The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[Equinox]

Equinox, are you saying you find Zdenek potentially scummy? If so can you please link me a game with a scum aligned friendly neighbor, I could do with a source or two to see how scum friendly neighbors play and I can't find an example of it happening.

That's not what I said. I'm looking at Zdenek not because I'm suspicious of him -- actually I think he's town -- but because I'm interested in potential reasons for why he is alive, since I am also looking into potential reasons for why scum killed the people they did.

I'll take a look at the rest in a bit, working on something that's due in a couple of hours.

[Zdenek]

Because I was shitty yesterday.
Trying to rectify that by doing more than essentially turning Plessiezarus into a double voter.

[The Baltimore Sun]

Day 3, Votecount 15

ChannelDeliBird (2) - Benmage, camn

Equinox (4) - ChannelDelibird, BT, Nostredeus, Plessiezarus

BT (2) - kuribo, Deasvail

Not voting (5) :

Cerulean, JasonT1981, Zdenek, Equinox, Shaft

• With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 9th of March at 17:15pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-09 13:15:28)
  
• NO ONE is V/la

[Zdenek]

Bt is looking townier lately, but after he kept talking about how suspicious Sotty was, I'm a bit surprised he didn't mention it at all.

You expected an "oops, I was wrong" comment?
Those are pretty irrelevant.

If anything it looks kind of consistent with him not saying anything about his Camn read at the start of Day 2.

[Zdenek]

The only two he completely ignored were CDB and Kise. Willing to drop both of them as candidates for Police for now.

I disagree with this decision. You've just finished saying that you think Absta was genuinely having a hard time with the game, and both of these were slots that were somewhat inactive at times (Baby Spice more so), so it's quite possible that he simply didn't interact with them because they weren't posting.

[Equinox]

Hi, Nostredeus.

Please answer this ASAP:

I don't think you ever mentioned what information could have been gained from sottyrulez's flip. Now that you have it, what have you learned?

What sort of information would Kise's flip have provided at this point?

You've already touched on the second question by mentioning who you think would have been scum on Kise's wagon, but what I'm also looking for here is what led you to say in post 1819 that you wouldn't have been happy with Kise getting lynched over sottyrulez but would still gain "information" from it. What was your thought process at the time you had said these things?

Also, please answer this question:

Equinox (5) - ChannelDelibird, BT, Nostredeus, Plessiezarus, Shaft

Would you expect to find scum in this group? If so, how many and where based on your current knowledge of the game state?

Preferably today before I flip, please.

[Cerulean]

Vote: BT

[Zdenek]

There's another issue with Benmage that's probably worth pointing out. Earlier, he's voting Kuribo and thinks that he's scum, Kuribo self-votes and Benmage immediately unvotes saying that he's never seen scum do that. This reads more like a textbook response to an event than to something that he actually thought about as town. Benmage has played with Kuribo before, and I think that he'd have realized that Kuribo would self-vote as scum (personally, I think that there is little that I would put beyond Kuribo-scum). Moreover, Benmage has been in a game where he's seen scum day-vig another scum, so his lack of suspicion here is disconcerting.

[kuribo]

ben also at one point decided I was town, and then decided he wanted me lynched just because he can't read me for shit:

Stfu kuribo you are horrrendous I ought to just let you die.

Unfortunately, I have never seen scum selfvote. Never. (atleast from memory which I'm very confident with)

So fuck you.

Unvote vote BT

this over SAD.

I won't be able to play with you... especially with the wine you yourself present.

I'm hoping, (anddoubting) this exit is reminiscent of mine in Battlemages Bastard game.

unvote vote kuribo

Like, he literally says he's hoping I'm scum, but doubting it, but wants me to take rope just for his own peace of mind.

Personally though, I think it's more the fact he's lazy as shit. Kinda like Jason, who's been calling me scum for so long that he doesn't even remember why he thinks that, or bother commenting on anything within the last 30 pages other than a rough schedule of:

Friday - Sunday: VLA
Monday--- ugggh hungover, is kuribo dead yet?
Somewhere around wednesday--- can we lynch kuribo?
Friday - Sunday: VLA

[BT]

And I refuse to assume BT is town

You refuse to read my posts, too.

Really, the last time you attempted to write -something- that explains your read, my responses were a-ok and your reply was essentially "haha, not taking you seriously". As someone who has been ticked off by my insistence that you were scum on D2, it's even more annoying that you don't see the flip side here.

Like, he [benmage] literally says he's hoping I'm scum, but doubting it, but wants me to take rope just for his own peace of mind.

Entirely serious question -- is this the same way you feel about me? Not the doubting part, but are you doing this mainly for peace of mind? You make sure to show your overflowing conviction here and there but considering you're not doing much else it feels like you just want this over with. There's also the fact that you won't check if you're wrong lest the unthinkable happens and you change your mind.

By the way, question:

and plus, with the addition of a hydra to the neighborhood, i have more people to talk to than deas, who only seemed to pop his head in like every few days

Is he still doing this? Would you say he's more active in the QT than he is in the thread or the other way around?

~*~

Don't see this as any kind of town tell. Why wouldn't scum-BT want to discredit votes on his partners wagon? Especially a tracker?

Why

would

the scumteam want to discredit votes on an even-night tracker, especially considering it was Death Fodder absta? Your logic works backwards here.

Jason was a strong scum read for us day one, and he really hasn't done anything to read as town. The only thing that clears him is his gambit and the push that TGAH gave to him.

Hi there, I happen to be one of those people that made clear that there are absta-Jason connections that clear Jason, multiple times. I know you're being lazy with your scumread on me but this is ridiculous.

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.

You two are officially in time out and can not look at or speak to each other for one hour.

Note that I do think you're town -- the above is yet another quote to add to the collection, but I do think you're taking up kuribo's method of not paying attention to scumreads.

Camn - to answer your question: Nostredeus without a doubt, closely followed by Jason.

Why not DV here? Not that the other two aren't useless, but what's the thought process here?

~*~

Another question for DV when / if he replies to them:

DV -- if BT is your top scum-read, why are you not voting him? Why do you have to know how interested people would be in a BT lynch first?

Um, I don't know. I don't think a vote at this point particularly matters and I'm not really sure I want to go against the Equinox wagon, but I suppose I may as well.

... Why did you feel this way? Why would going "against the Equinox wagon" matter if you'd only be telling people to vote your other scumread? In fact, you made it clear that I'm the scumread you're more sold on, which makes this more baffling.

In lack of a reason for town to feel this way, this seems like scum not leaving behind evidence for when Equinox flips scum. (Even though DV's different way of pushing him and me is telling enough, scum usually give much more weight to their past -votes-. No vote means no worries.)

~*~

Other than the fact TGAH attacked Nost (which I'd been assuming meant Nost was probably not Police), I think Nost looks pretty awful.

Could you elaborate on this? CDB's "I don't see anything fake" is exactly the stance I took regarding Nost on D2 and it hasn't changed.

~*~

BT when you're scum are you the sort of player who pays attention to what his buddies are doing?

I never

ignore

my buddies, but I usually never do more than skim their posts. Which means I don't

completely

pay attention.

[ChannelDelibird]

But you know who is starting to annoy?
THESE GUYS-->

Not voting (5) :

Cerulean

, JasonT1981, Zdenek, Equinox, Shaft

With this, at least, I agree.

[kuribo]

And I refuse to assume BT is town

You refuse to read my posts, too.

Really, the last time you attempted to write -something- that explains your read, my responses were a-ok and your reply was essentially "haha, not taking you seriously". As someone who has been ticked off by my insistence that you were scum on D2, it's even more annoying that you don't see the flip side here.

Like, he [benmage] literally says he's hoping I'm scum, but doubting it, but wants me to take rope just for his own peace of mind.

Entirely serious question -- is this the same way you feel about me? Not the doubting part, but are you doing this mainly for peace of mind? You make sure to show your overflowing conviction here and there but considering you're not doing much else it feels like you just want this over with. There's also the fact that you won't check if you're wrong lest the unthinkable happens and you change your mind.

By the way, question:

and plus, with the addition of a hydra to the neighborhood, i have more people to talk to than deas, who only seemed to pop his head in like every few days

Is he still doing this? Would you say he's more active in the QT than he is in the thread or the other way around?

~*~

Your responses were not "a-ok," and in fact made you look scummier than before. The first case I made against you, even if it were flawed, you allowed Ben to make the defense for you. Your attempt to mollify me by calling me town for the most abject stupid fucking reasoning in all of Christiandom (HE GOT CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT DAY THE CLAIM WAS MADE, THEREFORE HE'S SOLID TOWN, MOVE ALONG PEOPLE) is obvious. And you've twice now gone so far as to say, in effect, "Hah, if you think I'm scum, prove it, bet you can't lolololol." Then in this post you essentially tell DV to stop poking you or you'll rethink your town read on him. I mean, do you not get how sleazy that is?

And speaking of DV, I've found his activity to be about equal.

No, I don't lynch people for "peace of mind." And I've already admitted several times when my initial reads of someone have been wrong. And regardless of what Ben said yesterday, I don't see you as an information lynch. I want your blood because you're scum.

[DeasVail]

Probably

V/LA for 3 days

. I will still post probably, but tonight is an example of me not posting properly when I otherwise would have.

[DeasVail]

The V/LA could be less as well.

[BT]

Your responses were not "a-ok," and in fact made you look scummier than before. The first case I made against you, even if it were flawed, you (1) allowed Ben to make the defense for you. (2) Your attempt to mollify me by calling me town for the most abject stupid fucking reasoning in all of Christiandom (HE GOT CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT DAY THE CLAIM WAS MADE, THEREFORE HE'S SOLID TOWN, MOVE ALONG PEOPLE) is obvious. (3) And you've twice now gone so far as to say, in effect, "Hah, if you think I'm scum, prove it, bet you can't lolololol." (4) Then in this post you essentially tell DV to stop poking you or you'll rethink your town read on him. I mean, do you not get how sleazy that is?

(1) benmage got there first -- feel free to check. IIRC I replied to things freely so it's not like I let other people defend myself.
(2) That's not the reason, plus there's nothing wrong with making a 180 like that.
(3) Poor interpretation. I was telling you to take a look because I felt like you weren't.
(4) Wrong -- what I do tell him is to post. And I don't have a town read on him. I don't see how you reached that conclusion at all.
A lot of this is just you subjectively interpreting my actions into whatever. This is an accurate presentation of what you're doing: "BT is scum, that's why <reasons>, that's why he's scum".

[kuribo]

You mean that I'm not simply taking your words at face value?

In a Mafia game?

How far would one get trusting everything everyone says implicitly?

[kuribo]

And regarding 3, I suppose that if I told you you just seem like scum that thinks he's caught for the wrong reason, it would violate our new trust everyone rule?

Seriously, look at your wagon. What do those three people have in common?

[Nostredeus]

Hi, Nostredeus.

Please answer this ASAP:

I don't think you ever mentioned what information could have been gained from sottyrulez's flip. Now that you have it, what have you learned?

What sort of information would Kise's flip have provided at this point?

You've already touched on the second question by mentioning who you think would have been scum on Kise's wagon, but what I'm also looking for here is what led you to say in post 1819 that you wouldn't have been happy with Kise getting lynched over sottyrulez but would still gain "information" from it. What was your thought process at the time you had said these things?

Also, please answer this question:

Equinox (5) - ChannelDelibird, BT, Nostredeus, Plessiezarus, Shaft

Would you expect to find scum in this group? If so, how many and where based on your current knowledge of the game state?

Preferably today before I flip, please.

Regarding the Kise flip: The information was simply to clarify a number of reads I had on people, for example I've already mentioned that it has solidified my read on you.

The scottyrulez flip: I'm on my phone so I can't get back to you asap unless you link me the post where I said it; that way I can find it on my phone.

IF you flip town I expect CDB or BT to be good places to look, also as I've already said town would probably look at me too. Given the fact that you wont flip town I'm not too worried about having to actually deal with this scenario though.

@ALL: If plezzie and kuribo are town, also given the flips, what is your interpretation of yesterday's wagons. This really isn't that complex.

[Plessiezarus]

Other than the fact TGAH attacked Nost (which I'd been assuming meant Nost was probably not Police), I think Nost looks pretty awful.

Could you elaborate on this? CDB's "I don't see anything fake" is exactly the stance I took regarding Nost on D2 and it hasn't changed.

Nost seems far more concerned with justifying his behaviour and his votes than he is with actually hunting for scum. He shows a serious lack of interest in changing his mind about his reads (he's been pushing the same "TML is suspicious because everyone is ignoring him!" line since Day 1, for instance). His posts are full of superficial "analysis" that's clearly only being used to justify conclusions he's already come to (like claiming the SAD wagon is bad because it's full of people "who don't make an effort to consider other cases", and yet town-reading everyone on the wagon except TML, even though TML obviously isn't one of those people). He seems happy to ignore or dismiss things when they don't let him reach a conclusion he likes (on day 2, he said he was "happy to say I think at least one of [Jason and sotty] are scum", but after sotty flipped town he hasn't looked at Jason again at all).

Combine that with the (totally unnecessary) white-knighting of Jason during day 2, and the fact that despite suggesting "scum is chilling out and watching town eat itself today" he was happy to sit on sotty (before "compromising" on SAD), instead of actually making an effort to get somebody he really thought was scum lynched ... I really don't see what people like in his posts, at all.

~ Pless

[Zdenek]

I've narrowed down the list of people who aren't currently town reads to Benmage, camn, Cerulean, DeasVail, and Nostredeus.

How did you come up with this list? What had you read?

[Plessiezarus]

The wagons yesterday were frankly very revealing

This is actually a prime example of the superficial analysis I was complaining about above. Based on this post I can tell you

who

Nost suspects, but I can't tell you

why

. Nost doesn't seem to have talked about camn much before, but I don't know what it is that makes him suspect her now. Both camn and TML were on several wagons yesterday -- is that suspicious? If scum do "one of two things", and one of those things is to tunnel on a single player while ignoring other cases, why doesn't your "analysis" lead you to suspect somebody like DV?

The Kuribo wagon was clearly just a reaction to the play style, there's nothing to see there.

Er. Really? You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that lots of people suspected kuribo's slot even before he replaced in? Are petapan's behaviour on day 1 and ActionDan's claim then angry replace out not relevant of all a sudden? Why?

ChannelDeliBird (5) - Plessiezarus, Zdenek, The Mini-Librarian, kuribo, camn

If there was scum on it it's clearly TML or camn.

Kise (6) - The Mini-Librarian, Cerulean, Ser Arthur Dayne, sottyrulez, Benmage, camn

Again, if there was scum on it it's probably TML or camn.

BT (7) - Channeldelibird, Kise, sottyrulez, kuribom Benmage, camn, Ser Arthur Dayne

So, again if there is scum on this wagon it's probably camn.

There's no sign of any actual analysis here. You've literally just quoted who was on the wagon and then concluded "so probably the people I have scum-reads on are scum here". Can you actually expand on any of this? Is there some logic I'm not seeing? What about any of these wagons is especially "revealing"?

Ser Arthur Dayne (9) - Deasvail, Plessiezarus, Zdenek, JasonT1981, The-Mini Librarian, Nostredeus, ChannelDeliBird, sottyrulez, camn

So, yeah, errrr, TML/camn for scum on this one too, more so TML. You might be noticing a trend in the way TML played yesterday (camn too but there's other stuff regarding TML that makes it a more productive slot to lynch).

Some reasoning might be nice? The only trend I'm noticing is that you keep quoting wagons and then saying "so TML and camn are probably scum", neatly skipping over all the actual analysis and reasoning one might reasonably expect to occur in the middle.

With regards to the stability thing 'for the longest' was a bad phrase to use tbh, what I was meaning is the core members stayed on regardless of alternative options for an extended period of time and even in situations where they were offered an out, 'so I'm gunna compromise swap to SAD' would have gone down fine, also the same logic -in reverse- applies to people who did swap from BT to SAD.

Which "core members" stayed on the SAD wagon for "an extended period of time"? What is your read on them?

(I have literally no idea what you're trying to say with the second half of this quote. Can you try rewriting everything from "even in situations where they were offered ..."? What does "the same logic in reverse" even mean?)

I'm saying in this case the way TML vote hopped multiple times is indicative of opportunistic motivations.

Why TML explicitly? Show some thought process beyond "I think TML is scum and so when I look at how he voted I think it's scummy".

(To put it another way, why is TML's hopping from CDB to Kise to SAD more suspicious than, say, Jason hopping from Kuribo to Kise to SAD?)

~ Pless

[Zdenek]

I've narrowed down the list of people who aren't currently town reads to Benmage, camn, Cerulean, DeasVail, and Nostredeus.

How did you come up with this list? What had you read?

Nevermind. I see you've answered that.

[Plessiezarus]

The only two he completely ignored were CDB and Kise. Willing to drop both of them as candidates for Police for now.

I disagree with this decision. You've just finished saying that you think Absta was genuinely having a hard time with the game, and both of these were slots that were somewhat inactive at times (Baby Spice more so), so it's quite possible that he simply didn't interact with them because they weren't posting.

Oh, yeah, it's possible that absta ignored one of his partners this game. I'm definitely not trying to say "scum!absta always acts in a certain way towards his partners and therefore the following people are cleared forever". But I do think it's worth focusing, at least for now, on people who make sense as partners to absta given the assumption he hadn't varied his meta.

I also don't think absta would have ignored any partners simply because they were inactive, even though I do think he was feeling somewhat overwhelmed. In one of the past scum games of his I linked to, he quotes and replies to a partner who only managed a handful of posts before replacing out on day 1. And I think people who are overwhelmed by the size or pace of the game are

more

likely to revert to their usual meta than otherwise.

~ Pless

[Equinox]

Regarding the Kise flip: The information was simply to clarify a number of reads I had on people, for example I've already mentioned that it has solidified my read on you.

Clarification of reads is generally what happens no matter who flips. You said it like Kise was special; was he? Also, as you'll see in the quote below, you said something similar for sottyrulez as an incentive for other people to vote them:

I literally think scum is chilling out and watching town eat itself today, it happens, I get that, but really we could at least lynch scotty and get a decent chunk of information out of it.

I guess we could continue dancing, except this is getting to be like pulling teeth, so I'll get to the point: Why are you being so vague? Even in your analysis post in post 2423, you say that the wagons were "very revealing," yet you're not very revealing about why it's so obvious that it's camn and The Mini-Librarian. You did the analysis, yet you're not showing your work at all. I thought that it might've been that you believed that their positions made it obvious (it wasn't), but your answers here tell me you

are

being vague. Why are you holding back on revealing your thought process?

In fact, when I asked you about who was scum on my wagon, you just threw out names without explaining why you believed the likely scum on my wagon to be BT and ChannelDelibird. Why BT, who was on NONE of the wagons you listed in post 2423? Why ChannelDelibird, on whom you said you had a town read in post 2239, and who was seen leading the BT wagon only to jump on Ser Arthur Dayne because of the deadline?

Actually, here, let's spice things up.

Vote: Nostredeus

Preview edit: Goddammit, you stole my thunder.

[Benmage]

ben also at one point decided I was town, and then decided he wanted me lynched just because he can't read me for shit:

Stfu kuribo you are horrrendous I ought to just let you die.

Unfortunately, I have never seen scum selfvote. Never. (atleast from memory which I'm very confident with)

So fuck you.

Unvote vote BT

this over SAD.

I won't be able to play with you... especially with the wine you yourself present.

I'm hoping, (anddoubting) this exit is reminiscent of mine in Battlemages Bastard game.

unvote vote kuribo

Like, he literally says he's hoping I'm scum, but doubting it, but wants me to take rope just for his own peace of mind.

^I have no issue with the above line.

But you miss in those quotes you telling me that you'd fully do what you did as scum.