Mini 1406: Sherlock Mafia (Game Over)

[sottyrulez]

@DeasVail: Compared to each of Feysal and Magister, are you more suspicious of me, or less?

Well his vote is on you, sooo...

Now, it may turn out he is ultimately scum, but at this point, based on his actions I am very sure he is playing to a protown win condition.

*trapdoor*

I thought the Feysal wagon was a nice start to the game, it would have been a good way to get people to commit one way or the other and get the game chugging along. I like the push and think the vote is pretty good as a result. With that in mind I'm always suspicious of people who are so quick to defend others in the early game, especially before the wagoned player has a chance to say anything. I think it is pretty scummy, mainly because it stifles any kind of open discussion around that player or wagon and instantly closes things down. It lets everyone know SERIOUS TIME has started and people play a lot tighter. ML coming in to the rescue just stinks and his reasoning is pretty lame. The lists aren't doing it for me. Too much tryhard not enough substance.

I'd like Feysal to comment on ML and his defense. Do you agree with what ML said? What do you think of him and his assessment of your playstyle?

Rob seems kinda strange to me. His first couple of posts seem to be him trying to say a lot but not really saying anything. I'll try reading them again but something is hitting me wrong there. I also don't like how he basically parroted Hero #38 by saying that Magister looking town.

~Sotty

[Magister Ludi]

Well then.

It's definitely a point to explore should Feysal flip scum. Heck go to the quote directly above what I'm writing here and

you're already hedging.

It's possible your over defensive reaction to votes on Feysal is an attempt at town cred because you know his alignment.

Could also be that you're both town, but I don't see things that way right now because I find you both scummy atm

.

I don't think you believe what you're saying.

I thought the Feysal wagon was a nice start to the game, it would have been a good way to get people to commit one way

or the other

With that in mind I'm always suspicious of people who are so

quick to defend others in the early game

, especially before the wagoned player has a chance to say anything.

Please read you're own suggestions. What you're asking for is exactly what I did, I committed one way, and It just so happened to be enough of a commitment that after that point the wagon isn't growing really anymore.

I think it is pretty scummy, mainly because it stifles any kind of open discussion around that player or wagon and instantly closes things down. It lets everyone know SERIOUS TIME has started and people play a lot tighter.

Nothing is really closed down.

I'm pretty sure sottyrulez is the pre-mo wagon right now. His arguments for me being scum are weak, and he contradicts himself a few times whilst trying to show how I am scum. His questions to feysal and others are lame (considering he thinks feysal is scum), as If he's more interesting in simply creating words than figuring out who is scum. Plus, I do think he joined the feysal wagon with sinister intent and is now cautiously trying to figure out where to go from here. Also I like rob.

[Jabberwock]

Rob seems kinda strange to me. His first couple of posts seem to be him trying to say a lot but not really saying anything. I'll try reading them again but something is hitting me wrong there. I also don't like how he basically parroted Hero #38 by saying that Magister looking town.

Rob's actually looking pretty Townish.

Spoiler: Relevant Rob13 meta stuff.

Rob's cases were bad. :/ Don't try to

portray behavior as scummy

, try to

figure out if motivations are scummy

. It's a world of difference in the quality of your scumhunting

and

how your cases are perceived. You don't want to play

just

to look Town, but you'll want to make sure your case doesn't read like a case that would be made by scum.

I was next to useless in this game, and I think it was because I replaced in. For right now, I don't think I'm good at doing that. Even without replacing in, I'm a stubborn person. When I'm there from the start, though, people can tell me when my ideas are stupid right when they're starting so that I can look in other directions. Without being here for people to critique my reads, I developed reads and started thinking that my scum reads were looking scummy no matter what they posted. Since I did this all at once with no feedback (catching up at night), no one was around to tell me I was seeing things that weren't there. I didn't even realize how retarded my catch-up post was until people started saying that a lot of it was just me calling people scum and not pointing anything out to support it. Many times, when I looked back at the posts I thought were super-scummy, I didn't see anything scummy in those posts at all and was confused how my tunneling self had in the first place.

tl;dr: I'm a stubborn asshole and it makes me bad at replacing into games. At least for now. I'll work on it.

P-edit: @Tierce - I don't understand that distinction. My thinking is that anything that has a town motivation has a scum motivation (i.e. to look like town), so I guess I don't see how you can extract the two. Care to explain that a bit more?

Rob also appears to be actually trying to learn stuff here; instead of going after the Feysal wagon (which he could by going after two capable hydras, one of which he has even played with before), he Townread Feysal. Yes, the Ludi Townread is sucky, but it feels more like an inexperienced Town player thinking that Ludi's show of :effort: is Townish.

Which looks like Ludi's plan. He can be impressively try-hard as scum; those walls so early on look impressive, but that defense is rather exaggerated (and ill-timed--even if he defends his Townreads, doing so on page 1 seems out of place--and if he already considers Feysal such a calculating player that wouldn't make that kind of mistake, why check meta he doesn't agree with

before

he even checks it; if he checked that meta and had exactly the same conclusions he had when coming in, huh... how come it didn't seem to affect his read on my slot at all?), and his writing isn't flowing naturally (i.e. I see a lot of scummy posturing there).

Also, of note that Feysal thinks that he wouldn't censor himself when saying scummy things as Town, so he leaves them in as scum as well, so no, that meta defense is pretty flimsy and proven wrong from ADwD.

This looks interesting.
UNVOTE: Feysal
VOTE: Magister Ludi

[Rob14]

Yes, the Ludi Townread is sucky, but it feels more like an inexperienced Town player thinking that Ludi's show of :effort: is Townish.

In hindsight, this is extremely accurate and I need to revisit my Ludi read.

Spoiler: Off-Topic Note @Tierce

I just realized I completely forgot to thank you in the Mini 1398 thread for your advice. I appreciate it and am trying to improve based off of it. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote Count 1.2

Feysal (3)

– Sottyrulez, Herodotus, The Mini-Librarian

Herodotus (3)

- DeasVail, Feysal, Rob13

Gummybear (1)

- Guy_Named_Riggs

Guy_Named_Riggs (1)

- d3x

Sottyrulez (1)

- Magister Ludi

Magister Ludi (1)

- Jabberwock

Not Voting (2)

- Gummybear, MagnaofIllusion

Deadline: Thursday January 10 @ 10:00 AM Eastern
Countdown: (expired on 2013-01-10 10:00:00)

[d3x]

Today was a bit more hectic than anticipated. I should be able to fully get in this by tomorrow night at the latest.

[Magister Ludi]

Which looks like Ludi's plan. He can be impressively try-hard as scum; those walls so early on look impressive, but that defense is rather exaggerated (and ill-timed--even if he defends his Townreads, doing so on page 1 seems out of place--and if he already considers Feysal such a calculating player that wouldn't make that kind of mistake, why check meta he doesn't agree with before he even checks it; if he checked that meta and had exactly the same conclusions he had when coming in, huh... how come it didn't seem to affect his read on my slot at all?), and his writing isn't flowing naturally (i.e. I see a lot of scummy posturing there).

I think you're blowing things out of proportion here. I simply defended feysal, and when asked to elaborate, (by you in fact), I did.

The rest of your writing isn't clear at all, I'm not really sure what you mean or what you're driving at. Can you be clearer, please?

[Magister Ludi]

Also, Tierce, can you comment on what I posted on the sottyrulez hydra, please.

[Jabberwock]

Which looks like Ludi's plan. He can be impressively try-hard as scum; those walls so early on look impressive, but that defense is rather exaggerated (and ill-timed--even if he defends his Townreads, doing so on page 1 seems out of place--and if he already considers Feysal such a calculating player that wouldn't make that kind of mistake, why check meta he doesn't agree with before he even checks it; if he checked that meta and had exactly the same conclusions he had when coming in, huh... how come it didn't seem to affect his read on my slot at all?), and his writing isn't flowing naturally (i.e. I see a lot of scummy posturing there).

I think you're blowing things out of proportion here. I simply defended feysal, and when asked to elaborate, (by you in fact), I did.

The rest of your writing isn't clear at all, I'm not really sure what you mean or what you're driving at. Can you be clearer, please?

The defense was ill-timed and ill-done, and the way you expressed it makes no sense for someone who apparently has a meta read on Feysal's skills but needed to check a tell you didn't see as viable for Feysal's skills to begin with. The train of thought is all wrong and it makes a lot more sense coming from a scum perspective than a Town one, regardless of Feysal's alignment (it works as a buddy defense and as buddying).

As for being clearer, vaguely pointing at "the rest of

[my]

writing" doesn't help me. What don't you understand?

Also, Tierce, can you comment on what I posted on the sottyrulez hydra, please.

What, on this?

I'm pretty sure sottyrulez is the pre-mo wagon right now. His arguments for me being scum are weak, and he contradicts himself a few times whilst trying to show how I am scum. His questions to feysal and others are lame (considering he thinks feysal is scum), as If he's more interesting in simply creating words than figuring out who is scum. Plus, I do think he joined the feysal wagon with sinister intent and is now cautiously trying to figure out where to go from here. Also I like rob.

Calling this reasoning 'crappy' is being polite about it. Vaguety vague vagueness and accusations of 'sinister intent' and 'creating words

[instead of content]

' that find no root in your own writing.

[Magister Ludi]

The defense was ill-timed and ill-done, and the way you expressed it makes no sense for someone

who apparently has a meta read on Feysal's skills but needed to check a tell you didn't see as viable for Feysal's skills to begin with.

The train of thought is all wrong and it makes a lot more sense coming from a scum perspective than a Town one, regardless of Feysal's alignment (it works as a buddy defense and as buddying).

How was it ill timed at all? Would you have preferred until after his was dead and lynched for me to post it?

I am still struggling to understand the bold. I feel I have a pretty good handle on his skills as a player. So I interpreted his actions under this lens. I never said anything about a tell being viable, I said that given what I know about how he plays, him posting what he did made him town and didn't warrant two votes nor the four it got to or however many more were waiting in the wing.

It make absolutely more sense coming from

town than scum

perspective. You can't simply wave it away with buzzwords, neither of those are applicable or fit what happened in this case.

As for being clearer, vaguely pointing at "the rest of [my] writing" doesn't help me. What don't you understand?

Which looks like Ludi's plan. He can be impressively try-hard as scum; those walls so early on look impressive, but that defense is rather exaggerated (and ill-timed--even if he defends his Townreads, doing so on page 1 seems out of place--and if he already considers Feysal such a calculating player that wouldn't make that kind of mistake, why check meta he doesn't agree with before he even checks it; if he checked that meta and had exactly the same conclusions he had when coming in, huh... how come it didn't seem to affect his read on my slot at all?), and his writing isn't flowing naturally (i.e. I see a lot of scummy posturing there).

Also, of note that Feysal thinks that he wouldn't censor himself when saying scummy things as Town, so he leaves them in as scum as well, so no, that meta defense is pretty flimsy and proven wrong from ADwD.

Pretty much the whole first paragraph, and sort of the second one as well considering you still think feysal is scum. But mostly the first.

Calling this reasoning 'crappy' is being polite about it. Vaguety vague vagueness and accusations of 'sinister intent' and 'creating words [instead of content]' that find no root in your own writing.

Please. Did you even examine the sotty rulez hydra to figure out if they were scum or town? I posted two quite blatant contradictions they made, and pointed out how his questions lacked aim or purpose. And more. I'm not sure what you consider vague here, and you still ignored the question. If my reasoning was 'crappy', which it isn't, you still provided no read on the slot.

[Magister Ludi]

For clarity, I will explain why I think sottyrulex should have more votes.

1. Blatant Contradictions
Accusing me of committing an action whilst turning around and doing the exact same thing comes from scum. They say things are scummy but don't follow their own words, they will say things just to make another player look bad.
2. Pointless Questions
Designed to look active and make 'content'. Questions to feysal fit this bill.
3. Initial Vote and Subsequent Posting
Vote is not claimed to be blatant bandwagon, but I suspect at the time it wasn't. His posting now assumes Feysal to be town at times and scum at others, and looks positioned to slyly jump to another wagon, me perhaps.

Yes, Its page three, but there are several good reasons to vote for sotty here, more so than any other player in the game.

[Magister Ludi]

EBWOP: vote on feysal is now*

[Herodotus]

@Magister: I think I understand the idea behind Deas's post, and I don't find it scummy.

BTW, that's a strange post coming so soon after you were accused of chainsawing.

The bolded is odd. He brings up this idea of a chainsaw defense again, but doesn't do anything with it. He doesn't analyze Magister's post at all or try to equate it to an alignment, just lists it as strange. Reads to me like he's kind of hoping that someone else will pick up the idea and run with it. Also, if Herodotus thinks that Magister's most recent post looks like it may be part of a continuing chainsaw defense, then why did he list Magister as a town read earlier in that same post?

The reason I was brief was because I was rushing to finish my post and go do other things.
To clarify, I think Magister is town. I felt a little uncomfortable with his defending me so quickly for what appeared to be reasons not based on his read of me. But there is a non-self-conscious aspect to that post, which says he's not afraid of being attacked over the "chainsaw" accusation.

@herodotus:

Was your reasoning for voting feysal a fabrication? You seem to imply so in 38.

Partly. I do believe that town morale is important and that it's better to think positively about a role you claim to have, but I never wanted to lynch feysal for it. As for Jabberwock and sottyrulez's reasons, I consider them as adequate as can be expected on page 1. My vote was to help form a wagon to see how people would react. As I said in the post you linked, the wagon seems to have paid off. Feysal himself is currently a basically null read, but I did get a couple town reads.

Haven't read page 3 yet and I have to leave again. Am hoping to see that everyone is taking part in the game.

[DeasVail]

I am still unsure of ML, but I do not have much of a scumread on him.

Regarding Herodotus, I think that his lack of response to posts explaining the flaws in his reasoning is scummy. I know that he's saying he wanted to wagon, but I don't see why he had to make up his own reason (unless he believed it) if he just wanted to wagon and see reactions, and if he believed in his reason being at least somewhat valid, I think he would have been more affected by posts that were critical of it.

[The Mini-Librarian]

I did a quick reread of the thread. Here's some notes I have.

--

My gut doesn't like sottyrulez' 16. I understand what he's trying to say, but the buzzword and flippant style of the post smacks of scum creating a dissenting idea and waiting to see if someone else will run with it first before committing.

~

However, I find that the fact that Rob does not think that far points to him being town.

Can you explain this a bit please?

~

I really, really don't like ML's 59. He seems to be oddly concerned that we were actually going to lynch Feysal based of Jabberwock's meta post. I don't know how anyone could really believe that he was in any immediate danger especially considering the playerlist isn't flooded with newbies.

[Magister Ludi]

I am not 'oddly concerned'. (whatever that means) I merely pointed (perhaps sarcastically) out how Jabb commented my posts about Feysal were ill-timed, so I responded with a question about what time would have been well and good for me to post what I said.

Lets get things straight here. Its not that I expected Feysal to be lynched on page one, its that I thought the two votes at the time were unwarranted.

Its easy to use hindsight bias on any wagon that actually doesn't result in a lynch.In the heat of the moment, anything is possible. Can you say with certainty who is going to be lynched today at this exact moment, Mini? Many times, stopping people from voting wagons you disagree with and getting people to vote for other wagons you think are on scum causes change and gets people to move their votes. It is not by some magic of doing nothing and hoping that someone doesn't get lynched.

[sottyrulez]

I'm pretty sure even the smallest little thing can warrant a serious vote on page 1. What you're doing is likening the idea of a day 1 page 1 wagon to an intent to lynch you can't even make a serious argument was even there to begin with.

More to the point if there's a null to town read that's being wagoned that I'm not interested in, I may not even comment on the wagon at all until it's around lynch -2/-1 territory. At that point you can consider that there's a serious intent to lynch and then say you don't like the wagon. Coming out and going on a rant about how you find a serious 2 vote wagon on page 1 unwarranted given that you're pretty much looking for just about anything to build on to get the game going at that point is silly. (Much less the even more significant point that Feysal didn't even post a response to the votes on him yet, and personally I would not have left my vote on him if the wagon had a serious danger of that kind of quicklynch.)

[Magister Ludi]

1. I didn't go on any rant. I posted simply a few lines about my views at the time, rant is quite the gross characterization.
2. If the job was to get the game started, I deserve congratulations, since the game sure as hell was on from there.
3. Just because you do things differently from me means nothing, I play how I wanna play, I say what I wanna say, .. (have I said anything stupid today?)

You've really tried to twist things here. Feysal got two votes based on something I thought was silly. I posted this, and voted you. Suddenly I have been made out to be chainsawing, buddying, grossly defending him, going on a rant, and what not. This is ridiculous. If something is amiss in this game, I will comment on it, which I did. A lot of these accusations being thrown around, by you and others I suppose, are within facts or substance substantiated by the game itself and suffer from post action transformation of the way things would have turned out. I'm not sure why you're particularly concerned that Feysal got to L-1 or something similiar before anyone posted anything defending him. You state the point of the wagon was to get the game going, well the game is going, so why is it suddenly so important that the game should have gotten going in a wildly different manner? I'm sure you have played many games which do not start with an L-1 wagon.

I will note that you ignored what I pointed out were contradictions in your posting in my post 51.

Spoiler: Reason to Vote Sotty

For clarity, I will explain why I think sottyrulex should have more votes.

1. Blatant Contradictions
Accusing me of committing an action whilst turning around and doing the exact same thing comes from scum. They say things are scummy but don't follow their own words, they will say things just to make another player look bad.
2. Pointless Questions
Designed to look active and make 'content'. Questions to feysal fit this bill.
3. Initial Vote and Subsequent Posting
Vote is not claimed to be blatant bandwagon, but I suspect at the time it wasn't. His posting now assumes Feysal to be town at times and scum at others, and looks positioned to slyly jump to another wagon, me perhaps.

[Magister Ludi]

EBWOP*: suppose, are

without

facts or substance

[Herodotus]

For what it's worth, I think I understand what Jabberwock was saying about Magister Ludi in post 52, though I agree that as a run-on sentence it was difficult to follow. I consider Magister's response in post 59 adequate to the point about meta on feysal. (One can't answer the accusation that one's effort

could be

coming from scum, and the comment on his writing seems like what we used to call "gut". (I don't use that term negatively.) )

@Magister, regarding your sottyrulez case: In your experience have scum contradicted themselves significantly more often than town? Had reads on other players that are in a quantum state of both town and scum, more often than town do? To me, "contradiction" is often as much of a buzzword as "chainsaw".
I don't see how sottyrulez asking feysal his opinion of your defense is scummy. And I assumed that the question to rob was designed either to test how much knowledge rob had of the scum role PM's, to make rob doubt his town read on feysal, or both.

I am still unsure of ML, but I do not have much of a scumread on him.

Regarding Herodotus, I think that his lack of response to posts explaining the flaws in his reasoning is scummy. I know that he's saying he wanted to wagon, but I don't see why he had to make up his own reason (unless he believed it) if he just wanted to wagon and see reactions, and if he believed in his reason being at least somewhat valid, I think he would have been more affected by posts that were critical of it.

I'm going to have to point you to my post right before yours:

@herodotus:

Was your reasoning for voting feysal a fabrication? You seem to imply so in 38.

Partly. I do believe that town morale is important and that it's better to think positively about a role you claim to have, but I never wanted to lynch feysal for it. As for Jabberwock and sottyrulez's reasons, I consider them as adequate as can be expected on page 1. My vote was to help form a wagon to see how people would react. As I said in the post you linked, the wagon seems to have paid off. Feysal himself is currently a basically null read, but I did get a couple town reads.

Speaking of that post, does The Mini-Librarian have any comment on my response?

Its easy to use hindsight bias on any wagon that actually doesn't result in a lynch.In the heat of the moment, anything is possible. Can you say with certainty who is going to be lynched today at this exact moment, Mini? Many times, stopping people from voting wagons you disagree with and

getting people to vote for other wagons you think are on scum

causes change and gets people to move their votes. It is not by some magic of doing nothing and hoping that someone doesn't get lynched.

Did you expect that people would join you in wagoning sottyrulez based on your page 1 post?

I feel like sotty7 is accusing Magister of doing silly or useless things, not of being scum. I want to see her reads.

[Feysal]

I hate this wifomy defense. I hate the fact that it's coming from you and not him even more.

I find this very strange. No one has ever preferred that I provide my own meta rather than another player.

I'd like Feysal to comment on ML and his defense. Do you agree with what ML said? What do you think of him and his assessment of your playstyle?

I think his opinion of my playstyle was fairly accurate. I do indeed put plenty of thought into my posts and rewrite them several times. Ludi may have read that from here, and everything I say there is accurate, though anecdotal. I have good days and bad days.

However, I do need to point out that I cannot think of everything. Tierce already mentioned my play in Dance with Dragons, where I purposely left in a reference to multiple scum teams in an early post. That was an error of judgement on my part, since I had severely underestimated the backlash from it, and it nearly got me lynched on the first day. I could say that I don't purposely draw attention to myself as scum, but can do so by mistake.

However, I find that the fact that Rob does not think that far points to him being town.

Can you explain this a bit please?

In short, ignorance and confusion are town traits.

To explain some more, I don't think that scum would have forgotten about having false claims and the information they contain. They could try to feign ignorance, but such attempts are often crude and stand out, since the scum try to draw attention to their supposed town confusion. Rob however came off very natural and I can follow his though process with ease.

[DeasVail]

Sorry, I was wrong. So it was the characters being misguided idiots that you thought lowered morale? (@Herodotus)

[d3x]

fuck me... i just lost the post i've been working on for an hour or so...

round 2... :/

[Rob14]

Jabberwock - Where did you think ML's defense of Feysal started looking scummy? Post #14 or Post #36?

[d3x]

I've skimmed through the thread, and am doing a full read as I'm posting. My thoughts are in chronological order, so some may have already been covered/answered. As I don't usually have a huge amount of time to post, and the last attempt at this ate a bunch of that up, this will probably be more brief.

Looks like it falls to me to make the first comment on how, yet again, the good guys seem to be in the minority.

I don't see why it would 'fall to you', especially the meta MLP that Jabberwock immediately points out. I also don't like the seeming push to exit RVS, but then immediately makes an RVS vote. Personal note- I dislike "Random Votes" that use dice w/o dice tags. It smacks fake to me.

-I dislike Hero's p17 entrance to the game. I feel it's largely a weak reason to join a legit early Wagon. The Wagon isn't about the 'unfamiliar tell', it's about the hypocrisy regarding said tell.

-Unwanted light RoleFish noted. Continued in p25... does not want.

not for the reasons I expected.

What reasons did you hope for/expect?

--I'm hoping someone here can help me {or point me in the right direction}. Since coming back to the site, my preview window is all jacked up. After a certain amount of lines typed, it starts jumping back up after each keystroke. This makes it rather difficult to see what I'm typing.

Reasoning stated above... to be continued...