Newbie 1315: Van Helsing (Over)

[MP5]

OK, this is what I'm not happy with. Gone through just the last three pages, and am quoting all the questions (some good, some bad) which have gone unanswered. There are far too many.

but do explain to me,

Nekoko

, why you feel your vote is best placed on me

Declan

: Where is your elaboration which you promised yesterday?

The part I am most concerned about is that you are trying to push paladin's vote off you. Why are you (

Declan

) so scared of a vote? And why does it make paladin scum for leaving it there?

I'm curious about these two. (

Spawn

) What does "if I would've turned up town" mean? That you won't actually turn up town? And also, how is logical thinking and choosing caution before becoming decisive indicative of alignment?

Declan,

do you have any questions for Spawnisen that could help us determine his alignment?

Why did you,

Declan,

really change your read on me from town to scum? Was it Nekoko's post, my inactivity, or something completely different? If it was Nekoko's post, why change your reason in your answer to MP5's post 89? If it was my inactivity, why first claim it was my vote on you?

I would quite like to hear

kwll

explain why, after you explained to him his misread, he went on to provoke you.

kwll

I want to see your reads. Who's your top suspect and why?

My question to all - ignoring who is in each category, which category do you think scum would most likely be in at this stage? If it is not the one I have put you in, why not your own?

@awest

- got solid reads yet? I would like to know whatever it is you think thus far. In particular, here's something you can offer an original opinion on - do you think Nekoko is being opportunistic for jumping onto kwll after SAD's only contribution thus far has been to FoS kwll?

awest

(as per 66)- You seem to be stuck in deciding whether spawn is town or scum, because you seem to be giving reasoning for both. Just so I understand this right, you vote on him was to pressure more and solidify your read on him, correct?

kwll

, would love getting some general thoughts, and your thoughts on players thus far. I noticed you still have your RVS vote on spawn. Do you still believe he is the scummiest? If so, why?

This one's for you,

Superdeclan

- who is your scum partner?

Spawnisen

, please explain how you are not contradicting yourself between posts 137 and 142?

Although, there's one question I've been asking myself, why is

Spawnisen

not replying to my posts and questions? He has no problem replying to other peoples' posts and questions, but why is it that he can't reply to mine? I don't quite understand why he's borderline avoiding me.. I mean, he's obviously reading my posts since he had a slight town-read on me (post 88, but, I have to wonder.. why is he avoiding me like this?

Some bolding added by me to highlight who the question is addressing, but otherwise unaltered. I would like to see most of these answered.
General impression I got is that paladin was the most forthright in answering questions directed to him, Nekoko usually got around to it next time she posted (I still feel wrong putting "she" here, or "he" for that matter). Need more questions asked of SAD, Bitmap, awest, and myself.

MP5:

after criticizing Declan for his bad scumhunting, your last two "serious" questions made me giggle.

That's fine, and it is serious. There is one thing that I am looking for. More questions to follow later.

[Untrod Tripod]

Votecount 1.5

Spawnisen - 3 (kwll, awestfie, Superdeclan, Bitmap)
awestfie - 0
MP5 - 0
Superdeclan - 2 (MP5, Serrapaladin)
Bitmap - 0
serrapaladin - 0
kwll - 3 (Spawnisen, Nekoko, Ser Arthur Daye)
Nekoko - 0
Ser Arthur Dayne - 0

Not Voting - 1 (Bitmap)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch

Declan was prodded. Going to replace him if he doesn't pick up the prod in the next 8 hours.

[Spawnisen]

Spawnisen, please explain how you are not contradicting yourself between posts 137 and 142?

Oh why don't you explain why I am.
I said quite clearly that I believe scum is often to be found in the Flying Low Category (in general) and then I went on to explain that I had a scum read on kwll and one of the reasons I stated was that he isn't active at all and trying to be away from the spotlight. Isn't that Flying Low?
Not that it matters, but I told were I think scum is often found, not where I think scum is found in this round in your categories.

I'm still trying to get used to all the multi-quoting and highlight quoting and how to link posts in my replies (how?) and so forth, sorry for the double replies

[Spawnisen]

Although, there's one question I've been asking myself, why is Spawnisen not replying to my posts and questions? He has no problem replying to other peoples' posts and questions, but why is it that he can't reply to mine? I don't quite understand why he's borderline avoiding me.. I mean, he's obviously reading my posts since he had a slight town-read on me (post 88, but, I have to wonder.. why is he avoiding me like this?

Mainly for the reason that I stated above. That I'm still trying to learn all these multi quotes and what not, it's not the same as I'm used to and I have problems finding the different posts and where to cut off them If I quote a long posts or several posts. (I did manage with this one tho). So yeah, I'm not trying to avoid you, I've tried to answer several guys in one post too, like when I said that I didn't believe my pre game answers mattered, it was a confirmation of what you posted.
I've also not replied to you too much because I've been busy replying to the guys I feel are very wrong about me, take it as you will.

[Bitmap]

Spawnisen, please explain how you are not contradicting yourself between posts 137 and 142?

Oh why don't you explain why I am.
I said quite clearly that

I believe scum is often to be found in the Flying Low Category (in general) and then I went on to explain that I had a scum read on kwll and one of the reasons I stated was that he isn't active at all and trying to be away from the spotlight

. Isn't that Flying Low?
Not that it matters, but I told were I think scum is often found, not where I think scum is found in this round in your categories.

I'm still trying to get used to all the multi-quoting and highlight quoting and how to link posts in my replies (how?) and so forth, sorry for the double replies

Stop. Stop stop stop stop stop. STOP. I'm not the IC in this game but I'm going to set something straight. This is NOT how you look for scum. This is WIFOM bullcrap. As I said before, these theories are crap and should only be used when there's no other real strong lead towards scum.

Anyways, I'll post full thoughts soon when I have the time.

[serrapaladin]

In post 53, awestfie wrote:
A) You got defensive really quickly.
or
B) You feel like your pregame answers didn't matter all that much.


And I still feel like what I said there was more than correct, the only thing that was wrong with that post was the "or," because it should have been an "and." A few posts later (65,) Spawnisen said that he didn't think people would read all that much into his pregame answers, and on post 68, he started getting defensive. While this may not mean much; I want to point out one little thing: I think Spawnisen read my post, and ignored it might I add; and he went ahead and did exactly what I said in that post (A and B;) because, like I said... on post 65 he did B, and on post 68 he did A. You guys can go on from there, but, I'd love for Spawnisen to reply to one of my posts for once, because he hasn't addressed me so far this game, all he had was a slight town-read on me, but he never posted his thoughts about my posts.

Yes, you were in retrospective correct that he would use those lines of defense. Unfortunately, as you laid them out nicely for Spawnisen, we have no way of knowing whether he used your post to guide his defense, or whether he really "ignored it" as you believe. I understand you being underwhelmed by his replies, but that is partially your fault in making leading statements, rather than asking useful questions. In the entirety of your case against Spawnisen, you asked very little that required specific answers.

Bitmap:

Please stop being unnecessarily condescending and look up the definition of irony.

As to the bandwagon on Spawnisen: before you voted, there were kwll's RVS vote, Declan's sheep vote with no actual content and awestfie's actual vote. If we then consider that SAD, Nekoko, and I had been making a case for Spawnisen's actions being potentially newb town, and MP5 voting and pressuring Declan, I would argue the bandwagon had, in fact, been dying down. If you believe otherwise, perhaps you should have done more than push the wagon to L-1 and put me on your "scummy list."

[kwll]

Wow...I cant believe I read what I did.
Spawn...scum does not fly "low"
Bitmap put it in very good words on how scum can operate. Everyone plays scum differently, which is why we have power roles to aid us in this matter. I am glad you guys are you using the power of the vote to "pressure me" , but also I would like to note that lack of posting sometimes does deal with RL. I was setting up for college and I haven't been home much but I am done with that now.

Now...for the great part.

READS

Spawn...sorry but you are up there on the scum list. I would like to you actually have a case not..."well he isnt posting GET THE SCUMBAG!" Your content started out well, and I was willing to allow some of your post to slide but now I can see you using more of WIFOM vs actually logic. You believe I am after you? I am. I am very much am. I am also after everyone, just like everybody else is. Attempting to take advantage of somone who isnt posting enough at the time to suit you is very very week, also its bad form. Almost as bad as claiming someone is scum because they V/LA.

Bitmap.
Very very very strong entrance. I like how you enter with a splash. Why are you calling everything WIFOM? I understand not much logic is being used yet but its only day 1. Will be doing a ISO of you later. Not much to say you just got here.

Nekko

I am freaking curious. You believe I tunneled on Spawn? He was the only acting very very suspicious at the time. and the first to go into content. I wanted to see how he would do when being questioned. Especially when one acts defensive. Seeming how you ignored that info when I was talking to him puts scum pts on you. you are my third Scum read.
(P.S.) I am somewhat a defensive player. You will note that in many of my games.

SAD
null. You are doing as well as an IC and I am not getting a bead on you. Could go either way.

awest.
my second top scum read.

Your post makes you look like your bussing your partner there spawn a little much.
Like to see your response to it. I can quote later if need be.
Most of your post have been about spawn so not much to say.

gotta make lunch and head to the grocery store. Will finish my reads off then.

P.S
I suck at writing walls. So I try not to do it. and I suck at the quote.
p.s.s.

How do I just link post numbers without quoting them?

[serrapaladin]

[ post]156[ /post]

[Bitmap]

Bitmap:

Please stop being unnecessarily condescending and look up the definition of irony.

As to the bandwagon on Spawnisen: before you voted, there were kwll's RVS vote, Declan's sheep vote with no actual content and awestfie's actual vote. If we then consider that SAD, Nekoko, and I had been making a case for Spawnisen's actions being potentially newb town, and MP5 voting and pressuring Declan, I would argue the bandwagon had, in fact, been dying down. If you believe otherwise, perhaps you should have done more than push the wagon to L-1 and put me on your "scummy list."

Yes, but there was no real pressure until I put Spawnisen at L-1. And I've read the first 5 pages and your play doesn't scream town. Also, that last comment you made about keeping a bandwagon alive is scummy because town needs to utilize their votes as a weapon.

[Bitmap]

Bitmap.
Very very very strong entrance. I like how you enter with a splash. Why are you calling everything WIFOM? I understand not much logic is being used yet but its only day 1. Will be doing a ISO of you later. Not much to say you just got here.

Also, I don't think I mentioned it but I'm displeased about how SAD has been playing since he's being dodgy as hell in his actions. Mostly gut instinct but I think SAD could be scum at this point.

[Spawnisen]

Spawnisen, please explain how you are not contradicting yourself between posts 137 and 142?

Oh why don't you explain why I am.
I said quite clearly that

I believe scum is often to be found in the Flying Low Category (in general) and then I went on to explain that I had a scum read on kwll and one of the reasons I stated was that he isn't active at all and trying to be away from the spotlight

. Isn't that Flying Low?
Not that it matters, but I told were I think scum is often found, not where I think scum is found in this round in your categories.

I'm still trying to get used to all the multi-quoting and highlight quoting and how to link posts in my replies (how?) and so forth, sorry for the double replies

Stop. Stop stop stop stop stop. STOP. I'm not the IC in this game but I'm going to set something straight. This is NOT how you look for scum. This is WIFOM bullcrap. As I said before, these theories are crap and should only be used when there's no other real strong lead towards scum.

Wow...I cant believe I read what I did.
Spawn...scum does not fly "low"
Bitmap put it in very good words on how scum can operate. Everyone plays scum differently, which is why we have power roles to aid us in this matter. I am glad you guys are you using the power of the vote to "pressure me" , but also I would like to note that lack of posting sometimes does deal with RL. I was setting up for college and I haven't been home much but I am done with that now.

Now...for the great part.

Jesus christ I'm tired of you guys. You keep going after me because I'm saying WIFOM stuff but the only thing is that I answered a question which MP5 asked of everyone few pages back. He asked where you think scum is often. ALL I did was answer him. I even included that scum can be in any of that category and that you don't have to fly low to be a scum. Maybe you should be going after MP5 for asking a stupid question like that when you only can answer with idiot answers on that question apparently.

[MP5]

OK, since it doesn't look like anybody else will bite on that question I asked a few pages ago (wisely) here is the analysis of that:

1) When did you decide it was a "stupid question" Spawnisen? Before you sincerely tried to answer it, or after you were called out for your bad logic? You just haven't thought it through fully.
2) The correct answer is that scum would be most likely to fall into the under suspicion category, because they would have most likely said or done something that would be a slip and they would have attracted attention. And the correct answer is also that scum would most likely be in the Flying Low category, because they would like to avoid the attention and not run the risk of slipping, so they would be trying to get away with minimal input. And the correct answer is that scum would most likely be in the contributing category, because they would want to appear as pro-town as possible and help direct our attention towards other players.

And that's not even close to an exhaustive list of motivations. So you see, the answer if you give it some thought is that scum could well and easily be in

any

category. I asked the question (and the more important follow-up question "If you don't believe its yours, why?") to gauge reaction to that. Newbtown will usually put in the thought and effort and come up with something resembling the answer "Well, could be any" ... newbscum is more likely to fall into the trap of "Well, scum wouldn't be in mine - (might give a reason/might not) but you should be looking in the other categories and not mine!" And of course, the more experienced players wouldn't bother falling into a trap like this.

Your answers are leaning more towards the scum answer than the town answer, Spawn. Trying to add pressure on kwll because you think he falls into the category you suspect, and that that category isn't yours, is a scummy move. Couple that with how you've tried to address the question, then only turned defensive/attacking once you get called out for your answers seems like desperation.

Spawnisen, please explain how you are not contradicting yourself between posts 137 and 142?

Oh why don't you explain why I am.

No, that's not how it works. I am not your scum buddy, I'm not going to give you your defence.

[MP5]

Also, I don't think I mentioned it but I'm displeased about how SAD has been playing since he's being dodgy as hell in his actions. Mostly gut instinct but I think SAD could be scum at this point.

No, you didn't mention it. In fact, your exact words were

Also, SAD isn't playing by his scum meta so he's probably town.

probably town

dodgy as hell

So at what point did you decide to change your mind? Why? Was it the two lines he posted in 139??

I really don't like how you can flip-flop on someone so quickly - your second post is a scummy way of adding "oh, and I'm also suspicious of player X" and trying to set him up for future lynches without looking like you've changed your read overnight to suit, you can always point back to this and say "I was always suspicious of him".

Right now, paladin is my only townread, and that's worrying.

[kwll]

Wow...I cant believe I read what I did.
Spawn...scum does not fly "low"
Bitmap put it in very good words on how scum can operate. Everyone plays scum differently, which is why we have power roles to aid us in this matter. I am glad you guys are you using the power of the vote to "pressure me" , but also I would like to note that lack of posting sometimes does deal with RL. I was setting up for college and I haven't been home much but I am done with that now.

^^this.

reading up the people I missed

[kwll]

mis highlighted...just wanted to quote Bitmap explaining scum

[Spawnisen]

You guys are so searching for a reason for me to be scum in every post i make. You're seeing what you want to see. This game is really tiring me to be honest. I don't have the energy to defend myself against 3 guys in every post I make. Why don't you just lynch me when you're so witchhunting. I'm sure it's at least one scum going after me hard. Remember that town.

[Spawnisen]

1) When did you decide it was a "stupid question" Spawnisen? Before you sincerely tried to answer it, or after you were called out for your bad logic? You just haven't thought it through fully.
2) The correct answer is that scum would be most likely to fall into the under suspicion category, because they would have most likely said or done something that would be a slip and they would have attracted attention. And the correct answer is also that scum would most likely be in the Flying Low category, because they would like to avoid the attention and not run the risk of slipping, so they would be trying to get away with minimal input. And the correct answer is that scum would most likely be in the contributing category, because they would want to appear as pro-town as possible and help direct our attention towards other players.

I didn't think it was an stupid question until everyone was going after me for actually answering the question when the right answer, according to bitmap, is that scum can be in any category because it's WIFOM. Damnit that I didn't answer it that way, oh wait, I said that scum can be in any category in my first initial answer, because every person doesn't play exactly like the other guy. But that you guys just want to ignore totally.

I MUST be scum because I didn't answer the way YOU guys would answer it. Get over yourselves. Decide already, lynch me or not. I'm tired of this. I should just start playing even more scum like so it will be decisive.

[kwll]

Now that isnt very towny. So either your a frustrated towny...Or a scumbag who has given up....

[Bitmap]

Also, I don't think I mentioned it but I'm displeased about how SAD has been playing since he's being dodgy as hell in his actions. Mostly gut instinct but I think SAD could be scum at this point.

No, you didn't mention it. In fact, your exact words were

Also, SAD isn't playing by his scum meta so he's probably town.

probably town

dodgy as hell

So at what point did you decide to change your mind? Why? Was it the two lines he posted in 139??

I really don't like how you can flip-flop on someone so quickly - your second post is a scummy way of adding "oh, and I'm also suspicious of player X" and trying to set him up for future lynches without looking like you've changed your read overnight to suit, you can always point back to this and say "I was always suspicious of him".

Right now, paladin is my only townread, and that's worrying.

He hasn't posted for awhile. Took a re-read and he hasn't really given a strong stance. I said "could be scum" and not "is scum". Jesus Christ you guys have no idea what kind of fuckery you will get when your IC is scum.

[Bitmap]

Now that isnt very towny. So either your a frustrated towny...Or a scumbag who has given up....

Probably fustrated townie at this point.

[Bitmap]

Now that isnt very towny. So either your a frustrated towny...Or a scumbag who has given up....

Probably fustrated townie at this point.

Although if there was a vig in this game, he would be best shooting spawn.

[serrapaladin]

I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning, Bitmap. If Spawn were the single preferential target for a vig NK, he should also be the preferential target for our lynch. If you think he's leaning frustrated newb town, you should advocate lynching or vig NKing anyone who's more scum-leaning than him.

Also, that was quite a jump on your part from 'painting me scummy for questioning your vote/argument against Spawn' to 'jumping back off the wagon.' Along with your reads of SAD (see MP5's posts), this makes you look quite fickle.

[serrapaladin]

awestfie:

what do you have to say about Declan? Why do you rank Nekoko and SAD above MP5, kwll and me?

SAD:

You haven't been posting much since the arrival of Bitmap. Any particular reason?

We could classify people into three rough groups at this stage.

Under suspicion: kwll, Spawnisen, Superdeclan
Flying low (under the radar): SAD, Falcon
Contributing (to a greater or lesser extent): serrapaladin, awestfie, Nekoko, MP5

[...]
My question to all - ignoring who is in each category, which category do you think scum would most likely be in at this stage? If it is not the one I have put you in, why not your own?

MP5:

If you think scum is no more likely to be found in your "under suspicion" category than in the "flying low" and "contributing" category, why call it the "suspicion" category at all? I find your implication that we can divide people into these three categories somewhat concerning.

In general, 'level of contribution' and 'scumminess' are largely uncorrelated, but if you're willing to rank people into 'town', 'null', and 'scum' categories, or any categories that include a subjective degree of suspicion, you should really be confident enough to say your 'suspicious' category is more likely to include scum than the others.

UT: Can we also get a prod on Nekoko?

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

SAD: You haven't been posting much since the arrival of Bitmap. Any particular reason?

Sorry, got caught up in RL stuff. Will be catching up and posting content tomorrow morning.

[serrapaladin]

Your last post in this thread is on page 4 of your list of posts.