/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Faraday]

Day 1, Votecount 24

penguin_alien (3) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh
Johhog (1) -Tammy

N (5) - Tierce, Vi, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien

Vi (2) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum

CrashTextDummie (5) - WickedestJr, N, Nachomamma8, Llamarble, Johhog

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

• With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 5th of March at 00:38am GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-04 20:30:28)
  
• Tierce is V/la

[Tammy]

Primadonna girl, yeah.
All I ever wanted was the world
I can't help that I need it all
The primadonna life, the rise, the fall

Dude. Stop stealing my songs.

[Tammy]

Okay, you know what this game is kind of difficult. It seems as if almost everyone has someone they don't want lynched today for personal reasons, and it makes us all seem like primadonnas.

click on the link, have a good dance, then read my post it will seem much more awesome that way!

Okay, Vi. I really don't know what to think. Vi doesn't feel like town, but I have no clue how to read Vi at all. In Castle Zar, I read him as town partly because his thought on directing the vig was matching my own which was truthfully not alignment indicative but it gave me a gut good feeling about him. Here, I really don't have anything. I'd like to trust CES and his judgment, but I don't feel confident at all in my read on CES. I *think* he's town here, but he revoked my membership in the "I can read CES" club months ago, so I'm all hrm. Anyway reasoning for why Vi should be a wagon would be nice. I know CES can give reasons when he really wants to, and I'm not looking for a wall, but something besides I should sheep him would be nice.

As far as CTD goes, meh. Don't feel like going there, and part of this is because I have a working town read on CES and he's got opposition to the wagon. And if he is town, his manner of scumhunting seems thorough and would be helpful, but I don't have any real reason to believe he's town right now. The only real reason why I would go there is because I actually agree with Wicked that when reading the CTD/Shadoweh back and forth for a second time it felt like distancing. I think Wicked is likely town too right now just because his thoughts on that matched my own.

I'm narcissistic that way

On my first read through of their argument I thought Shadoweh felt really natural, and she does, almost too so. Makes me paranoid just how great she feels about her case so early. Other than their back and forth making me feel prickly, Shadoweh seems townish, but I *still* don't like that she jumped off of CTD and onto penguin right after N voted CTD and made the wagon equal with Penguin. N's vote in Post 504 made the CTD wagon equal with Penguin's, and Shadoweh's jump off the wagon onto Penguin in Post 512 made Penguin in the lead. It feels icky. I'd understand it if their back and forth made her think he was town, but that doesn't seem to be the case so I'm left feeling hrm about it.

I don't know why more of you don't see how suspicious Johhog is. Empire, I re-read through his play and he still feels different than he does in either of the games I played with him. He just really feels like he's sitting in the background with everything he posts. His votes have been pretty meh this game. I still can't understand his vote on CES for not playing the same or his response to me that my response was facepalm worthy. I did, however, facepalm at his vote. >_> It's not about

playing

differently. Most people don't play the same way every game. I know I don't, but it's about feeling different. Johhog doesn't feel like the player I killed night one in Rocky Horror over the people who actually knew my meta and would be able to catch me easy peasy because I thought he was a dangerous player. He feels disengaged at a level that rings suspicious to me, and I'm not understanding how anyone reads that as town. His Wickedest so town it burns in Post 549 feels fake as does his reasoning to get on the CTD wagon. I mean I don't have a secure read on CTD, but I don't characterize him as someone who's trying to stay out of the limelight. It's also hypocritical in a really weird way considering that my problem with Johhog's play has been pretty passive and engineered to stay out of focus. I know he said there could be a reason for that. And if it's role-related, dude needs to get over it. As Tierce said earlier the NK list should be interesting with this playerlist, so as far as I'm concerned holding back for any reason is unnecessary in this game.

I'll still be willing to vote N if noone wants to come to Johhog and if CES or Benmage don't convince me on Vi and it doesn't take off. His iso is atrocious. I don't get the "oh I'm aggressive and alienating and it causes me to get mislynched so I'm not going to scumhunt" attitude. Like HI! I have a tendency to be aggressive and have had DGB of all people replace out of a game because I was "badgering" her for reads and I haven't been mislynched for it, so I just think "huh" maybe it's for something else. Plus, I remember in Black Flag him not really doing anything as scum. He went for a really easy target early day one in Piggy then pretty much faded into the background and didn't do anything, except for as Empire mentions fighting with another easy target in JesseSheffield, so his passivity here doesn't impress me at all. Nor does it that he did well in NY160. I don't like his "I don't know how big the scum team is" as this feels like a fake dumb tell. He also committed one of my favorite scum tells, in as much as I believe in scum tells, in Post 407. I did have this happen to me once. I wrote a whole wall of reads in marketplace mafia, but I was on my ipad and accidentally hit the "x" instead of the tab and had to rewrite the entire thing. However, every time that I can remember someone claiming to have just written a big huge post that got eaten and they weren't going to rewrite it, it's been scum. He's commenting on really trivial things. And Empire, just so you know, one of us was *-* close to having to replace out after I read Post 504. My knee jerk reaction was to talk to you on aim about how ridiculous it was that he thinks you're scum. It just really speaks to the fact that I can't follow N's thought process at all. But, it's probably because it's just not a town thought process.

I'd also be willing to jump on the penguinalien wagon, but I don't know how fair this is. I feel like she writes a lot of words but says very little. Shaddup I'm hypocrates. Her question to me in Post 291 felt really throw away. As if she wanted to be seen commenting on a wide variety of things but didn't have really any interest in it. I don't remember her following up on my answer at all. Also, hate hate her characterization of Deasvail's Post 24 as emphatic. (I realize Empire characterized it in a similar way, but he's town so meh) But, I didn't see it as emphatic or overeager or anything like that, just seemed like a regular post to me, so the interpretation just hits me as off. Likewise, her question to N in Post 508 feels throwaway. Her posts seem reasonable, but eh.

I'd be willing to join the N wagon before the penguin wagon though.

Town reads are: Empire, Tierce, Wicked, and DV. I'd like to believe CES and Benmage are town too.

Oh and I still need to read through TM White Flag for Llamarble and Nacho. I still think Llamarble is townish but... And as far as the Konowa/Tierce thing, idk I don't see Konowa's response as a big thing. (oh and Konowa, Empire is referring to my reaction to NS in Castle Zar not DGB) Konowa's reaction seems rather natural, but I'm not a really accurate reader of Konowa so we'll see as the days progress.

Sorry for the wall

[Tammy]

Oh yeah,

Vi

, what do you think about the votes on you and the people voting you? (I would normally ask how you feel about them, but I don't think acute/obtuse/right angles feel...they seem more like thinkers to me, so.)

[Llamarble]

Johhog is playing a solid game if he's scum.
73 would be a good fake job, and his vote generally does things that make townsense to me.

I still don't think an N lynch is a good idea.
243, 429, 272 "trying a new style" (not to be confused with trying a new game-opener) is often town, etc.

CTD is still a decent lynch option and I will not complain if we lynch him and accept some blame if he turns out town.
That might be the best we can do with no LET'S KILL ITs and only a couple days remaining.

Benmage, CES, and Vi are all maybescums. Certainly there is at least some nastiness in the tricky-to-reads due to the lack of obvscums.

And Penguin seems to have gone away while pressure is reducing, which is always sketchy, and she has certainly voted like a scumbag.
Yeah, I forget entirely why I stopped wanting to lynch Penguin; she is definitely a strong option for today and maybe better than CTD.
She and CTD should be the lynch options for today.
546 actually means there's a reasonably good chance both are scum.

Yeah, I think I might start yelling at people if we don't lynch CTD or Penguin.
VOTE: Penguin

Current best scumteam guess:
Penguin, CTD, Benmage, CES

Even if I'm still wrong about stuff, I think I'm getting close to grasping the thread of the game / finding its pulse / metaphor.

[Shadoweh]

Tammy, Johhog isn't getting lynched. Pick a real weagon and go with it.
I'm even refraining from replying to you because it's not important until you vote a real person today.

[Shadoweh]

You should vote for my buddy. He will totes flip scum and then you'll be all HAHA NOW I HAVE YOU SHADOWEH RIGHT WHERE I WANT YOU see it's incentive.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Current best scumteam guess:
Penguin, CTD, Benmage, CES

You think benmage and I are pulling a White Flag?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Okay, Vi. I really don't know what to think. Vi doesn't feel like town, but I have no clue how to read Vi at all. In Castle Zar, I read him as town partly because his thought on directing the vig was matching my own which was truthfully not alignment indicative but it gave me a gut good feeling about him. Here, I really don't have anything. I'd like to trust CES and his judgment, but I don't feel confident at all in my read on CES. I *think* he's town here, but he revoked my membership in the "I can read CES" club months ago, so I'm all hrm. Anyway reasoning for why Vi should be a wagon would be nice. I know CES can give reasons when he really wants to, and I'm not looking for a wall, but something besides I should sheep him would be nice.

See this bullshit push on 'marble (with an obvious motive for Viscum in this game), this nonsense (which matches her scum meta), her pretending that we have 4 scum (going with what's been said in-thread is the natural "safe" approach for scum). I called her out on all three and her only response has been avoidance (okay, granted, that's been her response to most things but it stills counts, dammit + smiley tell). + penguinblorgon basically admitted Vi was bussing N.

[DeasVail]

Sort of read up, but read clarifying will have to happen tomorrow (hopefully).

[Konowa]

Sorry I haven't been active, been busy prepping for an initial interview yesterday and got the call back for the final today. May not have to work nights and weekends anymore if all goes well. So I'll get something brief in after interview before work. Promise.

[Vi]

Oh yeah,

Vi

, what do you think about the votes on you and the people voting you? (I would normally ask how you feel about them, but I don't think acute/obtuse/right angles feel...they seem more like thinkers to me, so.)

Both Benmage and CES are people who I think would willingly jump at the opportunity to vote me for the sheer intrinsic pleasure thereof, and not people I could convince to do much of anything; so much like 90% of the thread, I'm apathetic. Benmage's vote on me is at least surprisingly consistent with his previous stance. The fact that CES is doing more than trolling per 583 comes as a legitimate surprise to me.

I appear to be the only person who saw something in Llamarble giving a pass to one person and not another for the same reason. Whichever. See petsPick for a game where I had a similar amount of joy being in the same thread as Ll.

I feel vaguely insulted by CES's description of my scum meta, and only vaguely so because it seems that a whole

bunch

of people think that I'm so incompetent as scum that I would poke
1) CES
2) who had no movement against him at all
3) with a terribly weak throw-away

"Pretending that we have 4 scum" is a terribly weak throw-away. It's not very likely that an SK exists in the setup given that it's an invitational and 4/16 is pretty much standard; that aside, yes, I remembered seeing someone bring it up (I thought it was CES) and went with it while I was out going :whimsy: on a different thought.

smiley tell

You're really going to pretend there are 4 scum, Vi?

Random thought: Closed White Flag.

(original translation: "oic")
Because random thoughts like this are not leading and just inane babble from someone who famously doesn't say much. If you know something I don't, more's the better.

[Vi]

Also, unprompted thoughts because I feel like showering things with generosity.

I've been teetering on moving off N for a few days now just for the sheer moxie/"too scummy to be scum" of it. Then I actually read whatever N's latest post was at the time and completely lost my motivation to justify it to myself.

Empire's list o' reads is, again, quite agreeable and at my current level of interest I would be fine with lynching any person in the scum list save myself. I can be convinced to Johhog per the previous conversation and while Wickedestjr's posts feel like scum I don't have the time right now to find out what it is everyone else is seeing in him; as it stands if someone wants to switch them, whichever.

A quick look with site search suggests that this is the best move right now.

Unvote: N
Vote: penguin_alien

(L-4)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I appear to be the only person who saw something in Llamarble giving a pass to one person and not another for the same reason. Whichever. See petsPick for a game where I had a similar amount of joy being in the same thread as Ll.

DV wasn't even being assertive and contentwise he had doubleplusreasons to lie. The only way to get a contradiction out of it is a focus on form and doing no digging.

I feel vaguely insulted by CES's description of my scum meta, and only vaguely so because it seems that a whole bunch of people think that I'm so incompetent as scum that I would poke
1) CES
2) who had no movement against him at all
3) with a terribly weak throw-away

1) and 2) don't seem very relevant if the purpose is simply to fake scumhunting. 3) is just you admitting that I'm right? People play scum badly all the time.

Did you not read the moderator blurbs when deciding what moderators to put on your lists? I don't see how you can claim that 4/16 is standard when I see two 15p games with 3-man scum teams in this forum alone. 4/16 is a high power game.

[Empire]

Ok so I managed to get some time in between preparing this stupid application/work to toss together this post. After today, you're going to hear a bit less from me until the weekend's over. I'm growing more and more confident that N + penguin are the best chances to hit scum and I'd support either wagon, though my preference is for N.

~~~

@Tammy:

The impression that I got from Johhog's play in White Flag was that he was just as passive there as he is here, and while some of the things he's done (particularly #549's throwaway reason for hopping onto the CTD wagon) make me twitch, I don't really get the impression he's scum here. I remember looking through some of his scum games and, surprisingly, he's pretty active and engaged -- main difference is that he's a bit more jittery/image conscious and more willing to conform with others' opinions. As far as CES goes, I'm leaning town on him, too, but that's mostly due to his back-and-forth with Llamarble and his comment in #259 about him which all reads like he's genuinely trying to get a read on him. It's really weak and I'd take it with a huge grain of salt since I really can't read CES for shit, but that's what I'm going with for now. With Wicked, I need to see more from him to actually form an opinion, what he's come up with is ok I guess but to a certain extent he's still promising more content so I'm waiting to see what he's going to come up with.

~~~

@CES:

What are your thoughts on Johhog? (Asking since you were in White Flag with him.)

[Wickedestjr]

Llamarble looks like town because of his reads and justification for those reads. He pointed out things which I had also used to read some other players. I didn't necessarily agree with everything he's said, but I don't get the impression that he's 'faking' anything. E.g. his early scumread on CTD- the point regarding the link didn't make sense to me, but I have a hard time imagining him coming up with it as mafia.

Do you have any reasoning that isn't gut?

...yeah, most of the stuff I already said.

Benmage- I can think of some reasons... nothing strong though. It seems like a very weak/easy thing to attack me for. Answer my question please.

List what you've come up with, (I'm trying to gauge your thought process) and I will be more then happy to oblige.

Possible reasons you might find my post suspicious-
-You believe I'm trying to avoid taking stances.
-You believe I'm trying to give myself room to backpedal later. (e.g. "That read was never strong anyway, so I'm changing it")
-You believe revealing my lack of confidence benefits the mafia.
-You believe I'm possible trying to AtE. (e.g. "WAAAH I can't get reads!")
That's all I can think of. All of these reasons seem weak/flawed, however. And for the record, I can assure you that I'm pretty confident in the stances I have taken in my recent posts. Your turn.


@Tammy- you say that Johhog is suspicious because his play here doesn't feel like his ordinary town play. Have you checked some of his games as scum? How do they compare to this?

Working on another post now...

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@CES: What are your thoughts on Johhog? (Asking since you were in White Flag with him.)

Vote Vi and I'll tell you.

[Wickedestjr]

What's the likelihood of Vi getting lynched today?

[Vi]

What's the likelihood of Vi getting lynched today?

Not as good as CES may expect.

Also Castle Zar (the 12:3 game I can think of offhand) was hardly an average-power game (2xVig and Gunsmith vs. Goons) so etc.

[Benmage]

What's the likelihood of Vi getting lynched today?

Better then CES... plus why would we mislynch town over obvscum?

More to the point. Tierce said this as well. But is this game a normal game? Look at the playerlist? You don't need to hold anyones hands here. A Vi lynch is easily achievable. I certaintly don't have the feeling that I need to grab everyone by the collar and drag them to the promise land. And I'm quite happy about that.

So yeah more Vi votes shes fairly obviously scum.

[Benmage]

Both Benmage and CES are people who I think would willingly jump at the opportunity to vote me

for the sheer intrinsic pleasure thereof,

and not people I could convince to do much of anything; so much like 90% of the thread, I'm apathetic.

Take this for example. This subtly dismisses both mine and CES' votes as nothing more then shock-n-awe.

Very crafty and clever is the scum Vi. You'll be enlightened.

[penguin_alien]

Tammy, I didn't follow up on your answer to my question about Johhog because you didn't say anything new or different from your first point, which wasn't enough for me to want to pursue it. All this talk of 'are people playing in ways that lines up with past meta' gets rather tedious when one hasn't played with most of the playerlist.

penguinblorgon basically admitted Vi was bussing N.

Come again?

[Benmage]

Benmage- I can think of some reasons... nothing strong though. It seems like a very weak/easy thing to attack me for. Answer my question please.

List what you've come up with, (I'm trying to gauge your thought process) and I will be more then happy to oblige.

Possible reasons you might find my post suspicious-
-You believe I'm trying to avoid taking stances.
-You believe I'm trying to give myself room to backpedal later. (e.g. "That read was never strong anyway, so I'm changing it")
-You believe revealing my lack of confidence benefits the mafia.
-You believe I'm possible trying to AtE. (e.g. "WAAAH I can't get reads!")
That's all I can think of. All of these reasons seem weak/flawed, however. And for the record, I can assure you that I'm pretty confident in the stances I have taken in my recent posts. Your turn.

That's a pretty solid list. So I don't know why you had an issue with my statements when you can conclude the reasoning yourself. I don't think its necessarily weak or flawed (Flawed, how so? Subjective because in your case you find it flawed, or flawed in general?)
--Just because it can be true statements from a person actually struggling doesn't negate the scum tactic. Nor does it suddenly make it

"NULL"

.. it can still exist as a tell when weighing someone altogether.
-And I wouldn't call it necessarily weak when scum do use this tactic. Not only that but our own mod Faraday has coached teammates to use this tactic.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

What's the likelihood of Vi getting lynched today?

15±15% right now, I'd say.

Also Castle Zar (the 12:3 game I can think of offhand) was hardly an average-power game (2xVig and Gunsmith vs. Goons) so etc.

Yeah, I know, I helped design the set-up. It was a cool set-up with a slight mountainous feel. Is that not what you're expecting here?

[Konowa]

Got the job!

Anyways, short post short since I still have to work tonight. Empire asked awhile ago for reasoning (these will be short, so bite me).

penguin - Dissonance between 291 and 447. The whole "champion" bit at the end of 447 also comes across as BoP (I know not the -right- term, but close enough to what I mean).
Johhog - His play has been allkillernofiller. Nothing is coming across as someone trying to find alignment, moreso questions seem to be leading "Why are you [Empire] playing different", for example.
Wicked - Initially, I said if penguin then Wicked (I still think this read 480) , and later revised to he can go regardless. 484 made me throw up in mouth a little. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but listing right people and saying scum is in there? Saying that CES is in that group but that he always finds him Mafia so he's untouchable, I don't understand the need as Town today that. Then the softball request for views on DV and Nacho with lack of follow through. Seems like a complete swing and a miss of a post.