Huh?

[quadz08]

It really says something when CooLDoG is the one being entirely reasonable and Tierce, quadz and Kublai Khan are the ones being stupid and unhelpful. This thread is a walking, talking argument that MS is not newbie friendly enough. I really don't see how making things more accessible to people hurts the community. If we created a sticky thread, containing concise, clear explanations of how MS works and links to useful resources about learning how to play labelled something like "A Newbie Guide to MafiaScum", we'd be a better place. Also, if we lost the whole snarky, elitist douchebaggery from people who absolutely should know better.

I'm sorry that my standards of "a bit of intelligence and reading comprehension, and enough of an attention span to read the subtitle of the first queue on the main page of the site" is too high for you. If that's being elitist, so be it.

[Bella]

What you're basically saying is "I found this thing that is totally not clear and actually quite small and unintuitively placed, so fuck anyone who doesn't see it". That's the elitist part.

[Glork]

FWIW I don't think expecting someone to be able to read a subtitle and click on the link contained therein is an unreasonable expectation.

I mean, I guess we could make it flash in shiny colors or something. *shrug*

[quadz08]

Hey, after having a discussion about this with some other scummers, I want to apologize to anyone in this thread I was a dick too, pinkieseb and cooldog in particular. I'm being an ass for no real reason, and I'm sorry.

[Cheery Dog]

If they can't find it then they've probably never visited a forum before.

we would also have this same problem happening no matter how clear the page is - the simple fact of life its that it's always in the last place you look, some people just ask without looking hard themselves.

[Kublai Khan]

What you're basically saying is "I found this thing that is totally not clear and actually quite small and unintuitively placed, so fuck anyone who doesn't see it". That's the elitist part.

You're right. We should put up a sign or something.



Should I start PMing Bella every successful newbie-who-finds-the-newbie-queue-okay post as well? Because those don't even include the newbies that successfully sign up for games in other queues.

[Tierce]

Simmer down, KK. There's no need for that either. Some people agree it's visible, some don't, so let's leave it to them to propose alternatives for visibility--there's no point in adding to the fire, and this thread has served its purpose for the original poster.

[Kublai Khan]

grrrr.. KHAN SMASH.

Okay, okay..

[CooLDoG]

Hey, after having a discussion about this with some other scummers, I want to apologize to anyone in this thread I was a dick too, pinkieseb and cooldog in particular. I'm being an ass for no real reason, and I'm sorry.

Apologizing to me. Damn, dude. People should never apologize for being a dick to me...

Also, this is just my opinion, okay, but I don't think it matters how many people find the forum correctly, what matters is the fact that people don't. And, in my opinion, I think the site would be better if we made it even more clear (I admit that it is clear already) where to sign up for games. That's all.

[Konowa]

So outside of an automated PM, what do you suggest?

[UberNinja]

Just sayin, we should do something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/H8j7LXO.png

[Pinkieseb]

The only thing i needed help with is, what do i do when i get to the queue forum. Everything except that is fine -.-

Also, we have a LOT of these types of questions from newbies. You simply started another discussion about it. Not your fault at all I look forward to playing with you.

Thanks


Im ok with everything now and dont worry about making me feel unwelcome xD

[Nobody Special]

A while back, there was a helpful account that sent a PM to newly-registered players explaining things in detail. I can't recall the account name -- A Helping Hand, or something similar -- does anyone know if that's still happening?

[crywolf20084]

I would just like to note that there was a point in MS history when the Queue was the LAST thing on the mafia list, and not the first. If you think people cant find it now, think about when it was at the bottom...

[CooLDoG]

So outside of an automated PM, what do you suggest?

Possibly a sticky thread in help (we had a great image a while back that nothing was done with) and a duplicate in the queue. It might also be nice to put a button next to subscriptions that says "sign up" or something like that. Also, in the newbie game list thread instead of linking to how to sign up it should

tell

how to sign up.

[Kublai Khan]

And, in my opinion, I think the site would be better if we made it even more clear (I admit that it is clear already) where to sign up for games.

Yes, but what level of clarity are you seeking? 100%? You want no newbies to ever have any issues trying to find the sign-up thread? So should we also remove the math question from the account sign-up? I'm going to keep PMing you successful newbie sign-ups because I still think you're entirely oblivious to how close to 100% we already are.

You can't have a perfect system, Cooldog. Some newbies are always either going to say "tl;dr! LOL!" or have poor english or some other reason and will ask for help. No matter how hard we work to streamline the process. The only things you can do is cut down the number by making things clear (which I think a lot of people have worked hard to do) and/or just hope that those who ask for help are cool about it (like OP pinkie).

"Foolproof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools."

- Gene Brown

[zoraster]

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to improve a system, even if the vast majority of people find their way just fine if the cost of doing so is negligible.

That I think is the basic sticking point. In any decision, weighing benefits against costs is pretty much how we do business. I think most can agree that the benefit here is fairly small. But the cost is basically non-existent. So the benefits outweigh the costs.

So if you really want to argue against this KK, you need to argue that the costs are larger than they appear, not that the benefits are small.

[UberNinja]

you're both right, to an extent. the site should be made as accessible as possible to newbies, but to what extent? as tierce has already shown, the information is there, after a fashion. What is left to be divined at this point is whether or not the information is presented in as clear as possible of a fashion to each user upon their first visit to the site. and we should all agree that there is room for improvement in that department. just because something can never be made 100 percent perfect does not mean that it cannot be made better. we, as a team, should be able to identify these areas where improvement is possible, and make constructive suggestions and come to a reasonable consensus amongst ourselves about which solutions are the most agreeable.

[CooLDoG]

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to improve a system, even if the vast majority of people find their way just fine if the cost of doing so is negligible.

That I think is the basic sticking point. In any decision, weighing benefits against costs is pretty much how we do business. I think most can agree that the benefit here is fairly small. But the cost is basically non-existent. So the benefits outweigh the costs.

So if you really want to argue against this KK, you need to argue that the costs are larger than they appear, not that the benefits are small.

NET-BENEFITS BITCHES!

But what kk is probably trying to argue is that the cost of labor (in time) to improve the system could be used to do something else more profitable. He hasn't said what that something else is, but I understand his point of view. With that said, I personally think that it would be easy to improve the system and the time that it would take to do it is well worth the minor delays of other projects. That is where the disagreement is.

I think that copy and paste in the newbie queue from the wiki on how to sign up for games would alone be an amazing improvement that just takes a little bbcode formatting. Couple that with this image pinned in help in a thread called "Having trouble signing up for games?" and that would be great. Auto-pms take considerably more work, so they, as kk and others are saying, might not be worth it.

The image and newbie queue could be done in 30 minuets of time MAX.

Spoiler: image that should be in help

[Axxle]

This what happened when I got to the site:

Queue: This forum contains signup threads for Mafia Games...

Ok, click that.

Get overwhelmed by the number of different threads.

Oh, Upcoming Games. That seems like the right place to be.

Don't see any obvious place to sign up for any of the games...

Well that's not it, I'll go back.

I scroll down past the "game lists" (I don't want to see a list of games, I want to join one!) and see all these games in signups. All are either full or have really strict limits like "Must have played for a year or more". Can't join any of those.

Welp, guess I'm not playing then.

...

I eventually find the wiki through the link in the subtitle or one of the list forums or something, but it's not too hard to miss it for a new player.

I think a new player PM would help a lot, even if it just linked to the relevant section in the wiki.



edit sample PM:
"Welcome to MafiaScum!
We're glad you share our enjoyment of the game Mafia and are happy to have you join us for a game or few dozen!

If you're completely new to playing mafia in a forum setting, we suggest you take a look at the New Player Guide on our wiki, and sign up for a Newbie game. Our Newbie games consist of new players, but with a few well seasoned veterans there to help show you the ropes.

(more information here)

If you have any questions feel free to ask them in the Help forum, or send a message to mods X Y, or Z.

Good luck and have fun!
- The MafiaScum Community"

[CooLDoG]

Actually I was wrong, there is "how to sign up" in the newbie queue thread. I would like it to be in a quote box to draw visibility, but that is just my personal taste.

The perfect solution would be a PM, but that would probably take work.

[UberNinja]

This what happened when I got to the site:

Queue: This forum contains signup threads for Mafia Games...

Ok, click that.

Get overwhelmed by the number of different threads.

Oh, Upcoming Games. That seems like the right place to be.

Don't see any obvious place to sign up for any of the games...

Well that's not it, I'll go back.

I scroll down past the "game lists" (I don't want to see a list of games, I want to join one!) and see all these games in signups. All are either full or have really strict limits like "Must have played for a year or more". Can't join any of those.

Welp, guess I'm not playing then.

...

I eventually find the wiki through the link in the subtitle or one of the list forums or something, but it's not too hard to miss it for a new player.

I think a new player PM would help a lot, even if it just linked to the relevant section in the wiki.



edit sample PM:
"Welcome to MafiaScum!
We're glad you share our enjoyment of the game Mafia and are happy to have you join us for a game or few dozen!

If you're completely new to playing mafia in a forum setting, we suggest you take a look at the New Player Guide on our wiki, and sign up for a Newbie game. Our Newbie games consist of new players, but with a few well seasoned veterans there to help show you the ropes.

(more information here)

If you have any questions feel free to ask them in the Help forum, or send a message to mods X Y, or Z.

Good luck and have fun!
- The MafiaScum Community"

Same here, more or less.

Sometimes the simplest solution is not always the most obvious, especially if they haven't been here before.

Thanks for chiming in Axxle.

[chamber]

http://www.mafiascum.net/

Primarily a stop-gap measure. May still be tweaked.

[crywolf20084]

Chamber. that is pretty.

[chamber]

The design is mostly uberninjas, as can be seen earlier in this thread.