Newbie 1336 (OVER)

reham008 · Post Post #75 (ISO) » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:39 pm

MrZepher... Why??
And how do you do the multiquote thingy? xD

JasonWazza · Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:21 am

↑ reham008 wrote:MrZepher... I jumped on the bandwagon because I just want to hasten the game so that I can learn faster, and it sure did.... xD
But I didn't change because I saw an opportunity...

Mr. E Roll... because if they're already inside a subgroup, then only a townie can make a lynch happen, and since all of townies...no, players are paranoid, they won't join the bandwagon... hence there won't be a lynch because of just a L-2 status.. (I hope) xD
And is that a persuasion to get my vote off MrRibbit?? >:-) And also, you're on the other L-2 bandwagon.. hmmm, suspicious >:-)
I'm a newcomer here, and my friend that introduced to this site didn't said anything about discussions, so I didn't gave them much thought, but don't worry, I have a newfound appreciation for discussions thanks to your 1st question.

JasonWazza... no, that isn't what I meant, since they aren't active, they haven't seen the votes so they didn't react to the votes yet...
and if both of them are scum, they can vote on the same person and get that person lynched..
My assumption is a useless one, since it assumes that two of them already belongs to the same bandwagon BUT I haven't thought about
the suspicion it would bring to the last two voters, so the scum would avoid voting on last two.
Since I forgot to think about that part, it is a stupid assumption.

My goal for this first game is to learn all I can.
I don't care about winning, I just want to have fun with mind games, and wow, this is more than enough!
And with this, I think I'm attracting a lot of attention, which my friend says is bad. xD
I still don't know why... but I think I'm a gonna learn it soon. xDD

And while I'm typing this, Xtian UNVOTED a L-2 status, which just opened a window for the scums.... -_-
More than that, it's the one that Mr. E Roll is trying to peel my vote off........

Question, is your first language english?

but on a real thought, no one is gonna get lynched at L-2 by a scum team, that would draw too much attention to the team and get them both lynched to a lost game

I think i am still happy with my vote, MrZepher can you justify your votes or do you want your wagon to grow bigger?

MrZepher · Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:40 am

Nobody's going to get hammered by scum right now because both scum are already on either mine or Ribbit's wagon.
Town should be wary of that fact and also of the fact that we're only 4 pages into the game.
Also, activity really needs to pick up. This game's not really a game if not everyone is participating.

As for my vote
Seems to me like he's trying to hide behind reaction fishing. Too content with his own actions.
Though I'm not sure how to take this it sounds like the opinion of others matters to him in a way that's not conducive to being a PR.

It would be wrong of me to point out that there's a possibility of a Jason/Roll scumteam for 3 reasons.
1. Nobody's flipped yet and there has been no active discussion outside of my wagon which basically amounts to "I'm voting you neenerneener"
2. It would come off as OMGUS which creates a net loss in the impact of that possibility
3. Back to point one, not enough people have contributed for me to feel comfortable doing anything other than pressure or reaction votes since I have no insight into the thought process or motivations of other players. It would be foolish of me to pick on one or two tells and claim to have found scum this early in the game.

The fact that Jason is voting me without having created an open environment for discussion, or having created the opportunity to get a feel for the different playstyles present in the game seems like pretty bad play considering the IC status. You're completely aware that you're doing it to (tunneling) which seems scummy to me.
My vote on Reham was based on a bad and potentially scum motivated post. I expected you to, as a town player, give the benefit of the doubt; not threaten me with an extra vote you don't have.

JasonWazza · Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:55 am

↑ MrZepher wrote:Nobody's going to get hammered by scum right now because both scum are already on either mine or Ribbit's wagon.
Town should be wary of that fact and also of the fact that we're only 4 pages into the game.
Also, activity really needs to pick up. This game's not really a game if not everyone is participating.

Considering for all we know both scum are off the wagons this is crap, you should be wary of sounding like you have extra info as scum

As for my vote
Seems to me like he's trying to hide behind reaction fishing. Too content with his own actions.
Though I'm not sure how to take this it sounds like the opinion of others matters to him in a way that's not conducive to being a PR.

To me he comes off as newb actually trying to learn by jumping in and making mistakes, that may be a misread but that is how i feel of him atm.

It would be wrong of me to point out that there's a possibility of a Jason/Roll scumteam for 3 reasons.
1. Nobody's flipped yet and there has been no active discussion outside of my wagon which basically amounts to "I'm voting you neenerneener"
2. It would come off as OMGUS which creates a net loss in the impact of that possibility
3. Back to point one, not enough people have contributed for me to feel comfortable doing anything other than pressure or reaction votes since I have no insight into the thought process or motivations of other players. It would be foolish of me to pick on one or two tells and claim to have found scum this early in the game.

you shouldn't be speculating scum partners till you have either a scum flip, or a LYLO (lynch right or lose) situation.

Also why are you so worried about it coming off as OMGUS?

Town would do it anyway, town are more focused on lynching scum then how they look.

The fact that Jason is voting me without having created an open environment for discussion, or having created the opportunity to get a feel for the different playstyles present in the game seems like pretty bad play considering the IC status. You're completely aware that you're doing it to (tunneling) which seems scummy to me.
My vote on Reham was based on a bad and potentially scum motivated post. I expected you to, as a town player, give the benefit of the doubt; not threaten me with an extra vote you don't have.

This enviroment is open, it's a forum where we can debate your scumminess, you are refusing to debate this and thus seem scummier, you haven't rebutted any of my points and have in fact made me have stronger arguments, and yes tunneling tends to be a scum tell, but at this point you look scummy, and i will get to other people eventually, this is actually a playstyle tell of mine, i tend to focus fully on one person yet prod at other people which i have been doing so it's not really tunneling, but nice try.

Also, yes i am an IC, i will do my ICly dutys, however i am not going to compromise my playstyle to make people happy, i play to win, and i play to teach, they are 2 different roles and currently i am filling both of them

If anyone doesn't see why MrZepher is scummy and says that to me i will make a WoT case against him as i am next to certain he is scum at this point.

MrZepher · Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:22 am

The only people not voting for myself or Ribbit are Ribbit himself and Brighteyedfish
Brighteyedfish's last post came off as town though I didn't look at it in depth.
Considering my current position I highly doubt Ribbit is scum. It'd be incredibly convoluted to assume that both scum have already been found by page two.
So yes I'm comfortable assuming that both scum are on one of the wagons.

I pointed out exactly the reason why I would be selfconcious in the opinions of town in this game.
I told you before you have to read between the lines when you play with me. Scratching at the surface like you insist on doing isn't going to get you anywhere if you want an accurate read on me.
And OH HEY You repeated something that I specifically pointed out to make me look bad. lol dat strawman.

You say you like to prod at other people but I haven't seen you actively engage in any relevant conversation with any of the other players in the game so yes it's tunneling.
Which is also incredibly anti-town (almost as bad as 1v1s but that's bad for a different reason)
That last post convinced you're not scum, just incredibly misguided town. My playstyle is really easy to read if you bother to actually read my posts accurately.

MrZepher · Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:23 am

Also OMGUS doesn't really matter to me so much as it takes away from the merit of my point.
That's just my opinion on that sort of thing so I'm not entirely sure most people share that sentiment.

Mr E Roll · Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:30 am

Nice to see some activity overnight.

Muffin

, good catch on Messiah’s vote count mishap. You are obviously paying attention but you haven’t really attempted to join any discussions.

In one of your first posts you asked…

↑ A Muffin wrote:So, how's the scumhunting going?

How do you think the scum hunting is going now? Do you have any suspicions you’d like to share?

reham

I’m not trying to get you to “peel” your vote off of Mr. Ribbit, I’m was curious why your vote wasn’t on somebody that you concluded must be scum. However, it seems like you’ve given it some more thought and have decided that scum isn’t necessarily on one of the bandwagons. Well done. Seems like you pick up on this game fast which makes me wonder why don’t you care about winning? Do you think you learn more from playing a losing game than a winning game?

MrZ

You seem to know an awful lot about people’s alignments:

Nobody's going to get hammered by scum right now because both scum are already on either mine or Ribbit's wagon.

I expected you to, as a town player, give the benefit of the doubt; not threaten me with an extra vote you don't have.

How could you know so much so soon with so little discussion if you’re not scum?

Also why are you disappointed about Jason not fostering an open environment for discussion when you seem to have so little interest in participating going so far as to vote without any explanation until being questioned.

Jason

Your read on reham is what my question about experience sought to alleviate. It was meant to separate the real newbs from experienced players who might decide to play the newb card after a mistake.

JasonWazza · Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:36 am

You realize there is a difference between OMGUS and voting who you think is scum right (assuming you have a reason)?

Also you should not be self conciious as town, there is no reason to be, your aim is to find scum and get them lynched, if you are constantly scum hunting and voting who you think is scum then you actually look town over your scummy self at the current point and give me like 20 mins i am writing up this case (it may be longer if i get distracted).

P-Edit:

Mr E Roll wrote:

Jason
Your read on reham is what my question about experience sought to alleviate. It was meant to separate the real newbs from experienced players who might decide to play the newb card after a mistake.

Trust me you would see the difference, i have played a fair few newbie games and the difference is kinda obvious, if it comes up in this game i will point it out.

JasonWazza · Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:51 am

MrZepher Case;

Point one the back track;

Spoiler:

Part two Calling himself town;

Spoiler:

Part Three Prior knowledge;

Spoiler:

Part four Not remembering (or purposefully forgetting) where your vote is;

Spoiler:

Not to mention on top of all this avoiding the cases that i have put out previously as they aren't "scumhunting".

This is why i do believe and am extremely confident in MrZepher being scum.

Also there are things that are playstyle tells over alignment tells, for me the "tunneling" you think i am doing is at most a null tell due to it being playstyle based.

BrightEyedFish · Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:57 am

I must say, I am totally agreeing with Jason's thoughts on MrZepher. I feel confident putting him at L-1. I know we are in the early stages of the game and I hope we don't hasten a MrZep lynch, but I think putting him at L-1 will put more pressure on him. In all of his recent post, I just get a "overkill" vibe. Meaning, his post seem overly defensive and more forced than genuine.

VOTE: MrZepher

A Muffin · Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:07 am

↑ MrZepher wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: Reham008

Why...
This is pretty scummy, id like to see some reasoning.

JasonWazza · Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:09 am

AssMuffin can you read further then that and actually find his reasoning

A Muffin · Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:06 am

Oh, god, sorry. I hadn't realized there were more pages, although I still don't lime how he didn't supply reasoning until pushed for it.

Roll:

Right now, people are making some pretty good arguments against Zephyr, so I think people are actively looking for scum. There's been plenty of evidence against him which is why I haven't changed my vote. I've never been one to make huge walls of text while playing mafia, so that's why you haven't seen any of them from me.

A Muffin · Post Post #88 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:07 am

Lime should say like in the above post.

JasonWazza · Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:30 am

Only reason i am against lynching him right now is information to be perfectly honest, be good to have more connections from him first.

reham008 · Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:38 am

Ok, the multiple quote in a single post is just a simple code trick... but I'm still lazy to use it. xD

JasonWazza... Uhmmm, no, it isn't, so sorry for any bad use of the English language.

but on a real thought, no one is gonna get lynched at L-2 by a scum team, that would draw too much attention to the team and get them both lynched to a lost game

(If the above code turns out wrong, sorry for my bad programming skills, xD)

To me he comes off as newb actually trying to learn by jumping in and making mistakes, that may be a misread but that is how i feel of him atm.

Ouch.... Newb seems a bit too much, and as a gamer, that hurts more than intended, unless you're a friend who's an asshole... xD (referring to a real person who I know

)
I just read the "Guide to being a good IC"... Hope you're town, because you're putting up good arguments.
But still, I kinda look forward to your teachings after the game ended if you're scum.
And what does WoT mean?? I searched OMGUS on the net already so that I wouldn't waste time with my questions, but I can't find WoT.

Trust me you would see the difference, i have played a fair few newbie games and the difference is kinda obvious, if it comes up in this game i will point it out.

Wow, you're like expecting me to do mistakes. xD
Please do point out all my mistakes at the end of the game so that I'll learn more. (Sorry for being demanding)
And how do you do the spoiler tag? Is it a simple open tag "spoiler", then close tag "/spoiler"?

MrZepher...

Also, activity really needs to pick up. This game's not really a game if not everyone is participating.

What!?! This is still slow? It is kinda the right pace for me.

Seems to me like he's trying to hide behind reaction fishing. Too content with his own actions

Can't it be because I'm confident??? And it's just only a game, so winning or losing doesn't matter to me unless ,of course, there is something on the line. ("Money, Pride, Embarassing act to do, etc xD)

My vote on Reham was based on a bad and potentially scum motivated post.

It you knew it was a "bad and potentially scum motivated post", then why did you base on it???
And JasonWazza's was just offering the idea of what you have done and it's consequences

(unjustified voting hence drawing suspicions and possibly votes)
It isn't JasonWazza that was tunneling you, it was your own action.
And if you want to play and sound smart, please do note that not all players get what you mean and be clear with your intentions.

Mr E Roll...

reham I’m not trying to get you to “peel” your vote off of Mr. Ribbit, I’m was curious why your vote wasn’t on somebody that you concluded must be scum. However, it seems like you’ve given it some more thought and have decided that scum isn’t necessarily on one of the bandwagons. Well done. Seems like you pick up on this game fast which makes me wonder why don’t you care about winning? Do you think you learn more from playing a losing game than a winning game?

Thanks for understanding.

As for the reason about not caring about winning, just read the messages to other people. It's too tiring to rethink and reword my reasoning, as it is already 3:27 am on(?) where I am. (Or I'm too lazy xD)

AssMuffin.. I was just asking MrZepher a justification for his unjustified voting.
It looks like you're fond of posting without reading all the post yet.

Oh, god, sorry. I hadn't realized there were more pages, although I still don't like how he didn't supply reasoning until pushed for it.

Are you talking about me or MrZepher?
You haven't reacted yet to JasonWazza's arguments against MrZepher.
It's either you haven't read it yet... OR you want to draw the attention away from MrZepher. >:-)

Lol, I hope it doesn't fail... (Please let there be quote boxes)

Guys, please read ALL of the messages I posted on a single post. The messages are directed at the single person, but meant for all of us,

And on the idea of lurking, how do we know that person is actually flaking rather than being a lurker?
Is there a way to find out when's the last time they logged in?

reham008 · Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:39 am

JasonWazza, regarding the 1st quote box,
Yep, I just realized that after I posted the useless assumption..

A Muffin · Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:52 am

When he did that vote with no reasoning it was on the end of a page, therefore I didn't realize that there was another one, making me post that.

Mr E Roll · Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:56 pm

Unvote

With over two weeks of the day left I’m not ready to see a hammer. I’d like to go into day two with more information especially considering we still have had only a handful of posts from several players.

MrZ

You seem to have convinced a few players, including myself, that you are scum. If you are town it would be very helpful if you post specific and clear opinions on the other players since it’s beginning to look like you are today’s strongest lynch candidate.

Captain Ribbit · Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:25 pm

Firstly, I apologize for being so quiet. I haven't had as much time as I'd like to browse the game thread, and have found very little so far to discuss. However, with JasonWazza's recent post, that has changed.

As my first vote serves no purpose now, I'm going to UNVOTE: Cybertronix.

I don't quite see why MrZepher appears so suspicious to all of you. However, I might be missing some shred of evidence that you, JasonWazza, have uncovered. If so, I implore you to detail it so that I can take it into account. I have read the whole thread to this point, and don't believe there is anything that you could have seen that I did not.

On Jason's Backtracking Accusation:

I don't agree that MrZepher's backtracking is scummy, or even that he is backtracking at all. Jason, your backtrack accusation against MrZepher is that he claimed to not be serious about the odds that both SE's would be of the same alignment. These odds are very low, 1/81 or approximately a 1% chance. He says that he finds it unlikely that Xtian OR Cybertronix are town, concluding his post by saying that he is being somewhat silly. You say that the backtrack occurs in post 53, wherein he says that he wasn't being entirely serious. How is this backtracking? I don't see much difference between saying "being silly, but not really" and saying "wasn't being entirely serious." I feel like you're reading too much into these minor details, and perhaps pushing your case against MrZepher too hard.

On the account of MrZepher's backtracking, I disagree with your logic, JasonWazza, and have trouble following the logical progression from post to suspicion at all.

On Jason's Accusation of MrZepher's Town Claim:

Although I do agree that being overly insistent that one is town does come off as suspicious, I don't believe that MrZepher has done this, especially not in post 64. "The only way your vote is in the right place is if you're consciously trying to vote town." I don't know how you went from these words to, "I am town." This quotation by MrZepher is accusatory, not defensive.

On the account of MrZepher's town claim, I disagree that MrZepher is calling himself town, and therefor find nothing suspicious about the post that JasonWazza has referrenced.

On Jason's Accusation of MrZepher's Prior Knowledge:

I disagree that post 77 implies that MrZepher has any sort of prior knowledge of scum movement. Although MrZepher stated his theory perhaps too confidently, his assumption is strongly supported by probability given the current vote count. Prior to post 77 and MrZepher's assertion that both of the mafioso are currently voting for either myself or MrZepher, both of us had three votes each. This means that 2/3, a majority of this game's players, were presently on one of our wagons. Given the small amount of relevant discussion thus far, I think that these odds do bring us to the conclusion that, although it can not be said with certainty,

it is highly likely that at this moment at least one, if not both, mafioso are voting for either me or MrZepher

.

You claim that you've explained why this logic is improper, that votes on day 1 mean nothing, and you've used two examples from completed games with name colours indicating whether the voter was town or mafia. You have specifically chosen two games in which you found that the situation was as you claimed. This is confirmation bias; you only chose those two games because they confirmed your case against MrZepher. I disagree with this entirely, and will provide two games during which the conditions were the same or similar to those of our current game, yet both mafioso were voting for one of the L-2s. This provides just as much proof to contradict your position as you have provided to support it.

From Newbie 1312, Day 1 Votes Prior to Lynch:

Deadlyotaku - 3 -

Thor665

, Machiavellismx,

Jackmm1301

- 3 - kushm4sta, Bootybandit, Flabawoogl
Cheery Dog - 1 - Xyria
kushm4sta - 1 - Cheery Dog

From Newbie 1315, Day 1 Votes Prior to Lynch:

Spawnisen - 3 (

kwll

, awestfie, Superdeclan, Bitmap)

kwll

- 3 (Spawnisen,

Nekoko

, Ser Arthur Daye)
Superdeclan - 2 (MP5, Serrapaladin)

On Jason's Accusation of Forgetful Voting:

Granted, it would be easier for someone who is "faking it" to forget who they currently think is scum. However, we are currently on page 4 of this game, and I don't think that any of us really have grounds to find someone else scummy, as we've only very recently started any sort of serious discussion.

I disagree with your assertion that MrZepher is scum because he forgot to mention his vote in a half-hearted vote count.

I find no reason to conclude that MrZepher is any more suspicious than I believed prior to your highly accusatory post. In fact, I'm feeling a little more suspicious of you, JasonWazza. Why do you feel the need to press so hard on such trivial issues?

I defend MrZepher not for his good, but for the good of the town. At this time, I truly do not find MrZepher suspicious, and believe that lynching him would provide breathing room for the mafia. Furthermore, I find it mostly unlikely that JasonWazza is mafia as well; in the case of MrZepher's lynching, if he flips scum, Jason would not have outed his comrade. If MrZepher is lynched and flips town, JasonWazza would have to be a very brazen mafioso in order to call out town in such a heartened manner on day 1. I feel that your logic is flawed, JasonWazza, but not that you are acting with bad intentions.

I agree that it was odd of MrZepher to vote with active suspicions but without explaining them before the vote. This has raised my suspicion towards him, though slightly. It seems to me the result of bravado more than scum nature.

BrightEyedFish

, can you explain this "overkill" vibe that you mentioned in a little more detail? I do not find gut feelings to be of much help. It is natural to sound defensive when one is defending themselves; I dare say that if you were defending yourself, you would seem defensive as well.

Reham008

, I understand that English is not your native language, but I am having some difficulty following your posts. I hope that you learn as much from this game as you seem to be hoping.

AssMuffin

, I hope that you'll see the logical errors in Jason's arguments. You claim that there has been ample evidence against him, but fall back on all of Jason's claims as that evidence, without providing any insight into your own opinions of MrZepher, or anything else for that matter.

Mr E Roll

, I find you to be a productive member of this game, and eagerly await your thoughts on what I've written here.

Cybertronix, Xtian, and Reham

, could the three of you please explain why your votes persist? I can understand Cybertronix and Xtian's initial votes, but I don't believe you have any reason to still be voting for me. If you feel that I am scum, please leave your votes where they are, but I would ask you to explain your reasoning to the rest of us.

In conclusion, I see very little reason to be suspicious of any of you thus far. However, I would like to hear more from BrightEyedFish, AssMuffin, Cybertronix, and Xtian.

Captain Ribbit · Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:59 pm

I also feel very uncomfortable with BrightEyedFish putting MrZepher at L-1.

JasonWazza · Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:14 pm

↑ Captain Ribbit wrote:Firstly, I apologize for being so quiet. I haven't had as much time as I'd like to browse the game thread, and have found very little so far to discuss. However, with JasonWazza's recent post, that has changed.

As my first vote serves no purpose now, I'm going to UNVOTE: Cybertronix.

I don't quite see why MrZepher appears so suspicious to all of you. However, I might be missing some shred of evidence that you, JasonWazza, have uncovered. If so, I implore you to detail it so that I can take it into account. I have read the whole thread to this point, and don't believe there is anything that you could have seen that I did not.

On Jason's Backtracking Accusation:

I don't agree that MrZepher's backtracking is scummy, or even that he is backtracking at all. Jason, your backtrack accusation against MrZepher is that he claimed to not be serious about the odds that both SE's would be of the same alignment. These odds are very low, 1/81 or approximately a 1% chance. He says that he finds it unlikely that Xtian OR Cybertronix are town, concluding his post by saying that he is being somewhat silly. You say that the backtrack occurs in post 53, wherein he says that he wasn't being entirely serious. How is this backtracking? I don't see much difference between saying "being silly, but not really" and saying "wasn't being entirely serious." I feel like you're reading too much into these minor details, and perhaps pushing your case against MrZepher too hard.

On the account of MrZepher's backtracking, I disagree with your logic, JasonWazza, and have trouble following the logical progression from post to suspicion at all.

Guess that one might be me personally reading into it but that feels like a major difference.

On Jason's Accusation of MrZepher's Town Claim:

Although I do agree that being overly insistent that one is town does come off as suspicious, I don't believe that MrZepher has done this, especially not in post 64. "The only way your vote is in the right place is if you're consciously trying to vote town." I don't know how you went from these words to, "I am town." This quotation by MrZepher is accusatory, not defensive.

On the account of MrZepher's town claim, I disagree that MrZepher is calling himself town, and therefor find nothing suspicious about the post that JasonWazza has referrenced.

You have got to be fucking kidding me, my vote was on him, he said my vote was only in the right place if i wanted to vote town, HOW DO YOU NOT GET THE LOGICAL MOVEMENT FROM THAT.

On Jason's Accusation of MrZepher's Prior Knowledge:

I disagree that post 77 implies that MrZepher has any sort of prior knowledge of scum movement. Although MrZepher stated his theory perhaps too confidently, his assumption is strongly supported by probability given the current vote count. Prior to post 77 and MrZepher's assertion that both of the mafioso are currently voting for either myself or MrZepher, both of us had three votes each. This means that 2/3, a majority of this game's players, were presently on one of our wagons. Given the small amount of relevant discussion thus far, I think that these odds do bring us to the conclusion that, although it can not be said with certainty,
it is highly likely that at this moment at least one, if not both, mafioso are voting for either me or MrZepher
.

You claim that you've explained why this logic is improper, that votes on day 1 mean nothing, and you've used two examples from completed games with name colours indicating whether the voter was town or mafia. You have specifically chosen two games in which you found that the situation was as you claimed. This is confirmation bias; you only chose those two games because they confirmed your case against MrZepher. I disagree with this entirely, and will provide two games during which the conditions were the same or similar to those of our current game, yet both mafioso were voting for one of the L-2s. This provides just as much proof to contradict your position as you have provided to support it.

From Newbie 1312, Day 1 Votes Prior to Lynch:

Deadlyotaku - 3 -
Thor665
, Machiavellismx,
Jackmm1301

Jackmm1301
- 3 - kushm4sta, Bootybandit, Flabawoogl
Cheery Dog - 1 - Xyria
kushm4sta - 1 - Cheery Dog

From Newbie 1315, Day 1 Votes Prior to Lynch:

Spawnisen - 3 (
kwll
, awestfie, Superdeclan, Bitmap)

kwll
- 3 (Spawnisen,
Nekoko
, Ser Arthur Daye)
Superdeclan - 2 (MP5, Serrapaladin)

Funny cause we are not that far into the game, this is stuff for VCA NOT FOR ANALYSING RVS WAGONS.

That is why i didn't use the VC's that you are so nice try but that is a bad link to this game.

On Jason's Accusation of Forgetful Voting:

Granted, it would be easier for someone who is "faking it" to forget who they currently think is scum. However, we are currently on page 4 of this game, and I don't think that any of us really have grounds to find someone else scummy, as we've only very recently started any sort of serious discussion.

I disagree with your assertion that MrZepher is scum because he forgot to mention his vote in a half-hearted vote count.

I find no reason to conclude that MrZepher is any more suspicious than I believed prior to your highly accusatory post. In fact, I'm feeling a little more suspicious of you, JasonWazza. Why do you feel the need to press so hard on such trivial issues?

I do believe that forgeting a vote change from 2 hours prior, is indeed scummy, Also the fact that he had recently be called out for said calling himself town.

I defend MrZepher not for his good, but for the good of the town. At this time, I truly do not find MrZepher suspicious, and believe that lynching him would provide breathing room for the mafia. Furthermore, I find it mostly unlikely that JasonWazza is mafia as well; in the case of MrZepher's lynching, if he flips scum, Jason would not have outed his comrade. If MrZepher is lynched and flips town, JasonWazza would have to be a very brazen mafioso in order to call out town in such a heartened manner on day 1. I feel that your logic is flawed, JasonWazza, but not that you are acting with bad intentions.

for the good of the town sounds like it's from prior knowledge.

And honestly i'm starting to think that you may be scum with him, but i will leave that for later

P-Edit: L-1 isn't bad as long as all of town realizes it.

Captain Ribbit · Post Post #97 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:54 pm

JasonWazza, I don't understand why you're taking such a personal approach to discussion.

Why does the distinction between "being silly, but not really" and saying "wasn't being entirely serious" feel liike a major difference?

Ah, I feel silly for not checking your current vote in reference to post 64. I stand corrected, and grant that MrZepher was in fact saying that he was town, but don't believe that this warrants enough suspicion to vote for him. Again, I feel like you may be taking this game a little too personally.

The two games to which I referred were both in RVS at the time of the posted vote counts. When I wrote that the two vote counts in question were taken prior to lynch, I didn't claim that they were immediately prior, only that they came before. It is completely accurate to compare the RVS votes from those two games to our own, given the context. Our game is moving out of RVS, just as those two games were at the time.

Regardless of whether or not MrZepher forgetting his vote is scummy or not, which I do not believe it is, it has no bearings on the conclusion of his argument. His vote, and even mine, were irrelevant to his point in post 79, comparing the amount of votes on both of our wagons to the votes contrary to our wagons; there were three votes not included in the two wagons, and since neither of us were voting for each other, it stands to reason that this would be accepted without mention. This aspect of your case is based on extraneous details that don't contribute at all to finding scum.

"For the good of the town" implies prior knowledge? How so? I feel that your arguments against MrZepher are not sufficient enough to vote him. I believe for the time being that he is town, so would it not be for the sake of the town for me to check and balance your claims against him, to at least ensure that we do not rush to lynch?

Think what you wish. I am arguing for the sake of a logical conclusion.

You have brought four claims against MrZepher, and as I have asked you to lay bare all of your reasoning for believing that he is suspicious, I assume that you have only these four arguments. You have conceded one of them, and so we have three. I have shown that it is fair based on the principals of probability to presume that at least one mafioso is currently voting on one wagon or the other, and so now we have two. I am of the opinion that MrZepher forgetting to mention his own vote can not be rightfully used as evidence against him, and so, in my mind, we have one, which I concede does seem suspicious.

Therefore, I presently see that only one of your arguments, that of his town claim, stands logically. Even if he seems scummier for the reasons of this claim, I do not believe that it is enough to lynch, regardless of the fact that I do not find his town claim to be as suspicious as it appears you do.

What do you think of all of the other players, JasonWazza? It's obvious that you agree that MrZepher should in fact be placed at L-1 currently, although it appears that Mr E Roll does not. Mr E Roll, why did you remove your vote if, as Jason says, L-1 status is not a bad thing?

Mr E Roll · Post Post #98 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:06 pm

Captain seems like you are pretty unimpressed with Jason’s case against MrZ. Jason has based his case on what MrZ has done.

I’ll do the reverse.

↑ MrZepher wrote:
Two votes back to back on Captain Ribbit say either Xtian or Cybertronix are scum.

Calls Xtian or Cybertronix scum but fails to move his vote.

↑ MrZepher wrote:
I personally don't like RVS to go on for too long

This post is over twenty-four hours after he identifies Xtian or Cyber as scum yet he hasn’t moved his vote nor does he at this time.

↑ MrZepher wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: Reham008

Finally moves his vote but it’s not to either of the people he’s identified as scum and he fails to explain his vote.

↑ MrZepher wrote:The fact that Jason is voting me without having created an open environment for discussion, or having created the opportunity to get a feel for the different playstyles present in the game seems like pretty bad play considering the IC status.

Cites Jason as having bad play because he hasn’t created an open environment for discussion . But he failed to explain his vote on reham until questioned and then the explanation really doesn’t lead to any discussion

↑ MrZepher wrote:My vote on Reham was based on a bad and potentially scum motivated post.

What was bad about the post? What was the scum motivation in said post?

In short I’m concerned about MrZ’s failure to vote his strongest suspect and his admittedly defensive discussions. I’m also concerned by how he seems to be concerned about how town will view his votes as demonstrated by his unwillingness to put down an OMGUS vote. And finally by his assertion that it is a fact that both scum are on the bandwagons. You argue that it is probable that at least one scum is on a bandwagon he insists that both definitely are.

I appreciate your defense of MrZ it’s good to keep an open mind but I would have liked it better if you could have put forth an alternate suspect.

↑ Captain Ribbit wrote:What do you think of all of the other players, JasonWazza? It's obvious that you agree that MrZepher should in fact be placed at L-1 currently, although it appears that Mr E Roll does not. Mr E Roll, why did you remove your vote if, as Jason says, L-1 status is not a bad thing?

I removed my vote because I don’t want to see a hammer. We have loads of time left in the day why risk having the day end abruptly because somebody has an itchy trigger finger? I don’t believe having my vote on MrZ would add anymore pressure since I am making it perfectly clear that he is still my strongest scum read and the only reason I’ve taken my vote off of him is to prevent a fast hammer.

Captain Ribbit · Post Post #99 (ISO) » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:52 pm

Mr E Roll, thanks for your input. I can agree that all of these aspects adds up to a pretty scummy look for MrZepher, and I'm glad that you've brought it to my attention. After reading your post, I would like to hear more from MrZepher about his motivation for voting reham instead of Xtian or Cybertronix. The vote seems shortsighted to me.

I didn't put forth any alternate claims because, in all honesty, I haven't observed much that I find to be suspicious. At the moment, I'm awaiting more posts from BrightEyedFish. BrightEyedFish, you seem to pop in only to make swift agreements, vote or change your vote based on those agreements, and then quickly disappear again. I hope that we can hear more from you in the future.

I don't feel comfortable placing my vote without a more detailed response from MrZepher, and hopefully some discussion from everyone else as well, especially Cybertronix and Xtian.