Open 459: There is a New Scum in Town. Game Over Town Wins!

[borkjerfkin]

I don't really want to lynch either of you.

[borkjerfkin]

penguin's not fighting her lynch, she's not fighting the system we're using, she's just making sure her scumreads get lynched next. This doesn't look like last scum mentality.

Wait, what? We must not be reading the same game.

Explain

[buldermar]

2) sig bets are against site rules

If anyone in this game has a problem with it I'll certainly respect that.

[buldermar]

More specifically, sig bets used as leverage on a game are against site rules, which is what you are doing.

Could you specify what exactly it is with my proposed signature bet that you find problematic? Then I can avoid doing specifically that again.

[borkjerfkin]

I have an issue with it -- I have to now gauge

1) your previous willingness to do such a thing.
2) your relationship with Mollie in particular. Mollie making you change your sig has a significantly different connotation than me making you change your sig, for example.
3) how much you value your personal space/integrity/whatever.

I mean the damage has been done -- I now want to lynch you less than I did. Everything you do in game should be with your win condition in mind. This violates that principle.

[buldermar]

penguin's not fighting her lynch, she's not fighting the system we're using, she's just making sure her scumreads get lynched next. This doesn't look like last scum mentality.

Wait, what? We must not be reading the same game.

Explain

Penguin is fighting exactly the system we're using and attacking the players in support of it.

Penguin is also not making sure her scumreads get lynched next. For instance, when I asked penguing who he/she wanted lynched next, he/she simply ignored my question despite being on L-1.

This look exactly like scum mentality.

You're 0/3.

Also, I can provide evidence for above statements if I have to.

[borkjerfkin]

Penguin is fighting exactly the system we're using and attacking the players in support of it.

Penguin is also not making sure her scumreads get lynched next. For instance, when I asked penguing who he/she wanted lynched next, he/she simply ignored my question despite being on L-1.

No, she's basically said she's resigned to it as long as you or kmd get lynched next (#1906). KMD in particular is fighting the plan and she's attacking him for it, so what are you talking about.

[borkjerfkin]

well, not attacking him FOR it, but she's definitely not attacking people because of the plan.

[buldermar]

I have an issue with it -- I have to now gauge

1) your previous willingness to do such a thing.
2) your relationship with Mollie in particular. Mollie making you change your sig has a significantly different connotation than me making you change your sig, for example.
3) how much you value your personal space/integrity/whatever.

I mean the damage has been done -- I now want to lynch you less than I did. Everything you do in game should be with your win condition in mind. This violates that principle.

You have to evaluate everything I do in the game - I don't understand why signature bets speficially is an issue.

For instance, if the bet is a poem that the loser has to write to the winner, you'd have to go over the exact same steps.

It's not even limited to bets. If I merely write a poem to mollie in the middle of this game you'd have to go over the steps you mention.

[buldermar]

Penguin is fighting exactly the system we're using and attacking the players in support of it.

Penguin is also not making sure her scumreads get lynched next. For instance, when I asked penguing who he/she wanted lynched next, he/she simply ignored my question despite being on L-1.

No, she's basically said she's resigned to it as long as you or kmd get lynched next (#1906). KMD in particular is fighting the plan and she's attacking him for it, so what are you talking about.

This was after I explicitly pointed out what she was doing and therefore could easily be in response to me pointing out how she wasn't doing this before.

I'll show you if you promise to read carefully.

[borkjerfkin]

For instance, if the bet is a poem that the loser has to write to the winner, you'd have to go over the exact same steps.

And I'd be equally as put off by it.

Why are you making me defend my position here? I said I had a problem with it and I said why.

p-edit: by all means.

[borkjerfkin]

i'm away for like 90 min.

[buldermar]

...so three people think Nachomamma8 is scummy enough to vote, and even though he's been saying I'm cleared due to role interactions and should be last on a lynching list, suddenly I'm a scum pick with no reason given. And rather than attempt to put together an argument, he decides to put forward a popcorn lynching idea (which I can only assume Majiffy went with for the laughs) and self-hammer as town before everyone had checked in for the day. And this is the guy whose plan you want to follow. Brilliant. About the only positive I see is that it was put forward by now-confirmed town, so as misguided as it may be, it's not coming from scum. I'd have objected more strenuously last day phase if I'd realized Nachomamma8 had self-hammered, but it would have been all over but the twilight anyways, so here we are.

If y'all are gung-ho on following this asinine plan, fine, but I hope you can get back to actual scum-hunting at some point. Because I've certainly seen my share of games where most of the scum team gets strung up early and the last scum standing weasels his way to a victory because everyone thinks they have plenty of time to lynch haphazardly.

I don't have a lot of faith in my scum detection skills this game, as my two top suspects became obvtown with uctriton00's scum flip and the director's presumed action two nights ago, plus there's at least one person who hasn't posted since uctriton00's flip. Even so, if you really want to go with this, I'd appreciate 24 hours to let me reassess my reads. I'd like to leave the town with some thoughts to move forward with.

= does not like plan + does not mention next lynch.

Right

penguin, who's after you?

=me asking specifically.

At the risk of encouraging this descent into roulette, one scum left, pirate mollie.

Maenara, by my reckoning I'd count you as the closest thing we have to guaranteed town. That's one. Then there's the idea that uctriton00 was not likely pushing his buddy's lynch as emphatically as he did Nobody Special's, making Nobody Special the next best thing to likely town. After that, I don't think there's anyone who has a good case for being lynchproof. In order for popcorn lynching to be a viable plan for the rest of the game, we need four lynchproof people, one for each remaining night kill and two to form a majority at LyLo. I can't see where you (Maenara) come up with three other people you're willing to bet the game on being town right now. Others might have it easier, as they are at least pretending to work from the self-confirmed town POV, but that still leaves everyone needing one absolutely immutable town read aside from themselves, Maenara, and Nobody Special, and based on Kmd4390's vote, at least one other person doesn't believe that Nobody Special is cleared by uctriton00's flip.

buldermar, since you're apparently in favor of this popcorn lynching plan to string up someone who was under protection on a no-kill night, who are your three other unlynchables besides yourself (yes, this means you can't put yourself down as one of your town reads like you did in replying to pirate mollie's survey) to make this plan work? I'm assuming borkjerfkin's haven't changed from buldermar, Nobody Special, and Maenara, although I don't concur that buldermar getting involved in the JK planning discussion was overly town. Given that I suspect scum had a bead on the director for his pushing me out of nowhere following a no-kill night, the whole thing was probably moot.

Nothing's happened since Day 3 to change my town read on pirate mollie. It seems rather convoluted for borkjerfkin to get the ball rolling on the JK target planning if he was just going to kill the most likely JK directly, moving him down my list. I'm reserving my thoughts on Kmd4390 until I hear why he thinks Nobody Special is scum post-uctriton00 flip. He was initially going to give us a case on buldermar if uctriton00 flipped scum, which happened, so I would like to know why that's changed.

buldermar on the other hand spends a lot of time encouraging the JK target speculation, messes around with the uctriton00 wagon a lot via jumping on and off, to the point of trying to derail it in the same post where he votes for him:

Isn't Uct wagon a bit dated, though?

VOTE: uct

and waltzes in today with the easy UTR vote. He avoids putting forward information where possible, as in his three town/scum reads where he basically lists two for each, and tries to smoke out PRs with things like his posting at the start of Day 3 about implying that he saved pirate mollie, when we know based on flips that such was not the case.

VOTE: Buldermar

=ignoring me asking specifically + making up reasons to vote me instead of following the plan

At the risk of encouraging this descent into roulette, one scum left, pirate mollie.

Maenara, by my reckoning I'd count you as the closest thing we have to guaranteed town. That's one. Then there's the idea that uctriton00 was not likely pushing his buddy's lynch as emphatically as he did Nobody Special's, making Nobody Special the next best thing to likely town. After that, I don't think there's anyone who has a good case for being lynchproof. In order for popcorn lynching to be a viable plan for the rest of the game, we need four lynchproof people, one for each remaining night kill and two to form a majority at LyLo. I can't see where you (Maenara) come up with three other people you're willing to bet the game on being town right now. Others might have it easier, as they are at least pretending to work from the self-confirmed town POV, but that still leaves everyone needing one absolutely immutable town read aside from themselves, Maenara, and Nobody Special, and based on Kmd4390's vote, at least one other person doesn't believe that Nobody Special is cleared by uctriton00's flip.

buldermar, since you're apparently in favor of this popcorn lynching plan to string up someone who was under protection on a no-kill night, who are your three other unlynchables besides yourself (yes, this means you can't put yourself down as one of your town reads like you did in replying to pirate mollie's survey) to make this plan work? I'm assuming borkjerfkin's haven't changed from buldermar, Nobody Special, and Maenara, although I don't concur that buldermar getting involved in the JK planning discussion was overly town. Given that I suspect scum had a bead on the director for his pushing me out of nowhere following a no-kill night, the whole thing was probably moot.

Nothing's happened since Day 3 to change my town read on pirate mollie. It seems rather convoluted for borkjerfkin to get the ball rolling on the JK target planning if he was just going to kill the most likely JK directly, moving him down my list. I'm reserving my thoughts on Kmd4390 until I hear why he thinks Nobody Special is scum post-uctriton00 flip. He was initially going to give us a case on buldermar if uctriton00 flipped scum, which happened, so I would like to know why that's changed.

buldermar on the other hand spends a lot of time encouraging the JK target speculation, messes around with the uctriton00 wagon a lot via jumping on and off, to the point of trying to derail it in the same post where he votes for him:

Isn't Uct wagon a bit dated, though?

VOTE: uct

and waltzes in today with the easy UTR vote. He avoids putting forward information where possible, as in his three town/scum reads where he basically lists two for each, and tries to smoke out PRs with things like his posting at the start of Day 3 about implying that he saved pirate mollie, when we know based on flips that such was not the case.

VOTE: Buldermar

I can see from your OMGUS that my vote is well-placed. I'll look into your argument now, I guess.

I'm not in favor of this popcorn lynching plan, it was instigated without my presence and I merely went along with it without any objections. Do you see the difference?

I do not have three other unlynchables besides myself, and the premise that I ought to have three other unlynchables besides myself for the popcorn lynching plan to be efficient is false. To my understanding, the most important advantage from the strategy is the fact that scum cannot manipulate town into certain lynches, and the next lynch will always be dictated by a confirmed town.

There is no plan that guarantees us a win

, so you can't say that because this plan doesn't, it doesn't work. That's just silly and stupid and you should be ashamed.

You claim that I spend a lot of time encouraging the JK target speculation. This is very true, as I sincerely believe that doing so at the time was optimal for town. We needed to figure out what to do, from a global perspective, so that we all could agree that this would without a doubt be the best strategy. And we did.

You also claim that I messed around with the uctriton00 wagon a lot via jumping on and off to the point of trying to derail it in the same post where I voted for him. Let me make some things clear for you:
1) I was very explicit about my intend all of the time, namely that I read Majiffy's case on uct, agreed with it and, as such, wanted uct lynched. I intended to hammer him whenever I would get the chance and made this explicit. I unvoted him in order to get the option of hammering him, which I also made explicit.
2) What you refer to as me trying to "derail it" was sarcasm and a direct reference to something Majiffy said in a prior post:

I guess.

Isn't Paris Hilton a bit dated to be making jokes about, though?

The fact that you could possibly miss this is evidence that you either a) do not pay attention to the game or b) are trying to get me mislynched. Either of these correlates with scum-alignment.

The claim that I avoid putting forward information where possible is outright false. In fact I attempted to be extremely specific and sincere in my reads by not "making up" a 3rd scum read when I only had 2.

The claim that I tried to smoke out PRs with things like my posting at the start of Day 3 implying that I saved private mollie is also false. Multiple people in this game know that this is a reference to a prior game that I played in which I jokingly claimed to have saved someone and wrongfully got lynched for it because several people did not trust that it was sarcasm.


I want to make some

addition points for others to read:

You make several points that could have been made at any point prior to this. That is, this case was "pre-made" and you have just been waiting for an opportunity to post it. If you thought that all of these matters were true, you would have pointed them out already, but you didn't. This is because you're a scum who is now seing a good opportunity to attempt to get me mislynched.

All of the claims that you make are either simply wrong (e.g. the claim of me trying to derail the uct wagon based on my reference to Majiffy's post), or, alternatively, right but not indicative of alignment the way you think they are (e.g. the claim about spending time encouraging JK target speculation).

I want to make it perfectly clear that

I am now voting penguin because I consider penguin scum based on the above analysis.

=me pointing this out

Nothing I haven't already voiced. And if you're really going to stick with this plan, then yes, I want buldermar for the next lynch. As was the obvious answer to your question after my post, buldermar. Why would I have fed a game plan I think is ill-advised by only saying what you wanted me to say? And as back-up, in case I'm wrong and scum is someone else who NKs buldermar, I'd put Kmd4390 as my next best scum read for reasons I've discussed in the past.

And Maenara, your idea that us stringing up those people post-flip confirmed townies tell us to isn't so sensible--you yourself are the next best thing to confirmed town, but you said that your reads shouldn't be sheeped. Why are Nachomamma8's any better?

=her adapting to what I pointed out=now willing to follow the plan + mentions who she wants lynched next.


So, she displayed the behavior you consider scummy

before

she displayed the behavior you consider non-scummy. Furthermore, she only displayed the non-scummy behavior

after

I had pointed out how the previously displayed behavior is scummy.

[buldermar]

For instance, if the bet is a poem that the loser has to write to the winner, you'd have to go over the exact same steps.

And I'd be equally as put off by it.

Why are you making me defend my position here? I said I had a problem with it and I said why.

p-edit: by all means.

I'm merely trying to understand. You don't have to defend anything, I just personally dislike the "well it says so in the rules so I don't care what's

actually

right/wrong" mentality that you are displaying by rationalizing that, because you have site rules on your side, I should willingly accept your standpoint. I disagree with it. I'm only going to avoid doing these types of signature bets in the future

because

of the site rules and I certainly reserve my right to disagree with

both

the site rules

and

you.

[pirate mollie]

I have an issue with it -- I have to now gauge

1) your previous willingness to do such a thing.
2) your relationship with Mollie in particular. Mollie making you change your sig has a significantly different connotation than me making you change your sig, for example.
3) how much you value your personal space/integrity/whatever.

I mean the damage has been done -- I now want to lynch you less than I did. Everything you do in game should be with your win condition in mind. This violates that principle.

wat

this does not even concern you. as a sig bet vet from other sites I can promise you that sig bets are rarely an indication of alignment and are more about just fun. I imagine it has more to do with how mean some people will get with them and there can be ill feelings if the bet is not honoured that carries over to other games is why I think it is probably a site rule on here. but you are right, it is a site rule so okay whatever I just think it is a dumb rule but I am not going to make an issue of it cos I am not on staff here so don't have to deal with the consequences if the rule was removed.

anyways I think you misunderstand the nature of mine and buldey's relationship. I am a spoiled american while he lives in some god forsaken scandinavian country where they don't even have toilets that flush.

[borkjerfkin]

let's table this discussion till post game.

[pirate mollie]

penguin are you rescinding your scum read on ns cos of the competing bws form the previous day round and how eager uct was super duper eager to vote him?

borky I made a post asking if there were 2 scum left cos I honestly don't know what ratios are for this site. the site I play on range from 1 scum for every town 1:3 to 1:5 unless there are certain players on the scum team then they will drop a scum player and ammo and make it 1:6.

why is maenara cleared again? her don't sheep me cos my reads have not been very good post seemed genuine but isn't there another reason why she is cleared

[buldermar]

I have an issue with it -- I have to now gauge

1) your previous willingness to do such a thing.
2) your relationship with Mollie in particular. Mollie making you change your sig has a significantly different connotation than me making you change your sig, for example.
3) how much you value your personal space/integrity/whatever.

I mean the damage has been done -- I now want to lynch you less than I did. Everything you do in game should be with your win condition in mind. This violates that principle.

wat

this does not even concern you. as a sig bet vet from other sites I can promise you that sig bets are rarely an indication of alignment and are more about just fun. I imagine it has more to do with how mean some people will get with them and there can be ill feelings if the bet is not honoured that carries over to other games is why I think it is probably a site rule on here. but you are right, it is a site rule so okay whatever I just think it is a dumb rule but I am not going to make an issue of it cos I am not on staff here so don't have to deal with the consequences if the rule was removed.

anyways I think you misunderstand the nature of mine and buldey's relationship. I am a spoiled american while he lives in some god forsaken scandinavian country where they don't even have toilets that flush.

Darling, don't let distance become an obstacle in our inspiring relationship!

Only Jerome is a spoiled American and I do not even know of a toilet in my country that doesn't flush! I live in Denmark - we have a sociopolitical system that your president endores, and highly functioning toilets with at least two flush functions: one for pee and one for more than pee.

[buldermar]

let's table this discussion till post game.

Did you read my post 1937?

[borkjerfkin]

gettin' there.

[buldermar]

penguin are you rescinding your scum read on ns cos of the competing bws form the previous day round and how eager uct was super duper eager to vote him?

borky I made a post asking if there were 2 scum left cos I honestly don't know what ratios are for this site. the site I play on range from 1 scum for every town 1:3 to 1:5 unless there are certain players on the scum team then they will drop a scum player and ammo and make it 1:6.

why is maenara cleared again? her don't sheep me cos my reads have not been very good post seemed genuine but isn't there another reason why she is cleared

Because she was jailed last night in conjunction with a kill happening on that night.

[borkjerfkin]

buldermar before I get into your post does the middle paragraph of 1941 read genuine to you? Her initial thing with there being 2 scum left I initially read as playing dumb. I'm less sure of that now.

[borkjerfkin]

buldermar I'm not going to address any of your responses to penguin -- this is about her right now, not you. We can get into you once we talk more about her.

I think 1887 is a request for an extension so I don't have much to say about it.

I agree with you about 1896 -- this legitimately does look like trying to wave the plan away.

The problem I have with 1906 is that it's just not a very good game plan as scum -- I'd expect scum to continue to fight tooth and nail against this plan because it's the only chance she has. This really looks more like what I think town penguin would do and I can't seem to reconcile that.

[buldermar]

buldermar before I get into your post does the middle paragraph of 1941 read genuine to you? Her initial thing with there being 2 scum left I initially read as playing dumb. I'm less sure of that now.

In a game I played on a different site, she was the GM. In that game I was scum and made an analysis on how many scums there would usually be in a fair game. My analysis predicts that, given the premise that neither faculty has any power abilities, a fair game would consist of a scum faculty of the size of square root N where N is the total amount of players. We were in a 20 player game, so I predicted 4 to 5 scum players (I could have been biased in my analysis because I was scum and knew the answer, but the fact of the matter is that the math is correct). You also have to take into account abilities, but rarely does GM's give only one faculty strong abilities.

mollie told me in a private message that she thought the ratio would be like 1:3 or 1:4 ish normally (as far as I recall), except if she was scum, then it would be 1:6. I think that's what she is referring to in her post, and I certainly don't think we can rule out the possibility that she considered it a possibility with an additional scum.

[buldermar]

The problem I have with 1906 is that it's just not a very good game plan as scum -- I'd expect scum to continue to fight tooth and nail against this plan because it's the only chance she has. This really looks more like what I think town penguin would do and I can't seem to reconcile that.

You can't hold that a) continuing fighting is the only option she has as scum and b) her not continuing fighting means she's town. That's self-contradictory because then she'd have that option as scum as well. For this reason, I consider it WIFOM and don't think it's indicative of her alignment. However, her previous post that I addressed is in my opinion highly indicative of alignment.