League of Legends (Old)

[lil g]

Just had a guy in the queue call "adc or taric".
Nerf can't come soon enough.

[Ankamius]

I don't understand how I'm gaining more LP a game than before.

[Glork]

I believe you earn more LP if the matchmaker paired you against "stronger" opponents. Not 100% on that though.

[Ankamius]

I haven't checked Elobuff or Lolking to figure out everyone's ELO/MMR, but the divisions themselves seems to be pretty big evidence against that. We had a Gold V, 2 Silver Is, and 2 Silver IIs against 3 Silver IIs, 1 Silver III, and 1 Silver IV.

EDIT: Elobuff seems to agree with me here. I don't think this is the reason for it. Hm.

[quadz08]

Riot feels sorry for you?

[mykonian]

When I build Singed I build for for " how the fuck do I kill this thing " rather than damage. That means getting a bunch of tanky and sustain items like Frozen Heart, Banshee's Veil, Sunfire Cape, Randuuins, RoA, etc.

I don't like building him for damage because I feel like that's not his role, rather his role should be more of the most annoying and unkillable tank imaginable.

I know, that used to work, etc. You build things that make you stronger rapidly. Building RoA/Frozen heart/FoN used to do that trick pretty nicely. That doesnt meant that at the moment the items change, your strategy might not have to change with it. In the end you are looking to maximise your effect for your gold. That whole post was trying to understand why apparently the dominant build for Singed is changing for the pro's while the dominant item (RoA) didn't get nerfed significantly. You build RoA not just to get tanky, you build RoA because beyond the point that it was already ridiculous value for gold (and I imagine it still is), it was even better considering you used it's most worthless stat (the max mana) more efficiently. Singed could get stronger then the average dude with the same amount of money because that item made him gain more stats for the same gold. (compare RoA with a warmogs builder. Similar money, similar goal, different endresult if they fought)

If you start opening tear on singed Myko I will hire CES to shiv you.

I think you might have to get him ready. Things are making sense.

Chalice could be worth it for mana if you're laning against AP? That seems better than tear.

If you look at just the numbers, tear is amazing value. Itś somewhat inflated because usually max mana isnt a concern. You need enough mana to throw spells whenever you want and fill up again when you are in fountain. Any mana you have left at that point is basically worthless. It didnt get used, so gave you no advantage at all on the battlefield. Same goes for a surplus of mana regen. Itś basically a pointless stat if you have too much of it, you only need enough so you dont run out.

Now, tear is by far the most efficient way to get max mana. Itś not even funny comparing it to other sources. Singed is one of the few which could abuse it. The effect isnt big at all, but it increases the value of the item. You get stronger for the same money.

Now, and this is why buttons might have to get CES, max mana is pointless if you never run out. Singed without catalyst/RoA runs out pretty quickly, meaning mana regen or max mana become a valuable stat. Key evidence would be that according to lolking, ending with tear as item, singed wins 60%: the goal isnt archangels or seraphs thingy. Itś the tear itself. Apparently one is looking for a cheap replacement for the mana catalyst otherwise supplied, for which it isnt unlikely that a max mana provider which is hugely efficient is a better option then a mana regen accelerator (chalice), or straightforward mana regen (philo, mana manipulator), flask (scales terribly)

Iḿ not really up to date with philo anymore. How terrible were it's nerfs? Because if you are looking for Rylai's/cheap scaling mana supplier/liandry's, that should be the main competitor for tear.

[TheButtonmen]

Tear gives no AP, it gives no tank and it charges up even slower then RoA. You're trading away most of what makes singed good (your ability to be a lane bully / wave clear) just to be a bit more gold efficent in the end game.

[mykonian]

I want rylai's/liandry's to be a bully, I think. If only they gave mana.

Rylai's + tear isn't that much of a tempo loss over RoA (800 gold).

And kind of the point is, people are building this and having success with it. It only seems logical to try out what they are doing.

[TheButtonmen]

Tear has a 51% winrate and RoA has a 62% win rate on singed in ranked SR games (source).

[mykonian]

yes, I know.

I wish we could see the history of those winrates. It's rylai's/liandry's which are interesting (with liandry's builders performing well above singed's average winrate).

And the build that I saw was starting with rylai's/tear/liandry's, which only makes sense if tear's only job is to be cheap and provide mana (see start of my rambling post), gaining 2100 gold tempo over RoA-Rylai's-Liandry's which builds liandry's when you got 10k gold together. And it had a purpose for that player, and he's better at the game then I am. Iḿ just here trying to understand when and why I'd build it (which sadly will be trial and error, hence you can get CES).

By chance, would have an idea about what happened to philo? Because it's the alternative I could see for such a scenario.

[TheButtonmen]

P.Stone went from 15 hp/5 to 7 hp/5.

[TheButtonmen]

It's rylai's/liandry's which are interesting (with liandry's builders performing well above singed's average winrate).

Liandry's is a luxury item, you only get it after you have RoA / Rylai's generally and if a Singed has made it that far he's survived the laning phase (aka his weakest point). It's not that getting Liandry's makes you a winner, it's that winners buy Liandry's.

[quadz08]

It's not that getting Liandry's makes you a winner, it's that winners buy Liandry's.

I think this is sensible, and is probably the most important piece of this discussion.

[Papa Zito]

I haven't checked Elobuff or Lolking to figure out everyone's ELO/MMR, but the divisions themselves seems to be pretty big evidence against that. We had a Gold V, 2 Silver Is, and 2 Silver IIs against 3 Silver IIs, 1 Silver III, and 1 Silver IV.

EDIT: Elobuff seems to agree with me here. I don't think this is the reason for it. Hm.

I think you earn more LP per game if you're on a winning streak (which may be defined as wins/10 games rather than consecutive)

[xRECKONERx]

yep

[Brandi]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ring#gid=0

Something my friend is working on, not done obv.
poor karma

[mykonian]

It's rylai's/liandry's which are interesting (with liandry's builders performing well above singed's average winrate).

Liandry's is a luxury item, you only get it after you have RoA / Rylai's generally and if a Singed has made it that far he's survived the laning phase (aka his weakest point). It's not that getting Liandry's makes you a winner, it's that winners buy Liandry's.

I know, I know. Lategame item etc.

Just as much I'm thinking tear is the opposite (you are slowed down and want to accelarate towards liandry's as others max out their health). I can calculate that it's insane value for gold, and although quite on the offensive side, together with rylai's you are looking at 800 health which isn't the worst. Not great, not the worst. Health and movement speed are your most valuable stats anyway (ult gives a bit of mr and armor, makes that slightly less valuable). Which is why you build RoA anyway. Lots of health and AP isn't wasted.

Oh well, that was my attempt at understanding what I saw.

[Ankamius]

I haven't checked Elobuff or Lolking to figure out everyone's ELO/MMR, but the divisions themselves seems to be pretty big evidence against that. We had a Gold V, 2 Silver Is, and 2 Silver IIs against 3 Silver IIs, 1 Silver III, and 1 Silver IV.

EDIT: Elobuff seems to agree with me here. I don't think this is the reason for it. Hm.

I think you earn more LP per game if you're on a winning streak (which may be defined as wins/10 games rather than consecutive)

Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Someone in my last game mentioned something like that, but it wasn't this concise. Thanks.

[Mastermind of Sin]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ring#gid=0

Something my friend is working on, not done obv.
poor karma

Why the fuck is Ziggs not on this spreadsheet? Your friend is way behind the times. =P

[mykonian]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ring#gid=0

Something my friend is working on, not done obv.
poor karma

If he has time he should attempt to find a way to throw cooldowns into that.

[killerjester]

I haven't checked Elobuff or Lolking to figure out everyone's ELO/MMR, but the divisions themselves seems to be pretty big evidence against that. We had a Gold V, 2 Silver Is, and 2 Silver IIs against 3 Silver IIs, 1 Silver III, and 1 Silver IV.

EDIT: Elobuff seems to agree with me here. I don't think this is the reason for it. Hm.

I think you earn more LP per game if you're on a winning streak (which may be defined as wins/10 games rather than consecutive)

Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Someone in my last game mentioned something like that, but it wasn't this concise. Thanks.

I know the inverse is true. If you're on a losing streak you won't get as much LP for a win. This is used, for example, to prevent sandbagging at Division 5 then winning a few in a row to get your way into the higher divisions.

[Brandi]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ring#gid=0

Something my friend is working on, not done obv.
poor karma

Why the fuck is Ziggs not on this spreadsheet? Your friend is way behind the times. =P

I said it wasn't finished, lol

[Andrius]

Just had a guy in the queue call "adc or taric".
Nerf can't come soon enough.

dude just because lots of people hate themselves doesn't mean you need to take away the only joy they might have in their sad lives ;_;

[Flameaxe]

Just had a guy in the queue call "adc or taric".
Nerf can't come soon enough.

dude just because lots of people hate themselves doesn't mean you need to take away the only joy they might have in their sad lives ;_;

Yeah, who would want to play ADC instead of taric...? He's pretty fabulous.

[Brandi]

Decided to give up waiting for my duo buddy and go solo queue for my gold
Lost 1st, won the next 3 in a row. Yay <3