The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[jasonT1981]

And Jason is gone when he's clearly posting elsewhere

Shocking isn't it... I post elsewhere on the site.

Look, I cant post in every game, every time I log into the site. I will sometimes post in non game threads... I really hate the 'oh he/she is posting elsewhere' argument. I won't post in this game every single time I post elsewhere on site.

Deal with it.

[camn]

I will, though.

[absta101]

I'm sick and tired of his fucking bull shit.

ooOOoo.. big man!

Respect dawg, respect. Y'all don't know who y'all talkin to!

[The Baltimore Sun]

Day 1, Votecount 22

Shadoweh (1) - Baby Spice
JasonT1981 (4) - Ser Arthur Dayne, Cerulean, BT, TheGreatestAmericanHero
SafetyDance (4) - ChannelDelibird, petapan, McStab, sottyrulez
The Mini-Librarian (1) - Shadoweh
petapan (3) - Benmage, The Mini-Librarian, SafetyDance
McStab (4) - Plessiezarus, camn, Nostredeus, Deasvail
camn (1) - absta101

Not voting (1):

JasonT1981

• With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 6th of February at 5:30pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-02-06 13:30:28)
  
• Baby Spice is V/la.

[jasonT1981]

Btw Re: Jason's "gambit" (because I think I saw someone mention it earlier - think it was scotty/zach and rofl)- How does post 43 possibliy match up with 51. Tbh, I don't really see anything that exactly "BLEW" up his gambit, and his post prob gives the most info into revealing "the gambit". The gambit is also hilariously bad because a) anyone even remotley familar with the show knows that the drug-dealers are all black,

While yes, from memory we have also had a few say they are not familair with the show.. worth a shot in the dark.

b) scum very very very most likely have claims, so suggest name-claims from those with "white" characters is either really reaally naive (which I don't think Jason would be) or is scummy just wanting to look busy

Again, see above... was a long shot, but worth taking a chance. It was a weak gambit I admit, and a shot in the dark.. but it got some discussion going and people like yourself getting over defensive about it...

Hold up niqqa let me get this straight... I was in "tryhard" mode (btw, please explain what "tryhard" mode is) , "looking to fit in"... when there wasn't anyone else RPing?

No, I was saying that you were over compensating, and trying to hard to fit in to make yourself look like one of the Barksdale crew IE town.

I like 351. Makes a lot of sense to me. Move Jason to a slight scum read. Probably not voting him today though. (Also Jason's latest wall-post-things are terrible. ugh.)

yea, when I get behind, expect wall posts.

lolol that's not a response please don't write that again or I'm literally going to lock my vote on you till you're dead. You wanted fucking reasons for me voting you, I gave them (before you even went on your tantrum of me not justifying ) and I end up with this crap?

your whole case is bad gambit = scum...

Also while you're explaining things mind explaining that SD scumread of yours because dear does that look like it just materialized out of thin air.

Alright, it goes down to the fact he seemingly voted you mostly because of RP being annoying and not actual reasons.. yes, you may think my reasons are weak, but I had them. I thought and still do think you were trying to hard to look barksdale.

He then, instead of commenting on the game decided to quote the mod and me asking if it was sotty/zach hydra... http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4667561
seems like fluff to post for sake of posting. He even continued discusion for a post about it. then admits to voting SAD but not having a scum read on him

It's not necessarily a scum read but its an unhelpful player being stupid

More tomorrow, its too late at night here to do anything more tonight that involves reading and thinking.

[Shadoweh]

what is your actual read on safetydance, though, irrespective of anyone voting him(referring to SafetyDance)

I think people are making him out to be worse then he sounds. I will acknowledge that I could be wrong on it, but I'd rather not go there. In mafian terms that would be null.

I'm not -that- bad at reading you BT, for example it looks scummy when your posts are nothing but a bunch of quote strips.. oh wait. BT, after the rant about camn being scum and commenting that she jumped onto McStab right after Plessie, don't you think its hypocritical that your very next post is checking out the McStab wagon?

CBD: I don't care if it has your approval or not. It looks dirty and that's the truth. If you get tired of side sniping you know how to call my attention. Just take your vote box and blow.

Right Jason's gambit I remember why he's town now. his is not the kind of thing that changes later, he's town until he dies. So 2 wagons that I think are eh.

Reading absta's latest post:

##Vote: absta

If any of you would like to join me here that would be great. I will admit that I will fold onto McStab if there are no takers for what I want, but come the fuck on.

[McStab]

Alright time to plow through the shit arguments out there. Can someone, perhaps BT (I find his posts to be the most eloquent of my detractors) please outline, in bullet point form, the points against me?


Jason is town. Absta is town (I know his townmeta pretty well and this is townabsta). SAD is town. BT is town. Peta is town. Shadoweh is town.


I think Nostredeus is most likely scum, SafetyDance and Plezzie are next behind him.

Guarantee 100% scum are on my wagon. BT isn't one of them, and I doubt that both DV and Camn are (although I wouldn't be surprised if one is - they both are giving me a weird vibe, but I think that partially stems just from an all around difficulty of mine to read them).

Also funny how many people are setting themselves up to switch votes onto me and thinking they're ohhhhh so clever at how reasonable they're looking *glares at Shadoweh, BT*

[sottyrulez]

Camn

I'm pretty sure I read Cerulean defending Plees from Camn too which makes me urk. But I will look back again later.

I missed this- I would love to see it, if you can point it out.

I'm talking about this right here. Seems out of left field to me. The whole post is awkward.

Gonna check (skim?) some of the hydra ISOs to see if my gut rumbles amount to anything or if it something to ignore for now. While I do that, I'm still a days posting behind.

~Sotty.

[camn]

OK.. I can see that.
I read that as Cerulean still carrying on a little bit about our ADMITTEDLY OFF TOPIC discussion of hydras.. But reading it now I can see what you are saying.

Cerulean- is that what that was? were you defending Plez against me?

[sottyrulez]

Short post short till I get off this afternoon.

Waiting on rofl to get back to me, if no response by then our vote will be moving to Jason. sotty can go next. Their 452 doesn't address the main issue for us of why Jason is likely scum (Jason pushing this crap that Dayne is scum because his RPing is "scum trying hard to fit in".

Sorry dude, Jason is town, you're not. Sucks, I know but dems the breaks.

Not a fan of Sotty's reads so I don't know how much I'm willing to trust his unwavering Jason gutread. Can you actually point to specific parts of his posts that make you think town?

It's gut so no. I already detailed it a little with the tunneling, Jason is over eager as town. He gets on his high horse and casts down suspicions as if posting was black and white. With players he doesn't know he tries to make them fit into his box of right and wrong (see: Vifam). Other things are there too, posting tone a big one. But like I said it is pretty much all gut and experience. I can't translate to you if you don't have the same experience I do. I do know an easy wagon when I see one though, that's what Jason is made of.

Him attacking "the wrong people" is not even remotely the issue we have with him.

*Shrug* Never said it was, I was explaining why he is town. I do appreciate you actually showing your work though, a lot more than most. Just completely disagree.

unvote;
Vote: Jason

I'll address stuff tomorrow. Work/Daughter's birthday this week/etc.

lol

You cited irl as why he's not posting but in my experience IRL excuses doubly come into play when you're scum and really just don't want to post.

I understand the issue, but my site posting AKA pulling out of the UK scum meet should be clear that this is something real that happened. I guess judge us now that it's starting to be resolved, as in we should be picking up the new car by the end of the week. Last week was just a shit week, I'm glad we managed any posting if I'm honest.

So if anyone thinks they have a good reason for SafetyDance being town, I'd like to hear it.

*SNIP*

Unvote: SafetyDance

Vote: McStab

What the flipping fuck?

scott/zach, can you please EXPLAIN the townread on Jason? Like,

attempt

to convince others instead of just saying "take my word for it".

That's pretty much the extent of it I'm afraid. He is a terrible day one lynch and I will scream that to the rooftops. I don't have anything better than "because". I am surprised that one has actually bothered to ask Jason of our defense of him though. That's kinda weird now I think of it. But yeah, if you don't like our arguments for JasonTown, it doesn't get any better.

After I get done posting this Jason does actually comment. Timing.

Looked though the hydra posts and I am happy to ignore that for now. The defending was strange, but eh. Putting a pin in it. There are much scummier people around. Like Safety and TGAH. Lets lynch one of these two.

~Sotty.

[Benmage]

gdit I was reading and need to step out:

Pretty good first two post: post 456

I'm going to go ahead and post a little bit of stuff but honestly it looks like most players would prefer me not to wall post.

I'd actually prefer it if you would specifically post as much as possible. Having quite the hard time putting a solid read on you.

Why? Because it is in the scum's best interest to fill the thread with nonsense that does nothing to expose ANYONE's alignment.

True.... but as a game, we are all guilty of posting cute nongamerelated things from time to time. I don't like the insinuation that Cerulean checking in with his hydra is scummy. Not that guy. Some other hydra, sure. Him.... well now you're the filler.

And now, I apologize to everyone, I have wasted my 30 minutes worth of free mafia time this weekend talking about NOTHING.
I will not return to this topic, for the sake of the game. And please.. dont let me break my rule again: dont argue with scum.

Man I think I still suck at reading camn, but this strikes genuine.

[Benmage]

I like this post from SafetyDance

I come back and find I have to defend myself against a vote and post I made eight hours into the game. Sorry if I'm a little distracted?

^I've been accused so many times as just defending myself, being defensive and all that nonsense... WTF is one suppose todo when they're called scum...It's irritating as fuck.

Someone (I think Benmage) asked me about Peta. I think Peta's town, but I had hesitated to put him into any category prior to the last few pages; I think peta's one of the harder players for me to read.

His recent posting has led me to think he's town

.

Which post was this?


post 473 these day 1 scum team associations are just bad....

(this is highly hypocritical right now seeing as irl is keeping me from posting alot but I'm trying to get this out there)

I need some Zach loving too... I can't put a finger on sotty. I also find the hypocrisy quite towntelling.
I don't think Zach's the guys to lie about activity: post 490

I didn't think his vote for SAD originally was that big a deal, but after failing to achieve the intended goal (I think?) of getting SAD to stop roleplaying, and getting negative attention for his vote, he doesn't unvote for the longest time. The pressure vote has become useless, everyone's telling you to stop. Why not just move on if he doesn't actually want to lynch him?

Because he's scum that doesn't want to be seen as backtracking under pressure?

Possibly.

Ooooph narrowminded as fuuuuk

As I'm typing this though, I'm getting the niggling feeling that I'm actually attacking a town player

What type of fence ya workin on?

~~

American Hero: Why do you think sotty would defend their buddy Jason so hard?

BT: Why hasn't sotty's confidence in Jason town affected your read of him?

You following up on these end questions, ascertaining anything, or just trying to look busy...

BT: Why hasn't sotty's confidence in Jason town affected your read of him?

Because he's mostly alone on that front. If there was a strongly-reading town player telling me that, or a consensus, then yeah, sure. Nothing like that is happening (the opposite, in fact) and I even said I don't like the rest of his reads so that certainly doesn't help.

Do you think SOtty is more likely White Knighting or defending a scum buddy? It seems odd that scum would go out of their way to call as you said a census read, town.

(gonna pause here... walling again...)

[Benmage]

@petapan

Could you bullet the reasoning behind your two top 2 scum reads (Sdance, jason? if thats still them)
-And bullet top 2 town reads with a reason or two please.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

As I'm typing this though, I'm getting the niggling feeling that I'm actually attacking a town player

What type of fence ya workin on?

This just beat that Trevor quote in 'game of the year' as my fav in-game quote.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Wait no I think BB's quote from somewhere was also pretty high. So you're somewhere in the top 3?

[Cerulean]

Prod dodge for now, really sick at the moment. Camn, I'll respond later when I'm feeling better.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Yea that was from game of the year also.

pedit: obv continuing my awesome train of thought.

[Benmage]

Your read on sdance SAD?

Prob null with a sprinkle of VI?

My jury is out, and I felt VI as well... but his recent posting suggests otherwise. (definitely someone to iso again)


post 518
^abstas is terrible at this.

Alright time to plow through the shit arguments out there. Can someone, perhaps BT (I find his posts to be the most eloquent of my detractors) please outline, in bullet point form, the points against me?

*headdesK*

The first half is HOORAH! The second is...meow, you do it plssssss. wtf. Put me down as one of those about to vote you.

SAD, I can dig top 3.

[SafetyDance]

SD, your post doesn't really address why you didn't unvote, which is really the main problem.

Also, CDB, the inconsistency was that he makes an insignificant comment about a player he doesn't know the name of, and then later in the post says he'll only bring something up if it really sticks out, as he doesn't want to wall or whatever. This attitude does not really fit with the comment I mentioned, but I don't think this inconsistency is particularly scummy. Maybe it's something scum would be more likely to avoid. I'm not really sure.

Stubborness? Busy defending myself? I don't think you're quite grasping the fact I was only defending an early post, nor time as a factor.

Your second paragraph, well maybe you want to re-read the post in question again? There isn't any inconsistency, you're making that up. Not remembering the name of someone who made a comment =/= them as a scum read. Nor was I necessarily trying to avoid walling (read it again).

You know what I'm trying to avoid? Shit like this:

Spoiler: Example 1

You all get to have pretty colours!

Note that some of the townreads are really weak.

Town

Cerulean
Benmage
Camn
Ser Arthur Dayne
TML
Shadoweh
Nostredeus
ChannelDelibird

TBD

Plessiezarus-

I'm not sure I really get the hate on them. I actually like the first post, but they could easily be scum so far.

Sottyrulez

TheGreatestAmericanHero

Absta-

A lot of 134 is really unnecessary though.

SafetyDance

Vifam

Petapan

Baby Spice

Maybe Scum

JasonT1981-

I found myself kind of agreeing to things people said about him. Also reading through, I don't like his long post where he quotes and comments on things that aren't even that important. Also, his question to Vifam in 202 is pretty bad. It's a pretty weak read though and I don't think I've ever played with Jason-town.

McStab-

Yeah yeah whatever, but I stand by what I said. I'm not saying you have to sheep me (yet).

Spoiler: Example 2

Cerulean (Tammy/Empire hydra)
Benmage
camn
McStab
The Mini-Librarian

Vifam

BT
ChannelDelibird
Baby Spice

^ These people are town btw except maybe Baby Spice.

Spoiler: Example 3

You know what?
VOTE: Camn
I'm sick and tired of his fucking bull shit.

1. Camn is town.
3. Camn is town..

Spoiler: Example 4

Alright time to plow through the shit arguments out there. Can someone, perhaps BT (I find his posts to be the most eloquent of my detractors) please outline, in bullet point form, the points against me?


Jason is town. Absta is town (I know his townmeta pretty well and this is townabsta). SAD is town. BT is town. Peta is town. Shadoweh is town.


I think Nostredeus is most likely scum, SafetyDance and Plezzie are next behind him.

Guarantee 100% scum are on my wagon. BT isn't one of them, and I doubt that both DV and Camn are (although I wouldn't be surprised if one is - they both are giving me a weird vibe, but I think that partially stems just from an all around difficulty of mine to read them).

Also funny how many people are setting themselves up to switch votes onto me and thinking they're ohhhhh so clever at how reasonable they're looking *glares at Shadoweh, BT*

Weak as Budwieser reads that do nothing to help with anything. List reads (or whatever you call them) are not proper reads or effective scumhunting.

So it's not something you're going to see me throw out there.

[SafetyDance]

Your read on sdance SAD?

Prob null with a sprinkle of VI?

My jury is out, and I felt VI as well... but his recent posting suggests otherwise. (definitely someone to iso again)

You mean you haven't? What have you been doing this last day and a bit whilst asking others for their opinion on me?

[camn]

List reads (or whatever you call them) are not proper reads or effective scumhunting.

I agree. Its not a great hunting tool.

But

it DOES lock scum into a position on someone. That can be referred back to at a later time... forcing the scum into certain plays later in the game. For instance say, their townread (who is actually town) starts to get run up.. they cant just hammer them, cuz it's their townread. To mention just ONE example of the usefulness of list-reads. Not to mention the placement of their buddies on the spectrum.
Which is why I use/demand them from time to time. (which I am not doing right now.) It winnows the scum's options down as the game progresses. Strategy, man!

In other strategic news:

I don't think Zach's the guys to lie about activity: post 490

My read of the famous DGB-scumtell , "RL Excuses", is slightly different.
I could be wrong, but my read of it is this:
Scum are more likely to USE actual real-life excuses.
We all have RL stuff going on... except chesskid.... but when we are TOWN, we dont bother mentioning it more than once. Because our town righteousness shines through regardless of what we do- we dont NEED to bring it up every second.. But as SCUM, we are hypersensitive to things like, our activity level (amongst others), and thus we are inclined to excessively point out the REASONS for our lapses.

Thus- RL excuses = scum.

Like all tells, its not 100%. But the odds are there.

[Cerulean]

Sotty/zach - I don't have any good reason to think you guys are town, so the trust me Jason is town doesn't do anything for me at all. It also doesn't help that a good portion of your content is going to defend Jason, and not by anything other than "trust me". In light Of this I also find it somewhat ironic that you've pushed the "cerulean defending pless thing is irksome or awkward.". I would say its somewhat hypocritical, but it isn't exactly that...it more seems to me somewhat of a selective reading comprehension deficiency. In Post 532 you say that my "defense" of pless came out of left field, which reads odd to me considering that t was part of an ongoing conversation camn and I were having about pless and hydras. It should be clear I was trying to read not only camn but also pless, so I'm not following on the out of left field comment. I also don't understand why you, as part of a hydra who is self-referencing and experiencing "dissonance" wouldn't grasp me trying to make sense if their communication was real or fake. I'm not quite sure what to make of the semi backing off of it in Post 534 though.

I appreciated zach's description of Jason on Post 494 though some of it isn't my problem. I don't claim to be an expert in Jason's meta, I've only had direct experience with him in 2 games + 1 he was dead in before I replaced in. But, I read him pretty early and strongly as town in Harry potter...there were the mitigating factors of the not knowing the flavor dumb tell and one mafia member rvs voting him that helped, but still. He was a strong town read for me for other reasons too. His scum hunting read genuine as did his content. It's not here.

I know some people are town reading him for the gambit, but it reads fake to me.

Theres something else as well that doesn't make sense. In Post 452 you say that you've known Jason for about 8 years and have been playing mafia with him for 3 or 4 years. So what was the point of Post 23. Now from the original post from safety dance we can see that it wasn't listed as just Sotty. There were no names listed as your hydra per Post 117, so what was he trying to prove in that post? I've never played with you guys as a hydra and have limited experience with zach, and even I knew who the hydra was wihtout it explained. That to me looks like a fake dumb tell.

What is odd to me about his vifam thing, whom he's not tunneling on by the way so not sure where you're getting that is the manner in which he spoke to him. The "this isn't going to be good for you" reads off? He sounds fake and cocky in a similar way to how he sounded when we were scum together. He's also not really tunneling on vifam, he's mostly complaining about sad. (which by the way is the only tiny resemblance to what I've experienced with him as town. In hp he went after acosmist and thought he was scum mostly for his behavior)

What I also think is scummy is his complete sidestepping of the real issues people have voiced against him. He repeatedly keeps saying stuff about how we think he's scumm for wall posting, when the point has been brought up that it's that his wall posts contain very little content and appear to just be commenting on things to look busy but are trivial. Now if Jason were stupid, I'd probably ignore this, but I don't think Jason is stupid so this looks deliberate as a means of minimizing the legitimate concerns against him, which makes him look even scummier.

I feel like he's going "how can you think I'm scummy I haven't even done anything scummy yet.". Everything he's posted has just felt so orchestrated, and "trust me" isn't going to work, especially when I'm not town reading you guys.

I'm also not a fan of Post 521 it reads to me "see we can't be scum theyre not bussing!" I just got done playing a game zach replaced into as scum and he definitely didn't "bus like mad". We also hate his posturing around the safetydance wagon.

Ill post more tomorrow *sleep* now.

[Cerulean]

Nearly 100% McStab would flip town after reading him in ISO like I said in one of my recent posts. My vote may well go on Safety Dance as it stands.

More when I get back on.

Okay, why and why? On the off chance you happen to be town, how the hell is mcstab nearly 100% town, and why are you ready to jump on the easy wagon? Show me your thought process.

[DeasVail]

Sotty, I don't really understand your problem unless you didn't read my post.

Benmage, what's your explanation for SD not unvoting? I am not making any assumptions, just considering possibilities.

I'm also not sure what you expect me to do after asking the questions.

I don't understand why SD is saying what he is in response to my in 543. I don't think I said anything about stubbornness or defending himself? Also why is he insisting there's no inconsistency? He makes a comment on someone who he doesn't even bother to work out the name of and then says later that he'll only say stuff that really sticks out. It couldn't have been that important if he didn't even bother to check the name of the person in question.

And the attack on lists? Um ok, you're really really really town for that? I get it? (I think that's less likely to be a natural development from town considering the effort involved in getting the quotes and more like scum wanting to do something town and deciding on it)

The lists are mostly for my own organisation anyway and people can ask about reads if they want, so I don't even get the problem.

[Plessiezarus]

[Re: peta]How many (and which) games did you check?

[seven games linked to]

... well, I can see the pattern you suggest in the first four linked games, and the last. Don't really see it in NY 157 though? And Micro 49 is such a weird, short game (a double-elimination game that ended in forty posts, then had to be restarted with new roles) that I'm reluctant to even think about using it as a data point. Abarat does fit the pattern though, as I said. Hmm. I'm really not sure what to think, actually.

This is something we (that is, Zar and I) will have to argue about, I guess. Still happier with McStab, TGAH, abtra or Jason for the time being, but I'll try to make time to look for more Petapan games (ideally seeing if I can reliably guess his alignment this way). His posts are the sort I tend to dismiss/skim, anyway, so this will be good practice for me in reading that sort of playstyle.

But if you

had

to pick one of them as scum, which would you pick?

This is such a weird question to ask. Why did you ask this, Pless?

I think I explained this in 496? I find it odd that SAD, who has interacted with both SD and absta, felt the need to comment on ML's "don't you think absta looks scummier than SD?" post just to insist he had no read at all on either.

Also, #419 looks like he's just jumped on McStab because a few players were saying "hmm, McStab is lynchable".

Throwing in the connection with Plezz (as if she's conf scum) is another terrible move that seems more 'opportunistic' than 'genuine'

.

Don't think I agree with this. It would have looked much more opportunsitic if camn had gone "oh, wait, ignore my case on Plessizarus [sic]! they're innocent, McStab is scum!". It's natural for town, I think, to want to hold on to their scum-reads. Easier for scum, who never really believed in them anyway, to throw them away when they don't seem to be going anywhere.

SaD is harder to read (null).

SAD is definitely a pain to read.

You know what?
VOTE: Camn
I'm sick and tired of his fucking bull shit.

4. Camn really hasn't been "bullshitting".

You think Camn is right that hydra self-referencing is a scum-tell?

(Or, since that doesn't really convey my bemusement properly:

you

think hydra self-referencing is a scum-tell? )

Nearly 100% McStab would flip town after reading him in ISO like I said in one of my recent posts.

What do you see in McStab's posts that makes you read him as town? (Let alone "nearly 100% town", which I'm assuming is just hyperbole.)

BT, after the rant about camn being scum and commenting that she jumped onto McStab right after Plessie, don't you think its hypocritical that your very next post is checking out the McStab wagon?

BT didn't suggest camn was scum simply because she suspected McStab. He claimed it was suspicious that camn joined a wagon

started by her claimed top-scum read

. But BT doesn't have a scum-read on us. So I'm not seeing the hypocrisy here at all?

Alright time to plow through the shit arguments out there. Can someone, perhaps BT (I find his posts to be the most eloquent of my detractors) please outline, in bullet point form, the points against me?

If you've read BT, and found his posts against you "the most eloquent", why not just reply directly to those posts?

I know some people are town reading him for the gambit, but it reads fake to me.

The "gambit" is just ... ugh. It's not so much that it sounds "fake", it's that it doesn't read anything like a real gambit inteded to do anything -- in context, it's clear by the time of the "gambit" that people - including Jason - have already said enough that the "gambit" can't possibly work. Doesn't feel like something worth building a read on at all.

What I also think is scummy is his complete sidestepping of the real issues people have voiced against him. He repeatedly keeps saying stuff about how we think he's scumm for wall posting, when the point has been brought up that

it's that his wall posts contain very little content and appear to just be commenting on things to look busy but are trivial

.

The bolded is the problem we have with Jason, yes.

I feel like he's going "how can you think I'm scummy I haven't even done anything scummy yet.".

This is the sense I get from McStab's latest posts, too.

~ Pless