/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[N]

And seeing as I'm burning bridges with Tierce, I may as well say that the main reason I don't want to claim is because she's trying to force me to.

This is great too, considering that you were online after the claim request, that I hadn't pushed you for it yet, and that you didn't claim

then

, despite having ample opportunity to.

I'm not sure what you mean. I wasn't here until about the same time as you made that post accusing me of what-the-fuck-ever and I got all contrary.

[Vi]

I thought I needed to flip the Looks Town switch.

I could gather this much, but why?

The point of :moveslikedutchie: is to be invisible; by that point I saw that I wasn't.

I also give up on things too easily, probably. :/

[N]

...N explicitly says he's attempting to play differently than his past style, and your conclusion is that he's playing like he did in the past? And the "not saying why" is really shady.

Many people have said this before. How is someone calling him town the first time you pick up on this?

I just want on this up: I didn't suddenly decide to change how I played in this game; I've been trying to mix things up for a few games now, with mixed results.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought I needed to flip the Looks Town switch.

I could gather this much, but why?

The point of :moveslikedutchie: is to be invisible; by that point I saw that I wasn't.

I also give up on things too easily, probably. :/

This makes sense.

[N]

The biggest thing about Empire is how different he's playing here compared to other games I've been in/read. I've never seen him post so many one-liners. I just had a quick look though his topics, and the only scum game I noticed was Micro 42, where he was playing as an alt.
Subject: Micro 42: Masquerade Ball (Party's Over)

Jesus fucking christ

VOTE: Red Mask

Subject: Micro 42: Masquerade Ball (Party's Over)

Good lord, this game. Would really love to hear from Orange, too.

(PS: more votes on Red.)

Tierce is town and this is non-negotiable.

More N votes.

I know that and I never said it was. You asked me how I felt about Vi's vote, and I feel that it is sheeping.

Yeah, ok.

More votes on this guy, please and thanks.

VOTE: CTD

Benmage and Wicked are probably town. Tierce is driving me crazy, but that's okay. I'd rather lynch Empire at this stage, but I know that's not going to happen.

And Nacho is still actually scum.

(You should self-vote. Alternatively, commit to the bus on penguin.)

[Nachomamma8]

First of all, some of the paranoid bits against Benmage being more "protown" as scum is stupid and bullshit, but I like his response. He played around a bit promoting paranoia of his amazing scum game, but took careful means to shut down that angle and pointed out that he could roll as town just like he could roll as scum. The response to Vi avoiding his reach-out in post in #186 is genuine as hell and pretty would be my response to something like that happening, so that's a strong point for Benmage being town. He's also gone hard after not-easy targets (Empire early, Vi, Tierce), which, considering the wagon setup right now, reassures me a bit although scumBenmage could probably get away with attacking those targets in a way that no one else could.

CES seems fine so far although the penguin-N-Vi scumteam doesn't really feel like something that's anywhere close to valid to me, but that's fine for now. The exchanges with Vi (with Vi's response being "oh, CES isn't trolling right now!") feel doubleplusgood to me, so he's a townread for me at the moment.

As far as CTD goes, I really don't like how his votes seem to be the last thing he focuses on. Given his concern for forming strong wagons, he should be willing to put himself behind the N wagon, but it feels more like a policy lynch than an actual "strong wagon". His attack on Johhog makes me a bit uneasy, considering it's a chainsaw of the CES, who is reading him as strong town. His positions also feel fairly safe (I want a strong D1 wagon, that's why I'm going after an easy target, you're tunneling too hard for me to deal with you anymore, so that's why I'm not going to respond to you anymore), but the way that he responds to me as if he can't believe that I'm finding N as town read genuine, although the AtE at the end of the post (if I get apathy lynched again, I'm going to freak!) is stupid and is something I do off-site to get the most mileage out of stupid mislynches as scum. His reads outside of this are not so bad so I would like to see how he plays when he's not pushing a utility lynch, but still leaning scum for now.

I like DV's play so far, although I expect I'll have a more solid read on him after he posts his reads. I like his N read although that's probably biased from us having the same thought process, and I like the paranoid response to Empire/Tierce attacking him for RVS. I don't like later jump off N, but it comes at a time that doesn't really serve a purpose as scum unless N is scum and he's trying to distance, which I seriously doubt since he's still putting penguin as scum higher than N and he's handing the cred for the change in his read to Empire pretty easily.

A lot of Empire's play is really fucking convenient for scum which means that I'm going to keep a close watch on him despite this being a far cry from what his scumgame looked like in the Masquerade game and Rarefaction, which I glanced through but didn't read intensively because it's late as fuck. There's also the strong townreads from Tierce & Tammy, who make him uncomfortable and can catch him when he is off his scumgame, but probably won't when he breaks through the wall. Currently, he's pushing on someone who fooled him before and also someone who Tierce is pushing mightily hard, scum flips give more cred and townflips won't really hurt him that badly. Tierce and Tammy are both blatantly strong townreads for him, and CES is in the unreadable slot, as per the usual. Don't really think that he's scum with Vi thanks to Vi subtly discrediting him with the "Activity Overview" comment.

Johhog voting penguin because he doesn't want "lurking to be rewarding" is bullshit at its best, and him missing DV stating that he played with CTD before is actually horrible in retrospect. Note that in post #59 he states that he could vote for DV and in post #60 DV says that he has played with CTD before pretty clearly. Johhog missing that pretty much immediately shows that he didn't bother reading the thread after the setup of DV as his next vote. Him also withholding his DV reasoning until AFTER penguin posted seemed off to me; he's claiming that lurking takes away all of the fun, but he uses a lurker's absence as an excuse to fluff and post shit for as long as possible. There's all of the crap reasoning of "you feel different, scum." and "you feel different, town.", not to mention the "N being town, could vote penguin" read to "oh, penguin is just a tiny bit scummier than N" after being questioned by CTD to make him a slam-dunk sort of scumread at this point. AND THE PROMISE TO META TIERCE THAT NEVER FELL THROUGH.

Konowa's interactions with Tierce are townish, particularly the whole "I know how I am perceived, and so I exploited that to strengthen a read on someone" bit which is just genuine, just creative enough for it to be a hard-to-fake reason. I also like how his effort-post responses only come after he finds the validity of something: see "oh, i see where you're finding a problem with that, Empire" (#487). He hasn't posted enough for me to get a good read on him, but he's not in the purge area right now.

I hate how much Llamarble "towninating" has become such a point of discussion in reading him. The pressure to "towninate" early is more pressure on someone that allows them to actually "towninate" and I feel play suffers when you're expected to do something amazing and fantastic right the fuck out of the gate. I understand his frustration based on this, I like the promise that he's "getting closer", and the quick bounce from penguin-CTD-penguin felt genuine. My problem is that the activate: towninate in #194 was pretty underwhelming and seemed like an attempt to towninate early that fell flat on its head, and I don't like his recent backtracking on N thanks to the status of the people pushing on him, but #524 doesn't seem like a scum post at all if Llama still rereads whenever he says he does. There's something about him posting the results of two rereads in one go "since he was prodded", and switching the read on CTD based on something that he came up a little while earlier and let sit for a little while. It's transparent to the point that it makes me think that he might be faking it in an overboard "look at my thought process it is so town" sort of way, but this doesn't necessarily make sense with him continually saying that he isn't towninating, since it makes people disregard his now posts a little and instead focus on things he's making later. So town.

I had an earlier townread on penguin_alien, but it's not really holding up now. I don't really like how she pushed a scumread on N for claiming to change up his style and not even noticing that no, he wasn't really succumbing to people's demand, and no, he wasn't even being a little bit reasonable. And if we want to talk about "having trouble faking reasons" meta, penguin's fitting pretty fucking cleanly into that sort of meta. She's usually very thorough as both alignments and ends up posting walls like candy and very rarely succumbs to non-walls, but her latest posting amounts to nothing more than "hi, let's lynch N!". It doesn't feel like she's adding anything new to the thread, and her tendency as scum to attack easy targets aligns with her not finding much to attack here. There's also the problem of her finding N's scum read on me serious, considering the reasoning he's given so far is "Nacho is

always

scum", which seems obviously incorrect to me and came before #504. So, she's actually a better lynch than I thought she was!

Shadoweh seems pretty fucking town so far to me. Her first couple of posts made me uncomfortable, but I found her push on Empire for being less-than-confident about reading people this game genuine, I dig the "everyone is ignoring me" vibe in #200, I like the way she treats the Vi/Tierce interaction, and the CTD attack was sexy and the way he handled her afterwards and her reaction look pretty good for her. She feels like she is trying to get a nice towncrew together and keeping people up on their shit without actually trying to squirm her way inside, which is pretty cool. There's also a small thing in her reference to ADWD that I liked (she gets lazy when the people she likes dies/when people stop watching her), which is a genuine thing to say as town, but one of those things that make people who have not played with her more paranoid of her when she survives past the people she buddies up to, and the people she is buddying up to become more paranoid even if they like her posting. Plus #431 is probably the best post of the game because it's hilarious.

I liked that Tammy defended herself against overreacting, although many players in the game consider that to be typical town tammy. I liked her double-downing extra sure to reassure me that her arrogance wasn't misplaced. The "what the fuck, I already towninated?" bit against Empire was genuine as hell and ballsy and unecessary as scum and works well with empire-scum possibility. The "I'm uncomfortable reading you, gonna read you anyways" is also shutting down an avenue she could've easily taken as scum for no reason, the YOU AIN'T GOT SHIT AGAINST ME is strong as fuck and a challenge to make as scum and suddenly makes it seem strange that Empire didn't pick that up later. The "I want to vote for her, but it feels unfair" is not something I think scum would use to distance from a scumbuddy or a town lynch. There's a lot of gut in here and not as much reasoning, but the fact that doing an ISO on her strengthened an Empire scumread and didn't really produce anything that stands out for her being scum makes her look pretty good.

Tierce looks town. The attack on Konowa mid-voting DV is the puzzle piece that the Johhog town puzzle was missing, the whole "I've seen scumDV fight against me lynching the fuck out of him before" was pretty good, and the constant, constant, constant aggression is something that I've often wanted to emulate as scum but never really managed to get the hang of before. The flagrant refusal to read Vi is also not something I think Tierce would want to flaunt about as scum since it's something that's going to draw her a lot of unnecessary attention, and the whole push of N is sticking her neck too far out for not a good enough lynch. I don't see why she would push a mislynch this hard, and I don't see why she would bus N this hard, considering it won't be enough in the way of cred for her to avoid all of the townies in this game that can read her. In short, I feel what Tierce said in #381 is fairly accurate and that her breakthrough game wouldn't be played like this.

Vi's play is interesting and I have called him a her for so long that I refuse to use the proper(?) pronoun ever, but I will say that she has recently thrown me for a bit of a loop. Play in regards to CES was making sense for a scumVi, with subtle discrediting here and there, small potshots that never really mattered, but her cryptic response to me is something that I didn't really expect and is something that I might be creating town motivation for, but also something that's going to get tabled for tomorrow because tomorrow will bring good things on that front based on who dies.

Wicked's play so far has been a big bag of "eh". There's a lot of promises, "sorry I'm not playing good enough", "I'm so busy" that I would expect from scum returning to a playerlist like this. I mean, every post he makes comes with the caveat of "I don't know enough people here, I'm behind" and it wears me down. Post #484 doesn't make sense for Wicked if he was lost, and letting a lot of those reads drop to the wayside doesn't make sense, and his reasoning for the townreads he has are shit. Not arguing with Vi-scum cases and instead pulling the whole "oh, what's the chance Vi gets lynched today?" card is bad, the "I'm unvoting but he's STILL MY TOP SUSPECT" is framed like a defense as opposed to "I'm unvoting because NO ONE WILL LYNCH HIM (shadoweh)", the "every vote is opportunistic" attack on penguin is stupid considering she's made 2 votes so far, and wanting his townread N to claim as opposed to the person he's trying to lynch penguin to claim is similarly bad. So there's a whole lot of and not a lot of .

[Nachomamma8]

so...
wicked-empire-johhog is my favorite call, I think
with maybe scums in penguin, CTD, Vi

[Faraday]

Day 1, Votecount 29

penguin_alien (7) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh, Llamarble, Wickedestjr, Nachomamma8, Vi

N (7) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum

CrashTextDummie (2) - N, Johhog

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

• With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 5th of March at 00:38am GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-04 20:30:28)
  
• Tierce is V/la

[Tierce]

Empire is Town, Nacho. He's being too cocksure about several things to do it as scum. Go read his two games as scum (one of them is alted as Black Mask). We have similarish views about being scum and how boring it is, and I don't think he'd feel like he could be that arrogant as scum with this playerlist. The Townreads on me and Tammy are easy, yes, but we are also the people he has played with the most, he has hydra'd with both of us, and we are fairly easy to read for him. When we hydra, our reads tend to match up pretty well, and what is more--in this game, I saw him reach similar conclusions to me

from his own sources

. That bodes quite well.


The problem with N is that, regardless of what you said about him, his play is extremely convenient for scum. He's mostly avoiding connections with potential buddies (though I'll love it if he flips scum, because his interaction with me is clearly not bussing), not providing scumhunting, either proactive or reactive, and he's using a vague excuse of meta (which is ALL he has done so far) to explain really horrible play. This is not me just going in :justice: mode about it, it's that his play fits much more scum being bitter at drawing scum with this playerlist and trying to coast than providing

anything

. He's yet to answer any kind of questions regarding reasoning for his reads, and what he has on Empire is "he's just posting one-liners", which is 1) blatantly not true, 2) something Empire did in Black Flag Nightless, 3) something he's doing on occasion because he has been busy with RL. N's pushes feel weak, unsubstantiated, and I know he's capable of far better as Town without the aggression he says gets him mislynched.

Also of note that N lied here:

And seeing as I'm burning bridges with Tierce, I may as well say that the main reason I don't want to claim is because she's trying to force me to.

This is great too, considering that you were online after the claim request, that I hadn't pushed you for it yet, and that you didn't claim

then

, despite having ample opportunity to.

I'm not sure what you mean. I wasn't here until about the same time as you made that post accusing me of what-the-fuck-ever and I got all contrary.

He was most definitely online several hours before I made said post.

People are still asking him to claim, and he refuses to play to a Town wincon. If anything, this is scum fearmongering--refusing to claim causes people to be afraid to lynch him, which causes wagons to shift off. Truth be told, that refusal to claim is more like a vanilla claim than anything else, IMO.


Incidentally, I had a dream that Regfan was in this game, was obvTown, and that N flipped scum. It was sad to wake up to the present condition again.


I would totally move these two wagons onto Johhog, Mr. Look At Me Avoiding Uncomfortable Questions:

So you can't give concrete examples of me asking pseudo-scumhunting questions. Making shit up confirmed.

And of course you could be persuaded to vote penguin-alien at deadline. Ignoring a wagon all day long and then going "oh well, deadline-lynch" is shady as fuck. Why do you have a town-read on N?

Can't say I'm interested in you. If other people want me to answer your questions, then that's OK. But it's wasted time to give in to your laughable threats.

/} Stop dodging and answer him. Why is N Town?

[Empire]

Ok so I managed to get some time in between classes to draft this up. I'm in a bit of a hurry so sorry if this comes out frazzled.

~~~

@N:

That has to be the most ridiculous assessment of my meta I have ever seen. You know damn well I'm capable of posting multiple one-liners as town (see: Black Flag - all the posts by me are signed so you can't miss them; or Mafiastuck - all my posts are the ones that have proper grammar/punctuation) and I love cheerleading wagons on scumreads I'm confident about.

~~~

@Nacho:

I get where you're coming from on me because I haven't really given much in the way of concrete stances this game (which is why I agreed with Johhog that I was playing somewhat differently from Castle Zar) -- it's no secret at this point that the game is really really fucking hard. But my confidence has been growing since I've been slowly developing a list of strong townreads. I didn't address or pursue the Tammy thing further because her response to me was town as fuck (see her placement in my second reads list) and I didn't really feel like talking about it much + I was more interested in bouncing ideas off of her.

And just to get this out there now about my meta since it's a topic that's come up with some frequency -- it's not a secret that I hate playing scum and that drawing scum in a mafia game is one of the most demoralizing things for me. The only enjoyment I get from this game is from the sheer happiness I get from solving the game and getting it right. I don't give anywhere near of a shit about the game when I'm scum which is why Tierce et. al. have such strong townreads on me. And as pathetic as this is going to sound (and no I don't give a shit if any of you think this sounds fake, fuck off), I literally think about this game in particular all the time. I literally cannot go through a moment of the day alone where this game does not creep into my thoughts somehow. And it's precisely because this game is so hard that I'm so constantly drawn to it -- I

want

to figure it out so badly. The reason I'm latching on to the N/penguin scumreads is because those are the only two I actually feel confident about and I think that duo works interaction-wise. So yeah, I'm town because I'm a loser and I care way too fucking much about this game to be scum.

I think your N townread is naive. I urge you to read NY 160 - Regfan and I misread N hard there because we applied way too low of a standard for him so a lot of the fake noob tells like him asking what an encryptor was and the bare minimum effort he gave seemed obvtown. He's doing a lot of the same shit here and he's being given way too much of a free pass for it. I've read games where he's town and he's frankly capable of far more proactive scumhunting than he has been in here and his scum games. The playstyle shift doesn't seem like a genuine excuse for me because, well, he's not really been doing a great job of it -- I mean, the guy literally refused to claim at L-1 simply to spite another player.

~~~

Anyway I absolutely need to get this off my chest before the thread closes. I don't know if I'm going to survive the night here despite the high quality roster so I absolutely need to make sure this gets said.

Please please please for the love of god, do not lynch the following people. Do not even so much as vote them:

Tierce
Benmage
DV
Tammy
Nacho

These five names are my strongest townreads and should not be up for lynching ever. As arrogant as this will sound, I think I know Tierce and Tammy better than literally anyone else on the site and I'm very confident both are town here. I used to be awful at reading DV but the meta I've got on him has been proving reliable -- I read him as town correctly in Mafiastuck/Sherlock and as scum in Castle Zar. I've read games Benmage has been in and I think there's a very significant difference in his town/scum playstyles and he's very much playing to his town meta here. Nacho's big reads wall is extremely town, I wasn't sure on him before because he seemed to just ask a lot of questions and I wasn't sure where he was going with it all but his conclusions and the way he expresses them in #705 is super genuine.

I won't be around most likely to switch to penguin if needed but consider this post an official endorsement of the wagon. Good luck.

[Tierce]

Go read his two games as scum (one of them is alted as Black Mask).

You seem to have done so. Never mind that. >.>

[Tierce]

Ok so I managed to get some time in between classes to draft this up.

I'm in a bit of a hurry so sorry if this comes out frazzled.

Another thing. Empire wouldn't do

this

as scum, Nacho. He feels incredibly lazy when playing scum, and in this game he continues paying attention and trying to post whenever possible, instead of pushing this game to the bottom of the pile of things to do.

[penguin_alien]

Ninja'd by Tierce and Empire; posting this anyways; will check new posts out after.

Claim and reads follow in the interest of not running into deadline:

Claim: VT

Reads:

Benmage--Town for spontaneity of posts. Pretty certain here; moving on.

Cogito Ergo Sum--Not wild about him basing a lot of his reasoning off the idea that N, Vi, and I are a scum team, as I know that to be inaccurate. If he'd continued to push me, I'd find it more likely that he's a misguided townie; that he moved on to N and Vi and claims that I confirmed Vi was bussing N (really?) makes it feel like he has an excuse to push me and Vi if scumbuddy N gets run up. His avoiding what I consider to be a bad wagon with CrashTextDummie puts him slightly leaning town depending on how firmly he holds to his pet scum team theory.

CrashTextDummie--I'll quote myself from earlier as my read here hasn't changed:

[CrashTextDummie's] question [to DeasVail] was pretty early on, and his choice to engage seems less scummy than the alternatives. And given that there seems to be an underlying sentiment that some targets aren't going to be lynched until later in the game, I don't think he's alone in focusing on some people while disregarding others. In reading through his ISO, he actually seems more willing to address a decent swath of people in his queries and calls out some targets that aren't high on anyone's list (Johhog springs to mind).

Town read

DeasVail--Bugs me that he asked me about my reaction to his page one post, then said I'd thought about it too much. I still think that if he wanted it to be worth the confusion, he should have pursued it further, but then I don't have experience with making such moves myself, so it's more a point of interest by this time. Very slight townread, more for the first half of the day than the second.

Empire--Another player who seems to engage with most of the playing field. Not getting anything scummy from him, including his early lynch pool. Leans town.

Johhog--I have no problem with his pressure vote in the early part of the day; it's how I'd react to someone dropping off the radar. Later on, his push on CrashTextDummie for what boils down to 'not being scummy' in this post starts getting weird to me. His votes feel convenient, in that he jumps on my early wagon for fun, then quickly votes and unvotes DeasVail, having changed his mind based on knowing that DeasVail has been aware of CTD's propensity to ask for mass-claims. Then he sees nowhere to put his vote for a decent span of time until he arrives at CES, but once there fails to attempt to persuade anyone that he's correct. And now he's taking the least committed stance on me vs. N around. Scum read

Konowa--Kicked off a wagon in RVS, great. Jumped off of it really quickly, voted DeasVail with no attempt to persuade others of his scumminess, didn't put his vote anywhere for a while, then jumped back onto me despite having what I'd consider more substantial scum suspects in this post. Seeing as his reasoning for me seems to be that I changed my mind. Which townies never do, don't ya know. Scum read

Llamarble--I hate his reasoning that since he was a good town player in a previous game I should show hesitation at voting for him here. I felt that N's persistence in being opaque and intentionally not contributing trumped Llamarble's light reasoning on CrashTextDummie, but he remains scummy to me. His insistence that much of his reads stem from gut without a whole lot to back it up bothers me. It's one thing to feel something via gut, but something actually present has to trigger said read; it might take time to parse it out, but that doing so is not possible is a cop-out. Scum read

N--I still think he's scum. He's willing to try things, sure, but how is what he's doing here helpful to town? He committed to zero reads in the first part of the day, became defensive when called out on that without attempting to rectify the situation, and wrote it all off as a new play style. I see no town motivation here. Scum read

Nachomamma8--No quibbles with his stances. He's right that I haven't been walling like I normally do. Given that the Open 459 was the only game I've played as Mafia scum start-to-finish (SK game and replace-into-newbie-with-doc-and-JK-claimed were horses of a different color) I can't disagree that my fresh-scum meta involved tunneling. His reads are otherwise what I'd have expected to get from him over the course of the game if he hadn't been V/LA. Town read

Shadoweh--Despite the townie voting bloc suggestion at the start, her arguments generally put her in positions where she's invested in the game and the posting of others in a way that I wouldn't expect from scum. Leaning town

Tammy--Strong town read for spontaneity again.

Tierce--Mostly organic reasoning. The only parts of her ISO I don't like is where she talks about how hard the game is to follow, particularly since the rest of her postings belie this sentiment. Leaning town.

Vi--Can't read; further confused by the talk of him having a meta that indicates fluffiness is to be expected early on. Mostly like what serious thoughts are present. Leaning town

Wickedestjr--His early play this day phase felt town, but he's been slipping over to a scum read as things progress. I think him not wanting N lynched with the little hook of 'not saying why' and not being willing to follow up on that, yet telling people to vote for me

or N

reads like an unwillingness to take a stance. How does he define the distinction between being opportunistic and persuaded to change one's mind anyways? His early interest in Shadoweh as linked with CTD showed more of a willingness to stick his neck out that petered out. Leaning scum

Summary:

Town on Benmage, CTD, CES, DeasVail, Empire, Nachomamma8, Shadoweh, Tammy, Tierce, Vi

Scum on Johhog, Konowa, Llamarble, N, Wickedestjr

Obviously I have more scum reads than we are likely to have scum in the game. I'd rank them from strongest to weakest as Johhog > Konowa > N = Wickedestjr > Llamarble right now FWIW.

Happy to answer questions about any of this in the time remaining; I'll be in and out today.

[Tierce]

Tierce--Mostly organic reasoning. The only parts of her ISO I don't like is where she talks about how hard the game is to follow, particularly since the rest of her postings belie this sentiment. Leaning town.

Pardon? I didn't say it was

difficult

to follow, I said I was V/LA and didn't have the patience to. The game promises to be quite difficult due to the playerlist, but I have plenty of time to keep up.

@Faraday: My pretty V/LA banner is gone. Thanks!

[Empire]

Nacho, how familiar are you with Johhog's scum play?

[penguin_alien]

Gah. I need an hydra buddy or something. I feel like so much of this game is going WOOOOOSH over my head and that I don't know how to play alone anymore. I want to gripe about situations and get someone who reads the parts I skim and the possibility of bouncing ideas back and forth and I just can't.

Mostly this, plus a couple mentions of people you don't think you can read/can't read this early in the game. It's the only thing that stuck out in your ISO for me because the rest of it didn't match the quoted sentiment.

[Nachomamma8]

This is not me just going in :justice: mode about it, it's that his play fits much more scum being bitter at drawing scum with this playerlist

See, I don't really think that N would be bitter to draw scum at this playerlist; I think he would view it as a change to improve. Look at his commentary on Black Flag Nightless in his Wiki.

He's yet to answer any kind of questions regarding reasoning for his reads, and what he has on Empire is "he's just posting one-liners"

Last time I saw N making an inaccurate meta read, he was reading me as scum in a newbie game for posting too much, which was horribly, horribly wrong and easy to refute. I don't think N would push an inaccurate meta read as scum, but I do think N would push something like this as town.

I think your N townread is naive. I urge you to read NY 160 - Regfan and I misread N hard there because we applied way too low of a standard for him so a lot of the fake noob tells like him asking what an encryptor was and the bare minimum effort he gave seemed obvtown. He's doing a lot of the same shit here and he's being given way too much of a free pass for it. I've read games where he's town and he's frankly capable of far more proactive scumhunting than he has been in here and his scum games. The playstyle shift doesn't seem like a genuine excuse for me because, well, he's not really been doing a great job of it -- I mean, the guy literally refused to claim at L-1 simply to spite another player.

I've read that game and am looking at it again right now, but I see a distinct lack of opportunism and a willingness to attack strong players in this N that I don't see in the 160 N. The 160 N was definitely worried about how his posts were perceived (I just want to make it clear that was a prod dodge, that's why the post was short). I think the how many scum question was valid enough, and I don't think that N would do something so flagrantly anti-town as refuse to claim, especially on Day 1. If people were calling him town for being anti-town as fuck, then maybe, but when he's being singled out as scum for this type of behavior I feel like he would do something to counteract it.

Nacho, how familiar are you with Johhog's scum play?

Not familiar at all.

[Tierce]

Gah. I need an hydra buddy or something. I feel like so much of this game is going WOOOOOSH over my head and that I don't know how to play alone anymore. I want to gripe about situations and get someone who reads the parts I skim and the possibility of bouncing ideas back and forth and I just can't.

Mostly this, plus a couple mentions of people you don't think you can read/can't read this early in the game. It's the only thing that stuck out in your ISO for me because the rest of it didn't match the quoted sentiment.

Oh, no. That's not about having trouble keeping up--it's about thinking that this game is rather difficult to sort out. I had a ridiculously high Want To Play With result in this playerlist, but the resulting problem is that I'm quite used to being in an hydra when the playerlist is this good. I've been hydraing quite a bit recently, and one thing I find happens is that, once you find yourself in a Town game outside an hydra, you feel very alone--and that's how I was feeling at that point. I still have to gather my thoughts somewhat (which I never much manage to do on D1), but having Empire

and

Vi both in the game and not being able to reach out to either of them over AIM is really freaking weird, as I have hydra'd with both of them in multiple occasions. If I want to bounce ideas with Empire, I have to do in-thread, and I can't just tab over to him on AIM and laugh at some situation in the game to break the tension. It's a weird feeling, and the loneliness is exacerbated by this game being filled with people I like but can't fully trust in the context of the game.

About people I don't read this early, it's a self-protection mechanism, really. I know I tend to have tunnel vision on Townreads, and that means I want to be pretty damn sure of my Townreads as I get them--and see no need to slot some people there at this point, as well as knowing that other people will not be lynched on D1. I'm being pragmatical about it, as I'm scatterbrained enough without adding the tinfoil hat.

[Nachomamma8]

Penguin, you could do more to explain those Benmage, Empire, Tammy, Tierce, Vi townreads.

Cogito Ergo Sum--Not wild about him basing a lot of his reasoning off the idea that N, Vi, and I are a scum team, as I know that to be inaccurate. If he'd continued to push me, I'd find it more likely that he's a misguided townie; that he moved on to N and Vi and claims that I confirmed Vi was bussing N (really?) makes it feel like he has an excuse to push me and Vi if scumbuddy N gets run up. His avoiding what I consider to be a bad wagon with CrashTextDummie puts him slightly leaning town depending on how firmly he holds to his pet scum team theory.

Where are you getting the townread from?

DeasVail--Bugs me that he asked me about my reaction to his page one post, then said I'd thought about it too much. I still think that if he wanted it to be worth the confusion, he should have pursued it further, but then I don't have experience with making such moves myself, so it's more a point of interest by this time. Very slight townread, more for the first half of the day than the second.

Again, where does the townread come from?

[Tierce]

If people were calling him town for being anti-town as fuck, then maybe, but when he's being singled out as scum for this type of behavior I feel like he would do something to counteract it.

You are, and in NY160 he had the Regfan/Empire hydra calling him Town much because of that.

As for a chance to improve, I look at my own scum games as it on hindsight, but frankly, as they are ongoing, I just

hate everything

.

But etc. I'm not going to change your mind about him, and I don't think you'll change my read on him either, especially at this point. Sadly, I don't think we can or should muster the hordes for a Johhog lynch this late in the Day.

[Empire]

Nacho, can you do me a huge solid and check out Johhog's scum games please? I think your points against him make a lot of sense which is why he's been at the bottom of my townreads totem pole but his scum games make me think he'd be more willing to cooperate than he has here. I'd link them but I'm on my phone at the moment.

Tierce, you too. I want to get as much as I can out before the day ends.

[Tierce]

Is it me, or he hasn't had a scum game at least since

March

? Requires more digging, please hold..

[Nachomamma8]

also here, also having trouble finding johhog scum games

[Empire]

IIRC, he was factional scum in mykonian's Game of the Year.

The ones I found were all old newbies.

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
He was a mime in Game of the Year.
This is a non-newbie Johhog scum game, and although he's partnered with someone else, he makes most of the posts.