MINI 1423 Dark Souls: Prepare to die....YOU DIED

[Iecerint]

Why do you think he's scum again?

His behavior after the Peregrine wagon (e.g., shift to theory-reasons to lynch claimed VT on whom there is not a very compelling case) is something that I personally only do as scum.

That, and I'm kind of hurt that he decided not to be my friend, but that's the "biased" part I was referring to.

[Ms Marangal]

ok... so, I just realized the limited time I have to actually get a full read through so I would appreciate a summary of what has happened so far.


and from I have read so far, I would Laugh if Levi was mafia. I don't think he is, and the reasoning of why he's scummy I understand so far is pretty weak.

[PeregrineV]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious.

This says that town does not make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons. I disagree, as will anyone who has played for any length of time.

PV, how does what you're saying follow from what VP is saying? Explain your chain of logic there, please.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it boils down to VP saying that town doesn't try to stay alive by avoiding being lynched, only scum do.
I disagree. If I were the doc, for example (I'm not), I would want to avoid claiming as much as possible to also avoid the NK.

[PeregrineV]

ok... so, I just realized the limited time I have to actually get a full read through so I would appreciate a summary of what has happened so far.


and from I have read so far, I would Laugh if Levi was mafia. I don't think he is, and the reasoning of why he's scummy I understand so far is pretty weak.

Mostly normal day1 stuff, until my wagon shot to L-1.
After I claimed, some people unvoted.
You now have 4 votes because of your predecessor.
I have townreads on Iec, levi, Jason, rest and a weaker one on chkflip.
My biggest scumread is VP.

[Ms Marangal]

ok...

first thing, thanks

second thing

From what I can see, your VT Claim is the main thing that's gotten you off the hook, the specificity of it more so

but I'm VT, so if I claim, would that make the wagon Knock received Disappear as well?

I'm not following town mindset here, and other then Lurking I can't figure out what my two predecessors have done, nor can I find anything of use from either of them.

I'm still making my way through the game, though I don't like where this is headed. I also have a bad feeling about VP and with only three days left, I don't have the time to play with my usual "no voting strategy" so

Unvote
Vote: VP Baltar

[Ms Marangal]

Coincidentally, I don't think you are as scummy as everyone else thinks you are

[chkflip]

Fucking

thank you

. Moar votes like that and we'll actually lynch scum.

[PeregrineV]

Coincidentally, I don't think you are as scummy as everyone else thinks you are

Thanks?

[VP Baltar]

(e.g., shift to theory-reasons to lynch claimed VT on whom there is not a very compelling case)

My case is plenty compelling. Much more so than your reasons for voting me. Second, I never said we should lynch him BECAUSE of the VT claim. I said that was a really dumb reason to call him town, as fake claims can be (and likely are) in play.

[VP Baltar]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious.

This says that town does not make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons. I disagree, as will anyone who has played for any length of time.

PV, how does what you're saying follow from what VP is saying? Explain your chain of logic there, please.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it boils down to VP saying that town doesn't try to stay alive by avoiding being lynched, only scum do.
I disagree. If I were the doc, for example (I'm not), I would want to avoid claiming as much as possible to also avoid the NK.

That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying scum have a group of people working toward a united goal (getting the lynch off their members) and therefore are more effective at stalling/dismantling wagons than random townie functioning ostensibly on his/her own.

[VP Baltar]

ok...

first thing, thanks

second thing

From what I can see, your VT Claim is the main thing that's gotten you off the hook, the specificity of it more so

but I'm VT, so if I claim, would that make the wagon Knock received Disappear as well?

I'm not following town mindset here, and other then Lurking I can't figure out what my two predecessors have done, nor can I find anything of use from either of them.

I'm still making my way through the game, though I don't like where this is headed. I also have a bad feeling about VP and with only three days left, I don't have the time to play with my usual "no voting strategy" so

Unvote
Vote: VP Baltar

So you agree with me that it's a bad reason to unvote him. I don't understand "bad feelings." Please give specifics.

[PeregrineV]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious.

This says that town does not make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons. I disagree, as will anyone who has played for any length of time.

PV, how does what you're saying follow from what VP is saying? Explain your chain of logic there, please.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it boils down to VP saying that town doesn't try to stay alive by avoiding being lynched, only scum do.
I disagree. If I were the doc, for example (I'm not), I would want to avoid claiming as much as possible to also avoid the NK.

That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying scum have a group of people working toward a united goal (getting the lynch off their members) and therefore are more effective at stalling/dismantling wagons than random townie functioning ostensibly on his/her own.

You actually said that at the end of 471.

Conversely, when a townie is being run up, there aren't multiple players banding together to divert the wagon and its much easier to make happen.

And I responded:

This is really going to depend on a number of factors. If you have a strong enough read on a player you can "divert" the wagon in a few ways, depending on the strength of your town read. It may be strong enough to fight for someone's life, strong enough to vote someone else instead, or they may be null so you do nothing or vote them.
The opposite of this statement is that scum always attempt to divert scum wagons. So, if you think I'm scum,

who is diverting my wagon

?

While I recognize that this is a matter of opinion, then I'm asking for your further analysis based on your

OWN

opinion in this particular situation. (See bolded in 508).

[FourTrouble]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious.

This says that town does not make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons. I disagree, as will anyone who has played for any length of time.

PV, how does what you're saying follow from what VP is saying? Explain your chain of logic there, please.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it boils down to VP saying that town doesn't try to stay alive by avoiding being lynched, only scum do.
I disagree. If I were the doc, for example (I'm not), I would want to avoid claiming as much as possible to also avoid the NK.

VP is obviously not saying that town don't try to stay alive, and you're not really answering my question. I wanted to know exactly how you go from someone saying "scum try to stay alive" to saying that means "town don't try to stay alive." How did you make THAT leap specifically?

[FourTrouble]

For the record, I'm not convinced PV is scum but voting VP instead is the dumbest, most idiotic thing I've ever seen. The two cases against them can't even be compared: PV has effectively done no scumhunting, whereas VP has been at the forefront of discussion and everything he has said makes perfect sense from a town point of view. The votes on VP are retarded.

[PeregrineV]

Because scum make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons if they get too serious.

This says that town does not make a focused effort to dismantle their wagons. I disagree, as will anyone who has played for any length of time.

PV, how does what you're saying follow from what VP is saying? Explain your chain of logic there, please.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but it boils down to VP saying that town doesn't try to stay alive by avoiding being lynched, only scum do.
I disagree. If I were the doc, for example (I'm not), I would want to avoid claiming as much as possible to also avoid the NK.

VP is obviously not saying that town don't try to stay alive, and you're not really answering my question. I wanted to know exactly how you go from someone saying "scum try to stay alive" to saying that means "town don't try to stay alive." How did you make THAT leap specifically?

If I understand what your asking correctly, either VP is trying to make a specific point that "scum try to stay alive", in which case he is emphasizing that town does not, or he is merely stating the obvious. Since stating the obvious doesn't make sense, (ie Water is wet) then he is stating it to further his argument.

[FourTrouble]

PV, I don't think he ever said anywhere that town does not try to stay alive. The implication of his statement is that town have more difficulty staying alive than scum because scum have partners to defend them. The issue here comes back to the fact that mafia inherently have more information than town. You can't seriously have thought that VP was saying town don't try to stay alive... Explain again why you're voting for VP. Don't tell me it's because he has no reason to vote for you, that's pure OMGUS + VP obviously does have a reason to vote for -- you did no scumhunting all game until called out on it -- so you need something better than that.

[RestFermata]

Still around. Been busy trying to get my portfolio together, but I have no intentions of replacing out. I will read and post today, I promise.

[PeregrineV]

PV, I don't think he ever said anywhere that town does not try to stay alive. The implication of his statement is that town have more difficulty staying alive than scum because scum have partners to defend them. The issue here comes back to the fact that mafia inherently have more information than town. You can't seriously have thought that VP was saying town don't try to stay alive... Explain again why you're voting for VP. Don't tell me it's because he has no reason to vote for you, that's pure OMGUS + VP obviously does have a reason to vote for -- you did no scumhunting all game until called out on it -- so you need something better than that.

So, from a townBP mindset, everyone else was scumhunting, but I was not?
So, I'm scum, and VP voted for me. That's cool.
But, when I looked at the six votes on me, townBP immediately saw that as a scum move, because scum try to stay alive, but town do not.
When I claimed, townBP saw my VT claim as scum, or didn't care, or whatever. That's fine.
However, every post I make he tries to reinforce his view that I'm scum regardless of what I actually say and without responding to it. To me, that's tunneling. And I can't think of any town reason day1 to tunnel.

And to ask you, since I don't see it quite as clearly as you, how has BP been scumhunting? What scum has he located that he hasn't called scum through some "association" with me?

[Ms Marangal]

I don't think PV is scum, I don't want my vote to sit on a townie.

when I said I had a bad feeling, I was talking guts. I only skimmed through the 20 or so pages so I don't have a complete understanding as to whats going on, but it's good enough for me to make judgement.

[leviathan93]

Can I ask a question for all? Who are the major pushers for a VP lynch?

[Sotty7]

I'm old and empty handed, but I can repay you with knowledge and sorcery.
This place is melting my mind. The inactivity is repressive!

18th vote count of Day one

Ms Margangal: 4 (Nachomamma8, leviathan93, Iecerint, Empking)

PeregrineV: 3 (Debonair Danny DiPietro, VP Baltar, Human Destroyer)
VP Baltar: 3 (chkflip, PeregrineV, Ms Marangal)
Human Destroyer: 2 (FourTrouble, RestFermata)
Debonair Danny DiPietro: 1 (JasonT1981)

Not voting:

No one

With

13

players alive it takes

7

to lynch

DEADLINE:

(expired on 2013-03-07 21:00:00)

[RestFermata]

I do want to point out though that town often does state the obvious in order to build a foundation for their argument.

[VP Baltar]

who is diverting my wagon?

as I think I've clearly stated, I believe Iec has been and continues to make attempts to derail your wagon. He's played more than enough games to know that flavor is null in any well constructed game. He's also played enough to know that Sotty/Zach are not stupid players who are going to make a game that is breakable via flavor, therefore reinforcing the previous point.

chkflip is also derailing your wagon in a way, but I think he's just town who is quite easily influenced by scum and also is completely incapable of following logic when presented with it. I can't do anything about that other than ignore him at this point because I already tried to engage him with logical explanations (albeit aggressive ones, as I'm prone to do) and got no result.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Thanks?

I find it pretty funny that people don't find you scum as well.

And yeah it's really sad chkflip is being so stupid because he's really obviously town.

[VP Baltar]

But, when I looked at the six votes on me, townBP immediately saw that as a scum move, because scum try to stay alive, but town do not.

This never happened.