lynch mode

Actually I wasn't because I'd like to get further into this game than I currently am before going into lynch mode
Also, please supply an example of you using an emote in a town game. A few, if possible.

I don't know how this would help you since it's me talking as a person and not a player but whatever; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4439793 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4453282 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4464677 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4204164

Spoiler: Usage of emotes post game/final twilight

These are just here in case they also somehow help.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4484714
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4419323
This one gets a link because it's actually a use in scum game if you're comparing notes, still postgame though

Most of the emotes I'm talking about not being serious are those I've used in other parts of the site, most of my games don't have any. (though there were a few not smilies on the side of the reply box in some of them, I was only scrolling my games for those that are listed as smilies, I don't see the point in you asking me to do this so I'm not going to have put that extra effort to actually read all my old posts for emotes - I just scanned them all while quickly scrolling through the thread)

Can't respond to what I haven't read yet. Sorry?

I assumed you had read them after your Post 385 where you had said you would answer questions the next day and that you had responded to my Post 393 meaning you were keeping up with at least that part of the thread.

[Cheery Dog]

As pointed out in 425, yes, by Bacde, Cheery said "my current scum reads are pretty much level with the current thoughts of the town. " I'm not sure exactly what he meant by this, but how does he know town from scum? he also hadnt directly answered this yet. Id like to get his response.

I deemed it not worthy of response because what was bolded was what I was thinking, and wasn't aware it needed to be explained. (it's not like anyone went off and quoted my post saying my reads of the major wagons later in the day and calling it contradicting to it, then maybe it would have had a point (it would have been a wrong point, but still actually a point which is not gained by just bolding a section of a post and calling it a rabbit hole))
But for you people that apparently need easy to understand bits of posts explained - I agreed with all the major wagons that had been happening while I was reading through this thread after I replaced in. I also agreed with when they disbanded, thus my scum reads were about level with that of the towns.
There is a chance that they may have been scum-lead, but since I had not identified anyone pushing those wagons with scummy means, it means I believe they were town-lead, ergo the town's scum reads.

[ICEninja]

Good

GOD

that's a lot of shit to read. I'll get through it, I promise, but it's not the highest thing on my priority list right now...

[Rob14]

I don't think Bacde's vote put much pressure on Shamrock. With it did do was twofold. First, it served to allow Bacde to put his vote in a position that is totally non-controversial. I mean, no one would argue with him for wanting lurkers to speak up, especially in this game. This could lessen pressure on him or at least prevent an increase in pressure, and he was certainly under fire.

Second, it served as a subtle indicator to Shamrock that he needed to get his ass in the game, which was definitely true at this point. No real pressure was put on Shamrock by this vote because Bacde didn't provide any case against Shamrock - he identified him as a lurker, which was going to happen anyway.

Also, Bacde was trying to put pressure onto Nacho for much of the end of that day. He also didn't keep his vote or pressure on Shamrock. I don't think he intended to put real pressure on Shamrock, and the pressure certainly didn't come from him. The real case on Shamrock came from others.

Though why would be have chosen his scumbuddy out of the other lurkers at that stage, such as RedRabbit (now me) or dumhamanger (now you)?
If either of those happened (looking from what you call your perspective as town - though I currently don't believe you are), wouldn't he have got a mislynch if town went for a lynch all lurkers policy?
His vote stayed on Shamrock for the rest of the day after he placed it (at least according to the votecounts, and since it was at the front of the wagon the whole time, I'm fairly sure it didn't move) Shamrock was also still lurking and not interacting with anybody, so what actually is the problem and/or scum motivation from hunting someone else while the person you're voting isn't actually active enough to even be pressured?

First, I confused his vote on you in his ISO with moving his vote. My mistake.

Second, I think that he voted Shamrock in part to try to signal to him to get his ass in thread if he was reading but not posting. If Shamrock had gotten in thread early when it was only Bacde's vote and started contributing, I don't think he would have been lynched.

Third, the pressure he put on Nacho was bad, in my opinion. His case was unconvincing and I do not think it came from town. It was a lot of rhetoric and very little substance, as I said earlier. If he had been actually scum-hunting, it wouldn't look bad at all. He wasn't though. He was attacking Nacho for nonexistent reasons, as he had been for a lot of the day. And there's certainly scum motivation in trying to set yourself up to push a mislynch in Day 2.

Post #53 - Absta is super town.

I'm not seeing this from that post, it still is just a weird post to me (and in my reasoning for voting absta yesterday), what makes absta super town?

VOTE: Disturbed

Hit a wall with jmo, i'd be okay with a lynch of him.

This post struck me as an attempt to see how Disturbed reacted to pressure because he hadn't been under pressure from anyone but iam yet. Absta kind of sided with Disturbed against JMO early on. I think this is an appropriate reaction to the JMO argument, which wasn't getting Absta or Disturbed anywhere, and the fact that Disturbed's switch to ice was a bit odd and deserved looking at.

A few things that need further explaining then.
1. Why was Disturbed's Ice vote not in your notes then?
2. The post before it by jmo in your first post says that jmo had just outed himself as scum, why is reacting the way Absta did appropriate against someone you say had just outed themselves as scum?
3. How do you know the switch was because Disturbed vote worth looking into?
4. How does voting the other person that was pressing on your suspect make sense when they may not have hit the wall yet?

1. I didn't go back and add anything. At the time Disturbed made that post, I didn't know it would become controversial later. I didn't bother writing about it because I thought it was fairly obvious. Evidently, it wasn't.
2. "Outed himself as scum" is an overstatement - something which there are a lot of in my first post. On page 2-3, he had done the scummiest thing in the game yet. Did it make him definite scum? No. He was the best target at the time. But people miss things all the time or don't agree. Just look at the other opinions of that post that come from people I think are town, Mirhawk for example. Not everyone is going to agree with that tell. Even if JMO is the scummiest person in the game at the time, it's not bad to pressure Disturbed to get as many reactions as possible in the early game. You shouldn't tunnel on one person from page 1.
3.

if he thinks that lying about omgussing makes jmo obvscum, why was he only voting him "for now", and why was he happy to switch over to iceninja when that wagon started looking more popular?

Disturbed definitely looks scummy as well. I'll have to look through some of his games before I support the waggon on him though.

This was a post on the preceding page. This is how I made that assumption.
4. If you have a scum read on both JMO and Disturbed, as Absta did based on his posts, then I see no problem pressing Disturbed and seeing what happens. You can always return to JMO later when there is more substantial content to use against him.

[Rob14]

As for why I asked for the smilies, it makes the smilie you used in post #315 a null tell. I'm not a huge fan of the first line still.

[iamausername]

The point is:

he was drunk and made a move he perceives as scummy.

yes, exactly. a whole lot of his defence to the accusations against him consisted of repeatedly saying "i don't think OMGUS is a scumtell anyway". the fact that the post in question shows that he

does

think OMGUS is a scumtell - that's the excellent catch. maybe not the one rob thought he was making, as it turns out, but an excellent catch regardless. it's not just "he's concerned abut looking scummy", it's "he's concerned about looking scummy for doing something he has repeatedly insisted is not a scumtell".

cba reading these Rob and Cheery wall-fests right now. maybe later.

[jmo16mla]

No. Omg. Fuck. I don't see OMGUS as a scum tell. Meaning IIIIIIII, ME don't see OMGUS as a scum tell. SOME people DO. This is why it wouldn't be recommended.

As in. If someone OMGUS'd me, I wouldn't say "oh shit, you're scum!" Now, someone else may have a different opinion of their OMGUS vote. Got it?

Keep trying to force your story that has no backing onto people.

[Rob14]

Vote JMO

Will ISO JMO later when I'm done eating lunch, but I think that last post warrants pressure practically by itself.

[jmo16mla]

How? Hah I'd like to hear your reasoning.

[Rob14]

1. Overly defensive to the opinion of one person on a post that others have not thought was a scum tell.

2. The whole post, but especially the first line, reads to me as "caught for the wrong reasons."

3. You have time to read the thread and respond to criticisms of you, but not to contribute at all or scum-hunt. You're obviously following the thread closely (as evidenced by the fact that you responded to me four minutes after I posted and to iam only 3.5 hours after he posted). So where are your reads? Where is the content? What are you contributing?

[Bacde]

I will admit that jmo's last post looks emotional and charged and potentially scummy, but I can relate to reacting that way when I previously believed pressure on me to be unfounded in other games. I'm still not seeing him as scum, just frustrated.

@jmo, who do you think is scum? Why?

[jmo16mla]

I already posted reads rob. Maybe you should read.

And the first line read wow. What the fuck. You're still bitching because your ignorant. No, no one else thought it was a scum tell, I'm just sick of people claiming other shit, when I've examined myself many times. Simple as that.

[ICEninja]

God, my head hurts and I doubt it has anything to do with any amount of alcohol consumed last night.

Rob is all over the place, and he very much needs to post a "this is why JMO is scum" post. Or Cheery, if he wants to vote him instead.

Cheery is...confusing me.

I really just don't have much intelligent to say right now. I feel like I need to watch things unfold a little bit because trying to figure out that 3rd scum (yes I'm going to play the rest of the game with the assumption that Bacde is scum, deal with it) is leaving me with neutral reads of just about everyone because just about everyone is both making good points and doing scummy things at the same time.

[Rob14]

Those were all your reads?

Iam has played in quite a number of games on site, although ive never played any games with him, id like to think he is a better player than in 12, and 412. Especially the last one.

That's the closest you came to a scum read. It wasn't even strong enough for you to vote him, evidently. I had expected something more substantial/helpful.

P-edit: The JMO post is coming when I have more time. It will be happening tonight.

[Bacde]

God, my head hurts and I doubt it has anything to do with any amount of alcohol consumed last night.

Rob is all over the place, and he very much needs to post a "this is why JMO is scum" post. Or Cheery, if he wants to vote him instead.

Cheery is...confusing me.

I really just don't have much intelligent to say right now. I feel like I need to watch things unfold a little bit because trying to figure out that 3rd scum (yes I'm going to play the rest of the game with the assumption that Bacde is scum, deal with it) is leaving me with neutral reads of just about everyone because just about everyone is both making good points and doing scummy things at the same time.

If you think I'm scum I want to hear what you think of me voting for the same person as you?

[ICEninja]

If you think I'm scum I want to hear what you think of me voting for the same person as you?

It probably means he isn't scum. Blah. I'm conflicted about him anyway.

Unvote

.

[jmo16mla]

An cheery wasn't a scum read?

[Bacde]

If you think I'm scum I want to hear what you think of me voting for the same person as you?

It probably means he isn't scum. Blah. I'm conflicted about him anyway.

Unvote

.

Even though the only time we have voted/lynched the same person, they were scum?

I'm seeing protown behavior coming from you but you are being oddly guided by your fears instead of your intuitions.

[Rob14]

As pointed out in 425, yes, by Bacde, Cheery said "my current scum reads are pretty much level with the current thoughts of the town. " I'm not sure exactly what he meant by this, but how does he know town from scum? he also hadnt directly answered this yet. Id like to get his response.

If you meant to communicate that Cheery was a scum read of yours, then I didn't get that from what you wrote. It read more like "I'm keeping an eye on Cheery" to me. Not "Here's who I think is scum, let's pressure him," which is what I was hoping to see from you.

Not sure if you've done this before in this game, but you could you link me to your most recent completed town and scum games if such games exist JMO?

[absta101]

If you think I'm scum I want to hear what you think of me voting for the same person as you?

It probably means he isn't scum. Blah. I'm conflicted about him anyway.

Unvote

.

Not liking this.
Surely town-you would consider that Bacde could be bussing?

[absta101]

distancing*

Were's Nacho at?

[absta101]

where's*

sorry