Mini 1406: Sherlock Mafia (Game Over)

[Rob14]

@Herodotus - I acknowledged that in my last post. My reason for asking originally was just to improve as a player; it wasn't relevant to the game.

@sottyrulez - I'm assuming you're referring to this:

For a variety of reasons you can’t allow that to happen and so it falls to you to protect James Moriarty at all costs.

I assumed when reading that flavor that the "variety of reasons" referred to working for Moriarty or being otherwise attached to him in some way. To call town possible "misguided idiots," I would think more specific info is necessary. i.e. a role PM of a misguided idiot

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote Count 1.1

Feysal (4)

– Jabberwock, Sottyrulez, Herodotus, The Mini-Librarian

Gummybear (1)

- Guy_Named_Riggs

Guy_Named_Riggs (1)

- d3x

Rob13 (1)

– Feysal

Sottyrulez (1)

- Magister Ludi

Not Voting (4)

- Gummybear, MagnaofIllusion, Rob13, DeasVail

Deadline: Thursday January 10 @ 10:00 AM Eastern
Countdown: (expired on 2013-01-10 10:00:00)

[sottyrulez]

@Herodotus - I acknowledged that in my last post. My reason for asking originally was just to improve as a player; it wasn't relevant to the game.

@sottyrulez - I'm assuming you're referring to this:

For a variety of reasons you can’t allow that to happen and so it falls to you to protect James Moriarty at all costs.

I assumed when reading that flavor that the "variety of reasons" referred to working for Moriarty or being otherwise attached to him in some way. To call town possible "misguided idiots," I would think more specific info is necessary. i.e. a role PM of a misguided idiot

For it to work as a town tell, you'd have to then assume the informed minority lacks that information. Is that what you believe is going on here?

[Rob14]

I do not think the informed minority would receive the flavor motivation of an individual town member, no.

[Herodotus]

They probably have fakeclaims if they need them.

[DeasVail]

I agree with the reasoning behind the Feysal wagon.

ML is possibly scummy.

Vote: Herodotus

[Herodotus]

I agree with the reasoning behind the Feysal wagon.

ML is possibly scummy.

Vote: Herodotus

I'll ask the obvious question: Why are you not voting for either of the people you spoke against?

[DeasVail]

You're scummy too.

[Feysal]

Fascinating. My opening post seems to have generated all the discussion I hoped for, although not for the reasons I expected.

Oh awesome. Feysal is scum.

Hi Tierce. Sorry, but guess again.

I remember perfectly well our battle over this in My Little Pony. I also remember how much good it did, which is none, and I remember my tell was invoked by Godot, who was without question the most inexperienced scum in that game. This forces me to acknowledge my tell was never that reliable to begin with, and you should not expect me to stick to methods that don't work. I brought up the topic as a discussion starter, to see if anything interesting would come up.

I have to agree that the town tell Rob mentioned is not strong. It is indeed likely that the scum team have false claims, and they will likely include some variety, including someone who has been fooled by Moriarty's ploy into believing Sherlock Holmes is a felon. Therefore the scum team probably do have that information. However, I find that the fact that Rob does not think that far points to him being town.

UNVOTE: Rob13

I also don't like Herodotus' reason for joining my wagon. Perhaps he has not read very closely. Perhaps he has some villainous role as town and expected that to be the case for other town as well. Or perhaps he is scum and came up with a poor excuse to join an easy wagon.

VOTE: Herodotus

And by the way, while I was tempted to vote MoI just because, I don't see the problem with my Rob vote. At least not for him being considered weak. I have never played with him or seen his play, and I had no idea what his reputation was, if any. I was trying to provoke reactions with that absurd reason I gave for my vote though. If you did not know, I have used a die roll to randomize my vote in an old game of mine, and was suspected for it.

[Herodotus]

@DeasVail: Compared to each of Feysal and Magister, are you more suspicious of me, or less?

@Feysal: Do you think town sometimes use poor excuses to join an easy wagon?
How did you see your comment generating discussion more useful than waiting to see what someone else might say?
Also, in that game, Prosecutorgodot was following Tierce by making that comment, and also stated that their "reaction" was prior to receiving their role PM. So that doesn't seem relevant.

[DeasVail]

@DeasVail: Compared to each of Feysal and Magister, are you more suspicious of me, or less?

I think more.

[Magister Ludi]

Explain your point 2 and that vote.

Well, my job here is to examine the actions each player is making, and then figure out if it comes from scum or town.

Feysal is a very thoughtful player. If I remember correctly, sometimes he types and retypes he posts four or more times. It makes his posts very logical, and he doesn't post without thinking at all. I find this makes it a little easier to figure out his alignment, if you know what to look for.

Continuing on, Feysal is well aware of the fact that he made a large deal out of this minority thing before, and that you were in that game, and in this one as well. So knowing everything he did, he still posted. Solely based on how I know he plays, scum feysal would not, and does not, commit actions that draw undue attraction to himself. (It is almost irrelevant what the action is, but in this case, it is pointing out how the 'good guys' are in the minority) Feysal almost assuredly would not have posted something that would draw him such attention from yourself if he was scum, which is precisely why I believe he is town. He knew his action would be seen negatively, and still went ahead and did it.

I'm not to sure what his ultimate plan is with his initial post, but I do not see his mindset coming from scum at all. It isn't worth rolling the dice for minimal gain in his mind. Someone like gandlaf51666 or whatever, maybe, but not him.

Now, it may turn out he is ultimately scum, but at this point, based on his actions I am very sure he is playing to a protown win condition.

~~~

As to my sottyrulez vote, I found post nine where he claims your reasoning is 'good enough for him', not good enough, and the actions that most makes me want to put down a non-random vote. I don't think your vote on feysal should have been taken at face value, and the fact sotty did, to me, looks like they wanted

1. get a wagon which actually had the potential to take off
2. and not make an obtuse comment about anything
3. be an evil puppet master and subjugate the town until we are burned to a crisp.

ok maybe not three, but sotty's post was certainly the most vote worthy, and has a legitimate chance of being on scum.

Carrying on with this;

I'm hearing a very loud noise that sounds very much like a chainsaw.

I hear a very loud noise that looks very much like a buzz word without anything backing it up. Anyway, this post makes me want to keep my vote on sotty. (and I think I shall) Its a half handed attempt to discredit me, for no apparent reason, without really trying to analyze my motivation, or feysals for that matter. I think feysal is town and posted that, and I will defend my town reads. So this just looks like a slime ball lobbed over at me.

Nah man. Noting a potential chainsaw defense of Feysal from Magistar. That post was defensive of the attack on Feysal and came before Feysal even bothered to address the votes on him.

Why does it mattered when it came? If I see something I don't like, I will point it out. Just to be clear, you are accusing me and Feysal of being scum together?

[Magister Ludi]

I agree with the reasoning behind the Feysal wagon.

ML is possibly scummy.

Vote: Herodotus

FOS : Deasvail

Herodotus is of unimpeachable character, the fact you are voting such a fine gentleman is suspicious.

But seriously, coming in here shotgunning three people whilst ignoring a large succulent wagon on the only person you actually, possibly, have a reason to vote is not in my mind the actions of town looking to lynch scum, but rather scum looking to muddy the water and lynch town.

And now, without further ado, why am I possible scummy and why are you voting Herod?

[Herodotus]

The feysal wagon seems to have served its purpose. Magister and Rob are looking town. I don't agree 100% with the defense that either has offered but will be looking for a new wagon.

Leaving my vote on feysal at least for a few hours because I don't see any scum suspects among those who have posted, and it's too early to think that anyone is lurking.

@Magister: I think I understand the idea behind Deas's post, and I don't find it scummy.
BTW, that's a strange post coming so soon after you were accused of chainsawing.

[Magister Ludi]

Well I'd like to understand Deas's thought process a little better, at least, i'm not entirely sold.

I'm not sure this chainsawing tell has, or ever had, any validity. I always defend my town reads, with or without prompting. If we can get a bunch of mutual town reads, all thinking each other are town, we'll be in a very good position to win this game.

[DeasVail]

ML, I thought you were putting too much effort into why you weren't voting for Feysal.

As far as Herodotus, him disagreeing with the reasoning for Feysal-scum, but voting for a different (flawed imo) reason was possibly scum wanting to vote Feysal, but be different about it.

ML, why did you FoS me before attempting to understand my thoughts, assuming I did not have a reason to vote for Herod?

[DeasVail]

To clarify my slight Herod scumread, I think that the bad reason for the Feysal vote makes my scum scenario above more likely than town thinking that naturally.

[Rob14]

Magister looking town. Hadn't thought far enough ahead to consider safe-claims given by the mod (never played in a theme with source material before), so my reason for thinking Feysal is town was dead wrong. After his last post, though, I don't see his original post as that scummy at all. He appears to have had a valid reason to reconsider his tell.

Not a huge fan at the moment of Herodotus. The reasoning he gave for his original vote was bad and I agree with Feysal that it looks like someone that is trying to find evidence to support an already existing conclusion rather than trying to develop a conclusion based on the evidence (a.k.a. "find a reason to jump on an easy wagon").

@Magister: I think I understand the idea behind Deas's post, and I don't find it scummy.

BTW, that's a strange post coming so soon after you were accused of chainsawing.

The bolded is odd. He brings up this idea of a chainsaw defense again, but doesn't do anything with it. He doesn't analyze Magister's post at all or try to equate it to an alignment, just lists it as strange. Reads to me like he's kind of hoping that someone else will pick up the idea and run with it. Also, if Herodotus thinks that Magister's most recent post looks like it may be part of a continuing chainsaw defense, then why did he list Magister as a town read earlier in that same post?

I'm still a bit conflicted on this read, but it's the closest thing I have to a scum read right now.

Vote: Herodotus

[Magister Ludi]

ML, why did you FoS me before attempting to understand my thoughts, assuming I did not have a reason to vote for Herod?

I fosed you because I considered your action of coming up with three scum reads, but ignoring the wagon on one of them, (and that particular person was the one you actually presented a read on,) to be more likely to come from scum than town. I don't know why you didn't simply come out with your reasons before prompting, I don't know whether at that time you actually had much reason or not.

Also

ML, I thought you were putting too much effort into why you weren't voting for Feysal.

my posting wasn't aimed at simply saying what I wasn't voting Feysal, I was also typing to try and prevent other people from voting him as well. Also, this doesn't explain why you thought I was scummy, i.e. what I was doing that is more likely to come from scum than town.

[DeasVail]

my posting wasn't aimed at simply saying what I wasn't voting Feysal, I was also typing to try and prevent other people from voting him as well. Also, this doesn't explain why you thought I was scummy, i.e. what I was doing that is more likely to come from scum than town.

I didn't get that sort of vibe from your post though.

Also, scum like to make sure that town know just how 'town' they are.

[DeasVail]

Also, my question is why didn't you find out before the FoS?

[Magister Ludi]

I didn't get that sort of vibe from your post though.

You misinterpreting what I was doing is not ground for anything, you can ask a question if you were unclear. And You can't have it both ways. You're both trying to accuse me of not asking you questions before fosing you, whilst also calling me scum despite the fact you didn't ask me questions to clarify your own scum read.

And stop being so damn pedantic. You did something that caused me to notice you, and I pointed it out. Questions can come after, as they have been by me, but i'm not sure why you're so up in arms that I called you out. If you are town and would like to avoid that, please explain reasoning and thought process before posting, and don't act in a way that is more likely to come from scum than town.

Also, scum like to make sure that town know just how 'town' they are.

Are you accusing me of scum calling out town feysal? Because here you're implying I am scum calling out feysal town, whilst earlier you said both Feysal and I were scum. You can't have it both ways. I felt like a broken record with that line, but somehow you've pulled that way of reasoning off multiple times in under two pages.

[DeasVail]

I do not assume that one scumread is correct when considering another scumread.

I am also aware that my questioning has been somewhat silly, but your FoS seemed to rely on me not having any reason to think Herod scum (which there was little evidence for at the time). I do feel that mine was different.

[The Mini-Librarian]

Eh, I had a feeling that was the reasoning for Feysal mentioning that. Unfortunately, I have no scum reads currently so I'm gonna keep it there for at least a bit, while I try to get read on all of you.

--

@herodotus:

Was your reasoning for voting feysal a fabrication? You seem to imply so in 38.

[sottyrulez]

Explain your point 2 and that vote.

Well, my job here is to examine the actions each player is making, and then figure out if it comes from scum or town.

Feysal is a very thoughtful player. If I remember correctly, sometimes he types and retypes he posts four or more times. It makes his posts very logical, and he doesn't post without thinking at all. I find this makes it a little easier to figure out his alignment, if you know what to look for.

Continuing on, Feysal is well aware of the fact that he made a large deal out of this minority thing before, and that you were in that game, and in this one as well. So knowing everything he did, he still posted. Solely based on how I know he plays, scum feysal would not, and does not, commit actions that draw undue attraction to himself. (It is almost irrelevant what the action is, but in this case, it is pointing out how the 'good guys' are in the minority) Feysal almost assuredly would not have posted something that would draw him such attention from yourself if he was scum, which is precisely why I believe he is town. He knew his action would be seen negatively, and still went ahead and did it.

I hate this wifomy defense. I hate the fact that it's coming from you and not him even more.

I'm not to sure what his ultimate plan is with his initial post, but I do not see his mindset coming from scum at all. It isn't worth rolling the dice for minimal gain in his mind. Someone like gandlaf51666 or whatever, maybe, but not him.

Now, it may turn out he is ultimately scum, but at this point, based on his actions I am very sure he is playing to a protown win condition.

~~~

As to my sottyrulez vote, I found post nine where he claims your reasoning is 'good enough for him', not good enough, and the actions that most makes me want to put down a non-random vote. I don't think your vote on feysal should have been taken at face value, and the fact sotty did, to me, looks like they wanted

1. get a wagon which actually had the potential to take off
2. and not make an obtuse comment about anything
3. be an evil puppet master and subjugate the town until we are burned to a crisp.

I'll just say at this point that my vote was a blatant bandwagon vote because something felt off about Feysal's first post and I was happy enough to follow Tierce's vote there even before she clarified the meta. The meta point itself definitely warranted an explanation from Feysal, and you basically came in and pre-empted all that. This seems counter to the idea of moving the game on from RVS, heck your entire reaction seemed somewhat adversarial to me contributing to taking away your RVS vote...

ok maybe not three, but sotty's post was certainly the most vote worthy, and has a legitimate chance of being on scum.

Carrying on with this;

I'm hearing a very loud noise that sounds very much like a chainsaw.

I hear a very loud noise that looks very much like a buzz word without anything backing it up. Anyway, this post makes me want to keep my vote on sotty. (and I think I shall) Its a half handed attempt to discredit me, for no apparent reason, without really trying to analyze my motivation, or feysals for that matter. I think feysal is town and posted that, and I will defend my town reads. So this just looks like a slime ball lobbed over at me.

It's definitely a point to explore should Feysal flip scum. Heck go to the quote directly above what I'm writing here and you're already hedging.

Nah man. Noting a potential chainsaw defense of Feysal from Magistar. That post was defensive of the attack on Feysal and came before Feysal even bothered to address the votes on him.

Why does it mattered when it came? If I see something I don't like, I will point it out. Just to be clear, you are accusing me and Feysal of being scum together?

Chainsaw defense probably wasn't the right thing to say there, as that locks in a singular possibility where there is more than one. It's possible your over defensive reaction to votes on Feysal is an attempt at town cred because you know his alignment. Could also be that you're both town, but I don't see things that way right now because I find you both scummy atm.

Sotty's reading up, and she might have something to say in a little bit.