[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[callforjudgement]

Yeah, I actually like that 3:3 strategy. If you hit scum, it goes to 2:2; if you hit town, you lose. Probably about the best odds you can get.

(However, you have to be quite careful in trying to come to an agreement on who to target when the town is half scum. It's not like you can hold votes or anything like that; the townies will have to try to identify each other and form an agreement just among themselves.)

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

If both nominated players are scum: scumteam's choice of 4:2 with no confirmed players, or 3:3 with one confirmed scum;
If the town was right only about the scummiest: scumteam's choice of 3:2 with one confirmed town, or 4:2 with no confirmed players;
If the town was right only about the second-scummiest: 3:3 with no confirmed players;
If the town was wrong about both players: instant scum win

I think if town is right only about the scummiest scum just shoot the player nominated to shoot?

[Klick]

Hmm. Have you considered it being Vigs that only work if they're the only ones targeting a player? Sorta like CPR Doc Mafia?

[callforjudgement]

If both nominated players are scum: scumteam's choice of 4:2 with no confirmed players, or 3:3 with one confirmed scum;
If the town was right only about the scummiest: scumteam's choice of 3:2 with one confirmed town, or 4:2 with no confirmed players;
If the town was right only about the second-scummiest: 3:3 with no confirmed players;
If the town was wrong about both players: instant scum win

I think if town is right only about the scummiest scum just shoot the player nominated to shoot?

Oh, right. So you get 3:2 with no confirmed players, because you killed the player you would have confirmed. You're right, that's better for the scum.

[callforjudgement]

3of7

• 5 Vanilla Townies
  
• 2 town power roles
  
• 1 Mafia Goon
  
• 1 mafia power role

Power roles are randomly chosen from the following list, without duplicates; any power role can go to town or scum:

• 1-shot Cop
  
• 1-shot Watcher (cannot see blocked actions)
  
• 2-shot Jailkeeper
  
• 2-shot Roleblocker (cannot be chosen at the same time as JK, the entire setup is rerolled if it is)
  
• (full) Doctor
  
• (full) Tracker (cannot see blocked actions)
  
• (full) Rolecop (reveals role but not alignment)

Apart from that, usual mechanics (day start, scum have an NK, etc.); scum power roles can both kill and action regardless of how many scum are alive

I've been thinking about the problem of creating a new newbie setup. Here's my attempt, but before proposing it for newbies, I'd like to know if people think it'll be balanced, simple to understand, and fun. And thus, the Open discussion thread. Not sure what to do about the possibility of scum getting useless roles for them (Cop / Doctor); I think it's reasonable to leave it possible, because at least they'll know the role isn't in the setup and thus is safe to claim. The ban on double roleblocking roles is to avoid awkward interactions that have no obvious resolution.

[Rainbowdash]

Im going to re-bring up Popcorn Mafia since I think it would do well in the popularity side for current site meta.

8x Vanilla
4x Goon

Nightless, Daykill Mechanic

Goon Role (x4)

You are a Mafia Goon with XXX, YYY and ZZZ

Before the game starts, you must elect one townie to receive the gun.

You may talk with your partners <HERE> at any time.

You win when mafia make up at least half of the living players

Vanilla Townie (x8)

You are a Vanilla Townie

All you have is your voice for now

You win when all threats to the town have been killed

When town gets the gun:

You have the gun.

You MUST shoot another player by <Deadline>

If you shoot mafia, they will die and you will retain the gun. If you attempt to shoot a town aligned player, you will die and the gun will transfer to their possession

Basically modified kingmaker nightless

Mafia chooses first king, if king executes mafia they remain king, if they try to execute town they die and thier target takes over as king. If they time out the king dies and mafia elects the new king again.

Its simple and I think fits well with current meta.

[Plessiez]

Im going to re-bring up Popcorn Mafia since I think it would do well in the popularity side for current site meta.

In practical terms, wouldn't Popcorn work better with one fewer townie?

It's true that twice as many townies as goons means the town "should" win 50% of games [1]. But this assumes town is shooting at random, and will continue to do so even after a few flips, which seems rather unrealsitic. All it takes is a few town players being obviously town, or the gun going to a strong town player, and then the fact the mafia have no control over who dies could (should?) start to really hurt them.

With 7 VTs and 4 goons, town only wins 43% of the time with random shooting. I would guess though that town would till win more than half the games in practice. That seems a bit more balanced, anyway .

(At the moment, this feels like a game I'd enjoy reading or playing as town, but maybe not one I'd want to play as scum.)

[1] Probability of town winning a game with T townies and G goons is (T-G)/T, assuming 0<=G<=T and random shots.

[callforjudgement]

Using EV to balance setups is not particularly reliable. (But if you

are

trying to balance setups with EV, the right value to aim for in an Open is somewhere between 40% and 50% to town. So 43% seems reasonable.)

I actually think Mafia should start by giving the gun to the strongest town player, thus forcing them to shoot with little information and probably killing themself.

[Empking]

Nought and Crosses M

[Empking]

Nought and Crosses Mafia

2 Reds

7 Whites

Each player is put on a publicly viewable board. The player in the middle square is confirmed town. Each day town chooses someone to lynch, this also puts a cross on that player's square. Each night scum choose a player to kill, this puts a nought on that player's square. Town win if scum are dead or they get three crosses in a row. Scum win if equal numbers to the town or get three noughts in a row.

[Cheery Dog]

The alt town win chin is too easy to achieve, I wouldn't even bother playing mafia. The player that goes first in naughts and crosses always win unless they don't know the corner strategy.

[IceGuy]

The alt town win chin is too easy to achieve, I wouldn't even bother playing mafia. The player that goes first in naughts and crosses always win unless they don't know the corner strategy.

No, they can only achieve a draw if the opponent also plays perfectly.

[Cheery Dog]

If they fail to win they're not thinking though their moves correctly. a correctly placed cross day 2 will ensure town victory.

Oh wait the normal before win con may stop it from happening if the mafia members get lucky about where they are placed. Still it's not a good crossover for mafia and would just end up being a shorter version of chess mafia.
If you play it like a normal game, you might have to policy lynch yourself to a loss to stop yourself losing. If you play it like normal naughts and crosses mafia's chance to win comes to luck.

I guess if the board was hidden, it could work, but then you get a random win from nowhere.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Getting three crosses in a row seems really hard, because you also have to lynch a scum if scum defend against it.

Also, I think it very possible scumhunting goes out the window later on. Hmm, town need to lynch one scum day 1 or 2, or they're basically screwed. And even so, they need to lynch the other scum day 3 probably, or just take a forced lynch on somebody who the mafia can probably choose.

Hmm, you have all the weird interactions of scum not wanting to lynch somebody who would lead to their lynch later on.

Interesting, but probably very scumsided.

Pedit: Cheery, what? You can't force a win. Whenever I try to win I always have to coax the other person into giving me the win by not forcing it.

[Empking]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

Siv, the interesting interactions of scumhunting messed with the board is what I'm going for. Although I do expect it would be scum favoured I think it would be so less than you'd think. The combination of board and confirmed townie nerf the scum's main weapon to a pretty large weapon.

[Empking]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

Siv, the interesting interactions of scumhunting messed with the board is what I'm going for. Although I do expect it would be scum favoured I think it would be so less than you'd think. The combination of board and confirmed townie nerf the scum's main weapon to a pretty large weapon.

Scratch the 'balance' bit. Just did some (non-rigirous) sum and I'm pretty sure it's overall balanced (though pretty, but not crazily so, dependent on the set up of the board.)

[saulres]

I think this analysis is right, but I'm tired so I may have made a mistake.

Town has to lynch a corner on their first shot, or scum control the tic-tac-toe aspect and win.

If they hit scum, great. If they hit town though, then scum kill the Innocent Child in the middle. Now town has a choice: lynch a corner, or lynch a side. The one place they cannot lynch is the opposite corner from the first one, or scum control their moves from then on out.

If town lynches a side, no matter what the results, scum has to lynch the corner for the block. Then town needs to block, then scum needs to block, repeat until game over.

If town lynches a corner, no matter what the results, scum has to lynch the side between the two corners. Then town needs to block scum. Then scum direct the next lynch.

So most, if not all, of the game, comes down to the first two lynches and the layout of the board.

[Empking]

I think this analysis is right, but I'm tired so I may have made a mistake.

Town has to lynch a corner on their first shot, or scum control the tic-tac-toe aspect and win.

If they hit scum, great. If they hit town though, then scum kill the Innocent Child in the middle. Now town has a choice: lynch a corner, or lynch a side. The one place they cannot lynch is the opposite corner from the first one, or scum control their moves from then on out.

If town lynches a side, no matter what the results, scum has to lynch the corner for the block. Then town needs to block, then scum needs to block, repeat until game over.

If town lynches a corner, no matter what the results, scum has to lynch the side between the two corners. Then town needs to block scum. Then scum direct the next lynch.

So most, if not all, of the game, comes down to the first two lynches and the layout of the board.

I'm not so sure with your conclusion, because as long as scum have hit a scum earlier then it doesn't matter that the scum can win (via tic-tac-toe) next turn as long as town hit the final scum

this

turn. I do agree that there might be a day, or so, of play-by-numbers but with the current site's activity and night deadline's I think it won't annoy people.

[Cheery Dog]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

I didn't think right about the nought in the centre square as the second move, and where the 4th move would then be placed0, but still there's no way for mafia to actually win by getting their noughts in a line.
I assume that's why you made the middle square confirmed town because otherwise a mafia in that square would give town the win.

[Empking]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

I didn't think right about the nought in the centre square as the second move, and where the 4th move would then be placed0, but still there's no way for mafia to actually win by getting their noughts in a line.

That's true. It's sort of the anti-Ches Mafia, whereas Chess Mafia was Chess or Mafia; in N&C Mfia if you just play one game then you've lost.

I assume that's why you made the middle square confirmed town because otherwise a mafia in that square would give town the win.

Yeah, middle's the standard second player move and the mafia move secon.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Saulres, town can go the opposite corner day2 - it forces scum to then pick a side, not one of the other corners, as otherwise town win on three crosses. At least so long as it isn't still 2 scum.

[Leafsnail]

I think it's very interesting. There's something of an issue in the fact that the town basically only have 3 directed lynches, though.

The mafia have reduced flexibility in their nightkills and there is a confirmed townie D1, but I'm not sure that makes up for the fact that 2/9 is already fairly scumsided and that the town basically lose the day 3 lynch.

e: actually didn't consider the possibility of sandwiching a mafia member day 2, that might help balance it. Can the mafia self-target with their kill?

[saulres]

Saulres, town can go the opposite corner day2 - it forces scum to then pick a side, not one of the other corners, as otherwise town win on three crosses.

If scum has a member on a side, then they win: Scum picks the side where the opposite side is town, forcing town to lynch one of their own and then killing the one in the corner. Board looks like this:

O X X
S O n
X O n

Town has to lynch bottom right, then scum kills middle right and wins. It makes the game tic-tac-toe and not mafia. (Again, depending on the setup.)

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

as long as scum have hit a scum earlier then it doesn't matter that the scum can win (via tic-tac-toe) next turn as long as town hit the final scum this turn.

Thus, the 3p LyLo is basically normal LyLo.

[Leafsnail]

Town has to lynch bottom right

No they don't. They can just lynch the mafia member. If the mafia member is dead they can't complete the tic-tac-toe game.

On the other hand I'm thinking it may actually be better to go for a near corner. That

kindof

gives you a fourth lynch but you can only aim it in a specific place (the mafia is forced to play between your two moves, effectively "lynching" the person in the middle. This means you can hit 3 people on a line and then have one more lynch to hit any other scum).

If this setup appears too scum-sided I think the easiest balancing measure would be to guarantee that one mafia member is on a side and one on a diagonal. That would basically split the game into two four player cells, that might be too pro-town though.