Newbie 1310: A WILD CHARIZARD APPEARED! - GAME OVER

[Smashbard]

To Drynify: What do you suppose TheDoctor means when he says you might be exposed later on? I'd like your take on that.

Honestly? I have not given it much thought. It seems a lot like fishing to me. Almost like he was hoping I would reflexively shout, "But I am so totally not scum, you guys!" I am not sure he thinks I am scum, but it looks like he might.

I am still not sure how my targeting of a scummy action makes me scummy, but whatever.

I will say that the post quoted by you is a very buddy-buddy post by TheDoctor. Scum buddy level? That remains to be seen.

The reason I feel you're town is precisely because you jumped on the first remotely scummy thing that happened.

But I'm considering the possibility that the doc could be new scum that accidentally outed you as his partner by hinting that there is something about you that has a risk of being exposed. It's just a very odd post of his all the way around. But his avoidance of taking a side between you or Xega felt like trying to participate while still playing it safe. I can see why he's acted the way he has if he's coming from a scum mindset, but I'm not seeing the same motivation from a town perspective.

Also, Empdear quickly sheeping your vote doesn't sit well with me. But I actually see that more as buddying than thedoctors avoiding you.

[Nachomamma8]

I see the vote for Doc cause he answered the random Q's and posting crap, but I'm wondering why. A lot of us answered those random q's (which I think is what you're referencing as posting crap), was there other crap he posted or something other than the answering of the random questions that makes him more scummy? Cause if it's just for answering those questions that could be a lot of people.

It wasn't the answering questions that set me off, it was more that he did absolutely nothing else with it. The fact that he didn't respond to the page one VT claim tells me that he hasn't read, but if he hasn't read, then how did he know to answer those RQS questions? More likely than not, he was looking for something to post, found the random questions, answered them, and stopped reading. That tells me he's just posting to get by, which makes him likelier scum than not.

If you lynch say on D1, you have a chance of getting scum, which is great but you also have a chance getting town. Now N1, a town will always be killed. So by lynching eveyday, you increase the chance of losing 2 town compared to only loosing 1.
Now i know that eliminating scum is how you win the game for town. But can't that be said as keeping as many townies alive?

If you lynch on Day 2, you have a chance of getting scum, which is great but you also have a chance of getting town. Now N2, a town will always be killed. So, by lynching everyday, you increase the chance of losing 2 town compared to only loosing 1. So, it's optimal never to lynch because then we never lose 2 town!
...but that's not how it works. We have three chances to hit scum before we lose. No lynching D1 basically says that fuck it, we're obviously going to win this game so we need a handicap, let's do this with only two chances to hit scum instead. In fact, everytime we no lynch when there are an odd number of players alive, we're essentially throwing away one of our chances for absolutely no reason. So yeah, we want to lynch pretty much every day. Exception would be if there are 6 players alive and 2 scum left OR 4 players alive and 1 scum left and there isn't a confirmed town around. Then you might want to no lynch so you would have the minimum amount of suspects, but only then.

So what you're saying that it's a bad move if i am town or scum. Hence just a bad move altogether?

Precisely.

Why?
Am i really to close to see exactly whats so town about them?

Dyr is being aggressive, targetting something that he regards to be scummy and locking on tight. While he does that, he's also looking around, criticizing people, searching for the other scum. I find that pretty town.
Em+p is more of a tonal read, but the conscious creating of bandwagons to get people closer to a lynch is pretty cool, pretty cool.

I would like elaboration as to why theres a wagon on the doctor and why empdear is town. I see dry and xegarus as town. Don't know about nacho. He wan this chummy in our last game. *Wasnt

Really? Pretty sure I buddied the hell out of camn last game until I thought she was scum.

[Xegarus]

Really? Pretty sure I buddied the hell out of camn last game until I thought she was scum.

So buddy-ing can mean something or absolutely nothing?

[CF Riot]

Everything can mean something or nothing. Mafia is about context and motivation. A saying you'll find quite common around here, "There are no objective scumtells."

[Dyrynify]

Everything can mean something or nothing. Mafia is about context and motivation. A saying you'll find quite common around here, "There are no objective scumtells."

Exactly. Everything is subjective. I found your action, the RC, scummy. Others may not have.

[Xegarus]

Ok, and i found the hastiness of your vote scummy. As if trying to get something to happen quickly.

[Xegarus]

I should also say that while i don't think RC Is THAT big of a deal, i do concede that it may have been a bad idea.

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE COUNT 1.3

[L-4] Dyrynify: Xegarus

[L-3] Xegarus: Dyrynify, em+p_dear

[L-5] em+p_dear:

[L-5] Om:

[L-1] TheDoctor: Om, CF Riot, Nachomamma8, Smashbard

[L-5] kitiekatt:

[L-5] CF Riot:

[L-5] Smashbard:

[L-5] Nachomamma8:

Not Voting:

2 (kitiekatt, TheDoctor)

• With nine alive, it takes five to lynch.
  
• Day One's deadline: January 3, 2013 CST or in (expired on 2013-01-03 21:00:00).
  
• V/LA: No one.

[Dyrynify]

...and? You voted me. If you really want my lynched over it, find other things I did that are scummy, and bring them to the attention of the other players. See, that is part 2 of this game; being convincing. You have to get the other players to believe your argument.

Trust me, I am watching you very closely for that very reason. As soon as I find enough scummy behavior, I will really begin pushing for your lynch. Right now, there is simply not enough there to justify it. You are not scummy enough to lynch yet.

Edit: Again, it is subjective. To you, it was not a big deal. To me, it was and remains a very scummy action. You can't simply say, "It was not scummy!" and expect everyone to back off. They will retain their opinions regardless. I don't feel that my vote was scummy at all, but my opinion on my action does not matter. Everyone else's does.

[kitiekatt]

@ TraceyLyn11-

I'm also not voting.

~Whoops. Vote counts 1.2 and 1.3 have been fixed.

[CF Riot]

Trust me, I am watching you very closely for that very reason. As soon as I find enough scummy behavior, I will really begin pushing for your lynch. Right now, there is simply not enough there to justify it. You are not scummy enough to lynch yet.

I do not have a townread on Dyr. I also do not think Xeg's RC was a big deal.

[TheDoctor]

1) What draws you to play the game of Mafia? What are some of your favorite things about the game?
I don't really know...it's just a lot of fun. It's almost like playing poker.

2) Do you tend to take the game very seriously and become aggressive/defensive or do you take a light hearted approach and just go with the flow?
I take all games much more seriously than I should, and I am naturally very aggressive, which comes through in the way I play.

3) How much do you value your gut reads in comparison to another players reads? Do you tend to doubt yourself or tunnel your suspects?
We have no real evidence to go on, so gut feelings are a major part, and I never fully trust anyone else in these games, so I value my own reads above anyone else, and I doubt everything. I am always open to new ideas.

All that and nothing to add on P1 claim?

I didn't really think anything needed to be added. It was dumb. I hate RC'ing at any stage, I think it detracts from the game.

I had read, and read the responses to his RC. He did something dumb, and he was getting grilled for it, but I did not see any reason to add to a lynch mob mentality. I was sitting out to see if I saw anything worth pointing out. I'm not a big fan of repeating things others have said, but I guess I will be forced to do so on this site.

Senjai has been replaced by the magnificent CF Riot. Welcome him.

Unvote

Vote CF Riot

For assassinating someone and trying to take their place without us noticing

Unvote

/me hopes the mod doesn't kill me for that....

Welcome Riot!

I actually agree that Dyrynify's vote seems a little too hastly, but he saw something scummy and he went for it. I certainly won't vote for him because of it, but I will keep my eye on him. As for you X, your RC did nothing, as of yet, but might help to expose Dyrynify later on. Only time will tell. Even if it does end up helping the town, It's not something I would ever do. This game, to me, is about figuring out things. Investigation. RC'ing, again, for me, kills that to some extent. An RC could be a complete lie, but even a lie gives away a lot of information.

I welcomed Riot. Then I said what I thought about the exchange between Dyr and X. What I meant by exposing Dyr is that he might well be scum, and he might do the same thing to other people later on. Seems like he was looking for any excuse to vote, and that seems like a scum tell to me.
On the other side though, X's RC was very dumb, for multiple reasons. Giving away any information for free is very dumb in this game.

VOTE: Nachomamma8, cause they are the only person I have played with before.

HI, NACHO!

Hello. Ready to lynch scum day one again? Good.

I will ask all of you a small series of questions to gauge where we are all coming from. There really isn't a wrong answer to any of these questions. This is just a way to break the ice.

Break the ice and... delay the actual game from beginning. Question 1 is nice for getting to know people, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other threads on site if you want to meet people and find out why they play. Question 2 is... useless, obviously. 3 is also useless. Of course everyone trusts their own reads instead of their own unless someone else is convincing or not. None of these help with scumhunting, all of these add useless things to my thread. Please don't do random questions ever again pretty pretty please. These were less anti-town than they usually are, but that doesn't mean they are good

I'll say this now, i'm a vanilla town.
Whether i'm lying or not is up to you.
But if something doesn't add up, then SOMEONE did lie.

Mmmm... don't do this. If you are lying as town, then your PR claim won't be believed down the road, which is a very, very bad thing, since you would probably be forced to claim when a majority of the town finds you scummy anyways. If you are telling the truth as town, then you're basically saying "hey guys, I make a perfectly good mislynch! Don't kill me!" if they paranoid of you being a PR, they will rolecop you. They will not kill you. If you are mafia, this just brings the spotlight to you.

If i gain nothing, then it doesn't really matter whether i do it or not.
Whats to loose?

If you gain nothing, you probably don't want to do it. You can never really gauge consequences until they are hitting you in the face in most scenarios.

I understand how random questions can be a stupid thing and basically force people to post for the sake of posting. But is that really so bad early on in the game? (thats a serious question)

Yes it is. The opening of games is extremely important, and RQS makes them a lot more muddled, a lot less advantageous for town. If you get the game started early and you don't give scum time to get comfortable, then things get interesting. For example, I normally would call Doctor scum for avoiding things and posting crap (I still probably will), but for now, I don't really know whether he is newbie who doesn't know where to start and so goes with answering random questions, or whether he is scum coasting.

I really like em+d and Dyr for town.

And yeah, gonna vote Doc anyways.

Vote: TheDoctor

Ok. Very well stated and I see your point on the RQS. I suppose I did avoid the P1 RC, but I didn't ignore or fail to read it. As far as posting crap goes, well, what I posted makes sense to me. The voting/unvoting for Riot was me welcoming him. I unvoted because we are past the spam vote stage, and I didn't want to leave my vote on someone that had just joined the game. I wasn't sure if the mod would kill/ban me for annoying them.

You always lynch on D1. You lynch on most days. The reason is lynching is how scum dies. If you don't lynch, scum don't die. Love your lynch.

Nacho, post you barnacle.

Yes. I don't even care if we lynch me, as long as we lynch. I hate NL's.

Are you sure its always good to lynch everyday, especially D1?

If you lynch say on D1, you have a chance of getting scum, which is great but you also have a chance getting town. Now N1, a town will always be killed. So by lynching eveyday, you increase the chance of losing 2 town compared to only loosing 1.
Now i know that eliminating scum is how you win the game for town. But can't that be said as keeping as many townies alive?

Mmmm... don't do this. If you are lying as town, then your PR claim won't be believed down the road, which is a very, very bad thing, since you would probably be forced to claim when a majority of the town finds you scummy anyways. If you are telling the truth as town, then you're basically saying "hey guys, I make a perfectly good mislynch! Don't kill me!" if they paranoid of you being a PR, they will rolecop you. They will not kill you. If you are mafia, this just brings the spotlight to you.

So what you're saying that it's a bad move if i am town or scum. Hence just a bad move altogether?

If you gain nothing, you probably don't want to do it. You can never really gauge consequences until they are hitting you in the face in most scenarios.

Sure, you can't gauge some consequences until it's too late.

I really like em+d and Dyr for town.

Why?
Am i really to close to see exactly whats so town about them?

And yeah, gonna vote Doc anyways.

What is the main reason why?

I actually agree that Dyrynify's vote seems a little too hastly, but he saw something scummy and he went for it. I certainly won't vote for him because of it, but I will keep my eye on him. As for you X, your RC did nothing, as of yet, but might help to expose Dyrynify later on. Only time will tell. Even if it does end up helping the town, It's not something I would ever do. This game, to me, is about figuring out things. Investigation. RC'ing, again, for me, kills that to some extent. An RC could be a complete lie, but even a lie gives away a lot of information.

This seems like commenting on the Roleclaim event to me. Unless everyone has noticed something else major going on beyond Xega's roleclaim that should be discussed.

Regardless, this entire post reeks of fence sitting to me upon review. As well as a few other choice tells. The quick vote, unvote and playful aside about not wanting to be modkilled seems like he's afraid to die, or even draw attention to himself. Could be a very early scum catch here.

Unvote. Vote: TheDoctor

As for you X, your RC did nothing, as of yet, but might help to expose Dyrynify later on. Only time will tell.

To Drynify: What do you suppose TheDoctor means when he says you might be exposed later on? I'd like your take on that.

~Vote tags and quote tags were fixed.

I mean I think he might be scum, just like I think everyone might be scum. The RC was dumb, but I think that he was too....eager to vote. But, it also drew a lot of attention to himself, so maybe I am over-thinking it.

To Drynify: What do you suppose TheDoctor means when he says you might be exposed later on? I'd like your take on that.

Honestly? I have not given it much thought. It seems a lot like fishing to me. Almost like he was hoping I would reflexively shout, "But I am so totally not scum, you guys!" I am not sure he thinks I am scum, but it looks like he might.

I am still not sure how my targeting of a scummy action makes me scummy, but whatever.

I will say that the post quoted by you is a very buddy-buddy post by TheDoctor. Scum buddy level? That remains to be seen.

No, I was not posting to get a reaction from you. I was not thinking about anyone's reaction when I posted it. I don't have that kind of foresight.

I see the vote for Doc cause he answered the random Q's and posting crap, but I'm wondering why. A lot of us answered those random q's (which I think is what you're referencing as posting crap), was there other crap he posted or something other than the answering of the random questions that makes him more scummy? Cause if it's just for answering those questions that could be a lot of people.

It wasn't the answering questions that set me off, it was more that he did absolutely nothing else with it.

The fact that he didn't respond to the page one VT claim tells me that he hasn't read

, but if he hasn't read, then how did he know to answer those RQS questions? More likely than not, he was looking for something to post, found the random questions, answered them, and stopped reading. That tells me he's just posting to get by, which makes him likelier scum than not.

I read it, and the reactions to it. I didn't have anything new to add. How many people need to tell him that it was dumb?

I should also say that while i don't think RC Is THAT big of a deal, i do concede that it may have been a bad idea.

Hey, I'll say it again. It was dumb. You gave away information. The mafia knows that you are not a PR, or you are mafia and you brought attention to yourself.

[Xegarus]

The mafia knows that you are not a PR, or you are mafia and you brought attention to yourself.

How would they know if i am or not a PR?
They would have to believe me first. Its not like anyone is taking anything at face value.

If i was either mafia or town, i kinda have already brought attention to myself.

[TheDoctor]

The mafia knows that you are not a PR, or you are mafia and you brought attention to yourself.

How would they know if i am or not a PR?
They would have to believe me first. Its not like anyone is taking anything at face value.

If i was either mafia or town, i kinda have already brought attention to myself.

I really wasn't going to point out that, if you are town, you might have been lying about being vanilla.

[Dyrynify]

The mafia knows that you are not a PR, or you are mafia and you brought attention to yourself.

How would they know if i am or not a PR?
They would have to believe me first. Its not like anyone is taking anything at face value.

If i was either mafia or town, i kinda have already brought attention to myself.

No, they don't have to believe you. They already know. The Mafia know every other mafia member, and by extension who the town are.

[Smashbard]

I had read, and read the responses to his RC. He did something dumb, and he was getting grilled for it, but I did not see any reason to add to a lynch mob mentality. I was sitting out to see if I saw anything worth pointing out. I'm not a big fan of repeating things others have said, but I guess I will be forced to do so on this site.

What you call reiterating what other people have already said, I call stating your opinion, whether it's the same opinion that's already been stated or not, it's useful. If we all decided not to state our opinions on someone's scummy action just because another player beat us to it, then we'd never get enough players to vote for a lynch.

[Smashbard]

The mafia knows that you are not a PR, or you are mafia and you brought attention to yourself.

How would they know if i am or not a PR?
They would have to believe me first. Its not like anyone is taking anything at face value.

If i was either mafia or town, i kinda have already brought attention to myself.

I think you just need to understand, if you're town, there is no benefit at all to immediately claiming you are a vanilla townie.

Let me try to break this down, because no offense, you're not getting the message. Assuming we mislynch today a vanilla townie today, just for simplicity sake.

The rolecop is going to investigate you now, almost guaranteed. If you are telling the truth, then they will see that you are vanilla, and be able to kill any other player, drastically increasing their chances of killing our power roles. If there is only one of us, they have a 20% chance of killing a power role. If there are two of them, that's a 40% chance of killing one of our power roles.

If you are for whatever reason, lying about your role and ARE a power role, then when they investigate you, they have a 100% chance of killing our power role, because you're dead.

Now if you would of never claimed at all, the scum would have no idea where to look, and who to rolecop taget. So their chance of killing any power role would of been equally 16% approx. Because it would not have been clear who they should target to kill or rolecop.

So no matter what happens at this point, just by you claiming vanilla townie out of the blue, you have drastically improved scums chances of nuking our night game advantage. At best, we now have a 20% chance of losing a power role, assuming we don't lynch them in the first place today. At worst, you've given them a 100% guaranteed kill target.



So TL;DR, vanilla claiming for no reason has improved scums chances at killing our power roles by a minimum of 4% - 84%. It's basic math. You should not have roleclaimed. So now at this point you need to step it up and stop getting stuck on why everyone is telling you it's a bad move, accept it's a bad move, and start redeeming yourself by helping us find the scum.

[Smashbard]

EBWOP: In case I wasn't clear about this, if that post doesn't convince you that claiming was a bad move, I'm moving my vote to you and advocating your lynch, Xegar. Because now you've become a liability, and I would rather risk mislynching by voting you than allowing you to stay alive when keeping you around means the chances of me dying in the night are increased.

[Om]

@TheDoctor;

''Sitting out''

is not a pro-town thing. You'll be policy lynch target in any game you may play on this site not just this. So yes, you will be forced. It's a site meta.

@Xegaeus; In your state it would be best for us if you stopped making arguments like this..

How would they know if i am or not a PR?
They would have to believe me first. Its not like anyone is taking anything at face value.

You're only piling on your initial mistake of early RC and causing distraction. If you're not a scum, it's a really really bad idea.

[Dyrynify]

If you are switching your vote, you should definitely make it official.

[CF Riot]

This argument was settled on page 2 and this discussion isn't helping find scum at all.

Smashbard

Post something relevant.

[CF Riot]

whoops

Vote: Smashbard

[Xegarus]

I like how most of you missed the point.
I have already accepted that it was a bad idea.
I was mearly asking Doc how they would know that I am not a PR.
He specifically said 'now they know you are not a PR'
I've actually said before that scum knows as much as they did before.
Meaning yeh sure they know who is scum, therefore they know who is town, but they do not know the roles.
Scum would still have to either believe me or not.
But thank you seriously for telling me what I already know.

As CF said, this argument was settled.

[Om]

I like how most of you missed the point.
I have already accepted that it was a bad idea.
I was mearly asking Doc how they would know that I am not a PR.
He specifically said 'now they know you are not a PR'
I've actually said before that scum knows as much as they did before.
Meaning yeh sure they know who is scum, therefore they know who is town, but they do not know the roles.
Scum would still have to either believe me or not.
But thank you seriously for telling me what I already know.

As CF said, this argument was settled.

Asking for explanation for that is ''exactly'' what I was referring to as ''really really bad idea''.

Nevertheless, explain to me why is your vote still on Dry?

[Xegarus]

....Its still on?
Woops.

I planned to unvote during the 'I voted for you for Y' post I made.
I should stop using my phone.

UNVOTE:
I was going to say that my reason for voting was his hastiness but as time has gone by, the less I actually believe it my self.