[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Whiskers]

Did we get more setups with Mimes yet?

[callforjudgement]

I'd like to have a good Mini-size open Smalltown setup, but they're kind-of hard to design.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

So I have literally no idea if this is balanced or not, but I was just toying with the idea earlier today.

Elemental Mafia

(because I'm horrible at coming up with names)

14 player game-

1-2

Fire

Goons
1-2

Water

Goons
1-2

Air

Goons

2 out of {

Fire

/

Water

/

Air

}-Specific

Earth (town) Cops

6-9

Earth VTs

Basically a 1 goon would be effectively acting as a SK, but would still flip "Fire/Water/Air aligned", rather than "Fire/Water/Air SK".

If a mafia team only has 1 person (SK), they can take 1 night shot on either night 1

or

night 2, then can take shots normally on night 3+.
If a mafia team consists of 2 people, they can only take 1 night shot on either night 1, night 2,

or

night 3, then can take shots normally on night 4+.

[LlamaFluff]

I actually can see that expanding into a C14 offshoot

Something like

Two sets of (Fire Goon/Water Goon/Air Goon) + Two of (Fire Cop/Water Cop/Air Cop) + VTs

[quadz08]

I quite like the concept of the SK that flips as a mafia team. It's an interesting thing.

[Leafsnail]

I really like the general idea but it seems kindof swingy (potential D2 town minority).

[Faraday]

I really like the general idea but it seems kindof swingy (potential D2 town minority).

With 6 scum and they all shoot night 1 and no crosskills it's 5:6 at the start, but more accurately it's 5:2:2:2. So yes there are less town players than scum but at least it's nightless for the next 2 nights. It would certainly be tough if that happened but not completely unwinable, I think?

[LlamaFluff]

Well the "worst case" 5:2:2:2 can be a force loss for town without a mislynch so thats probably bad to start.

D1 - Scum A lynch
N1 - Three town death (2:1:2:2)
D2 - Scum B lynch
D3 - Scum C lynch
D4 - Scum A lynch
N4 - Scum win

Even with D1/D2 being both scum A, D3/D4 scum B its still a scum win with three town dying N1.

[Faraday]

It'd start 8:2:2:2.
I forgot to take into account the lynch so it could be 4:2:2:2 at the start of Day 2. Which would be pretty sucky for town, admittedly.

[Leafsnail]

I'd say it'd be pretty hard to win as town when over half of the players in the game aren't on your side, even if they to some degree work against each other.

[Quilford]

Maybe you could say nobody dies if three town would die Night 1? Haven't really thought it through, just an idea.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Hmm, yea, it can

definitely

swingy

Hm, I was thinking of maybe making a SET number of scums. Example, 1 SK/1 SK/ 2 goons. But the team names won't be told. Example, the "goons" can be fire, water, or air. And SKs will still flip "fire/water/air" aligned, so town can never be exactly sure if they killed a "team" that is actually an SK or not. And there can still be 2 out of {fire/water/air} specific cops. Same thing for the shooting. Not sure if I'm making sense

Or maybe something like Quil's idea? If all 3 teams shoot during the same night, and they all shoot different targets and there are no cross-kills, then all shots fail?

[Cheery Dog]

I think the different targets would also have to count crosskills.
Have it that a maximum of 2 people can die maybe. (but then maybe not with night 2 onwards not having any deaths anyway)

[JacobSavage]

What are peoples thoughts on a modification of this set-up Duck, Duck, Goose! That instead of limiting it to one shot make it unlimited but in doing so means that it takes (one/two) less vote to lynch.

Maybe have some mechanic where scum can reduce their lynch threshold in order to appear town.

[BBmolla]

I submitted something similar to SAD's proposal a while back.

I think possible 6 scum is too much in a 14 player game without town vigilantes

Edit: Never mind it's really not that similar.

[callforjudgement]

What are peoples thoughts on a modification of this set-up Duck, Duck, Goose! That instead of limiting it to one shot make it unlimited but in doing so means that it takes (one/two) less vote to lynch.

Maybe have some mechanic where scum can reduce their lynch threshold in order to appear town.

Broken. If it's known that some townies have reduced lynch thresholds but no scum do, people will use pseudovotes, then all pile on at once when there's a majority. (And voting for anyone before that would be treated as a quickhammer attempt and have everyone pile onto you in an attempt to lynch you first.) That makes the lynch threshold thing irrelevant most days, and dependent on who's online when at lylo.

[JacobSavage]

What are peoples thoughts on a modification of this set-up Duck, Duck, Goose! That instead of limiting it to one shot make it unlimited but in doing so means that it takes (one/two) less vote to lynch.

Maybe have some mechanic where scum can reduce their lynch threshold in order to appear town.

Broken. If it's known that some townies have reduced lynch thresholds but no scum do, people will use pseudovotes, then all pile on at once when there's a majority. (And voting for anyone before that would be treated as a quickhammer attempt and have everyone pile onto you in an attempt to lynch you first.) That makes the lynch threshold thing irrelevant most days, and dependent on who's online when at lylo.

That's partly why I was thinking of making the scum being able to reduce their thresholds as well. But I can see your point

[LlamaFluff]

That's partly why I was thinking of making the scum being able to reduce their thresholds as well. But I can see your point

Maybe you can upgrade the old broken Fight or Flight to something where all players have unlimited commute/vig shots.

Like CFJ said, things like "who can reach a computer first" shouldnt factor into who wins a game. Reducing the lynch threshold does that.

[JacobSavage]

That's partly why I was thinking of making the scum being able to reduce their thresholds as well. But I can see your point

Maybe you can upgrade the old broken Fight or Flight to something where all players have unlimited commute/vig shots.

If you made the actions for town non-consecutive (but allowed for scum to use consecutive actions)
And upped town to maybe 6/7? I feel that might work.

It gets rid of the problem of people constantly commuting.

With scum being able to commute they have to be careful if they get shot two nights in a row then they will be caught.
EDIT: How about if a majority of people use one action then it fails.

[Phoenicks]

A friend and I made this variant on 2of4:

Jx3

-5 VTs
-2 of: {Cop, JK, Named Townie}
-2 one-shot Janitors

The Doc/Jailkeeper setup is eliminated, and with the extra VT gone the town is never inexplicably weaker. The room for mafia to fakeclaim comes from the janitor kills, which can prevent town from knowing how many of their 2 power roles are alive. There's always one power role mafia can fakeclaim, and none of the roles can be proven.

The Cop/JK setup is the only setup with 2 town nightactions, but Cop and JK can't effectively coordinate. The possibility of a Janitor'd PR would normally stop collusion anyways.

Both mafiosi are janitors to prevent virtual autoloss if the sole janitor was lynched Day 1.

If a Jailkeeper stops a Janitor'd kill, the one-shot power is used up.

[quadz08]

Instead of doing two janitors, just make a factional 1-shot janitor.

[Leafsnail]

I like it. Does janitoring someone give mafia their flip?

[Phoenicks]

Instead of doing two janitors, just make a factional 1-shot janitor.

That might work better if the game ends up maf-sided. We wanted to avoid cases where the jailkeeper can stop the 1-shot janitor kill from failing (leading to confirmation that there's a jailkeeper with no mafia janitor kills left.) We're still experimenting.

I like it. Does janitoring someone give mafia their flip?

Yes -- that way the town can't fully trust claims if only two players claim.

[quadz08]

I can almost guarantee that game is mafia sided. 2 janitor shots in a game with 3 NKs, max? That's fucking brutal for town.

[Phoenicks]

(Since the town knows that nightkilled targets are townies, I'm torn. Players can't claim to clear -- point taken. But since the start has 2 PRs, scum have fewer hiding spots than 2of4 until a janitor kill goes through. With Jailkeeper* in 2/3 setups, scum's nightkill advantage is reduced. The setup without a JK is probably the most scum-sided, but even if scum hit Cop and Named Townie correctly, the game's not too different from mountainous because the town going in knows about fakeclaims.

If a PR is lynched and town sees the flip, that's separate from the janitor power. Worst-case is mafia janitors both PRs Nights 1 and 2 -- take away the janitor abilities and this situation does not get much better for town. If town lynches wrong Days 1 and 2, it shouldn't look great.

The opposite, worst-case for mafia starts with the Jailkeeper blocking the Night 1 janitor kill (especially if scum is lynched Day 1). Giving 2 shots and ruling it spent if the kill fails was one solution, not without problems. Should I have one janitor kill that works on the first successful nightkill? Should the mafia not learn who their target was? I'm not sure.

*Jailkeeper was picked to avoid Follow the Cop and because he doesn't confirm his target's alliance on a NK.)

Shorter: do you think that two janitor shots makes the game mafia-sided under normal circumstances?