Open 480 - C9++ Game Over!

[Cub Daigoro]

You've done his first 22 posts, and you think 12 of them are scummy?!? Why didn't you question him about any of these things in real time?

This just reeks of scum building a bullshit post hoc case to justify a terrible vote.

[Belisarius]

Why didn't you question him about any of these things in real time?

I want a crack at this after gm answers; I've a question for you at that time, too.

[Cheery Dog]

Oh, @Zai: I try to avoid going too in depth on reasoning unless nobody else sees what I am talking about. I don't want scums stealing my precious points.

How does this help?
UNVOTE: VOTE: goodmorning

[Cheery Dog]

[quote="In post 364,"Apozzle"] My post was obviously token activity to avoid a prod.

I am halfway through rereading everyone right now - I just wanted to point out an instance of how ac rolls.[/quote]
And that's therefore different from the lurking you wanted attacked for earlier?

If you're doing posts to dodge posts, what is the difference between back then and now, and why should only one have been gone after?

[Cub Daigoro]

Why didn't you question him about any of these things in real time?

I want a crack at this after gm answers; I've a question for you at that time, too.

Okay. In the meantime:

Beli, your answer will be in this post.

Did you get your answer?

[Cub Daigoro]

EBWOP:

BTW, I don't want the question "Why didn't you question him about any of these things in real time?" to sidetrack my main point, which is that GM found 12 of PPP's 22 first posts scummy. My point in 375 is the mountain of bullshit burying the bad vote.

[Belisarius]

Did you get your answer?

Yes; I don't agree that there was any desperation present, though

[goodmorning]

@Cub: This game has crazy bursts of activity. This means that
a. things pass my notice until a look-back
b. other things seem more important
c. it's not something that one could really make a question about.
That is why I didn't question those things in real time.

My vote is not bad. If you want me to consider it so, you're going to have to come up with some actual points in his favour, because I've not seen any.

@Beli, it's fine that you disagree. I will definitely be doing the second half though, because it's his recent interactions with implosion that have given me what is probably the hardest scumread I've ever had.

@Cheery: As Scum (especially when replacing in, but applies at all times) it's really easy to mislynch a player by thieving and refining points from a Town player against another Town player. If by some great stretch of the imagination ppp actually was Town (which he's not) I wouldn't want that to happen with my points. Stating suspicions is sufficient in my opinion.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery: As Scum (especially when replacing in, but applies at all times) it's really easy to mislynch a player by thieving and refining points from a Town player against another Town player. If by some great stretch of the imagination ppp actually was Town (which he's not) I wouldn't want that to happen with my points. Stating suspicions is sufficient in my opinion.

But you then when you're right you won't get town doing it either, and the lynch won't go through.
I believe what fits here is the saying that the best defense is offense
I believe scum would rather have limited training given for mislynch wagons they join than have to work out a stance based on amother townie's points.
if scum are however stealing points, then we look for the point stealers, catch them and get them lynched.

[Belisarius]

@Cheery: As Scum (especially when replacing in, but applies at all times) it's really easy to mislynch a player by thieving and refining points from a Town player against another Town player. If by some great stretch of the imagination ppp actually was Town (which he's not) I wouldn't want that to happen with my points. Stating suspicions is sufficient in my opinion.

Not giving reasons means you can't be held accountable for them later. Really not liking this answer.

@Cub: Haven't you ever re-read a good book or re-watched a good movie and taken away something different? I don't see how it's so hard to believe that something didn't pop on the first readthrough. I've lost track of how many times I've seen/read

Hamlet

and came away with something previously unnoticed.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that this is what happened to gm?

[Cub Daigoro]

My vote is not bad. If you want me to consider it so, you're going to have to come up with some actual points in his favour, because I've not seen any.

It's not bad in the sense that the target is wrong (although I believe it is). If that were the case, I'll consider all the Apozzle votes bad.

It's bad in the sense that the reason you provided for it rings false, and you've thus far declined to elaborate on PPP's "desperation." It comes across as you deciding it was time to join the PPP wagon and then trying to find a reason to do so, which is backwards if you're town.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that this is what happened to gm?

Because she didn't go back and cobble together her case until AFTER her "desperation" vote.

If she had used this re-read as a basis for the vote, it would make more sense. Instead, it comes across as cover for her bad vote, especially considering that she found more than half of his posts scummy. No one is that consistently scummy, not even scum.

When you look at the points she makes, there's no cohesive picture of a scum mindset, just a string of tells, most of which are huge stretches. Prime example:

179: Calls Apozzle scummy for that stupid stunt he did.
Why it's scummy: Fourth lynch candidate in 80 hours? Bit quick to set up lynches, sir.

Four scum reads in three and a half days is scummy? ...Wut?

[Edosurist]

Before I want to say anything else, Zaicon's post 365 is incredibly town. It generally looks like my posts when I come back from a hiatus of sorts.

I mean, come on. 327 is Scum screaming "SHIT SHIT EASY WAY OUT MAYBE??????"

Actually, I thought the opposite. It looked like one of the better votes so far, and I agreed with many of his points.

What about it looks desperate and how?

This question was going to get answered right now, but I'm about to fall asleep on my computer so it'll have to wait. BUT I WILL REMEMBER.

--

Did you have a specific critique of my points there?

Asked and answered by 331. If you're looking for an in-depth critique of each point, go ask a debate team or an English teacher.

The problem I see here is that you say you'll respond to Beli, but tell popp you won't respond to him on a point that is almost identical.
And then you make post 373.

I dislike this because it's a full on case on popp (not to mention I consider many of those reads to be wrong, and some of the tells fundamentally false).
Why do you make a new case to present to Beli that completely disregards the post that you originally found scummy? If you legitimately thought that post was scummy, you would include it in your ISO on him, and you wouldn't brush it off, ignoring any request to clarify why it's a desperate post.

VOTE: goodmorning

[Gammagooey]

Votecount #8

Apozzle (4) ac1983fan, Human Destroyer, pieceofpecanpie, Nobody Special
goodmorning (4) Cub Diagoro, Zaicon, Cheery Dog, Edosurist
pieceofpecanpie (2) implosion, goodmorning
Nobody Special (2) Apozzle, SafetyDance
SafetyDance (1) Belisarius
Cub Diagoro (0)
Belisarius (0)
Cheery Dog (0)
implosion (0)
Zaicon (0)
Edosurist (0)
ac1983fan (0)
Human Destroyer(0)
Not Voting: Nobody!

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline: Saturday, March 9th 1:00am EST

[Edosurist]

Reads, in order of scumminess right now:
goodmorning <- Scum
Apozzle
Cub Diagro <- Slight scum
Belisarius
Safety Dance (I have a bad feeling about him. It's not what Cub's been saying, but I can't put my finger on it. Gut read for now)
acfan1983, Human Destroyer, Messiah (who's this guy?) <- Null
pieceofpecanpie <- Slight town
Cheery Dog <- Town
Zaicon
implosion

I intentionally skipped NS because I'm only voting for him if we have no other choice.

[pieceofpecanpie]

I will present a rebuttal to goodmorning through a brief recap...

This:

Reasons/thought process for unvoting Safety:

• - Apart from finding his #105 scummy and nonsensical his subsequent posts either haven't seemed scummy or been negligible
  - I don't want to jump the gun, but his aggressive defence has read more town than scum
  - The main thing that sticks in my craw is his stubbornness towards NS given there are much more interesting target and avenues to explore Day 1
  - I really didn't like implosion zealously coming in to defend Safety in #109 when he admits that he hasn't read Safety in #119, this of course generates a lot of potential speculation over why this happened at all, but for now that has to go in the backburner. As a consequence however, it leaves some uncertainties over Safety (along with implosion)
  - On the whole Safety is a null tell (and thus not good voting fodder), I disagree with his major actions (votes, target choice, reasoning etc.) but find him at the very least reasonably consistent. Breaking down other elements of his gameplay at this point are too speculative and I'm not comfortable making such guesses right now. He remains on my watch list.

VOTE: Apozzle

Reasons/thought process for voting Apozzle:

• - #162 making a forced town tell,
  "hey guys you should care that I've been away for so long, it's bad for town."
  and again in #178, while completely negating to do anything useful except argue this point across
  - #200 weak and easy vote on NS, my criticism is in line with ac1983fan's #208:
  

  " NS is an easy lynch so vote but I'll act like I don't agree with the reasons to distance myself from the wagon later"

  
  - #213 stubborn refusal of criticism,
  this
  is the important reaction from Apozzle regarding people calling him out NOT his chameleon-like turn around in #228 & #230. What this means is that he appears to want to cooperate with town and care about town, but when it comes down to it will put down a weak vote and then deny any wrongdoing before eventually being cajoled into responding with a bit more openness due to all the negative reactions. This openness is fake, if active lurking is enough for a vote on NS - #225 - then why pretend it isn't a policy lynch? If it was all a simple misunderstanding - #230 - then why the initial reaction in #213?
  - It is indeed troubling! (re:Cub's #239) That Apozzle can manipulate his stance in such a way that you find it comforting is plausible, but what can't be denied is all he's achieved is putting a weak vote on an active lurker. And what has he done since then you may ask? #288 active lurking and ignoring questions
  - From every way you choose to read Apozzle you will find yourself wondering what the truth
  really
  is. I don't trust him, he needs rope.

Is turned into this:

Vote: ppp

I mean, come on. 327 is Scum screaming "SHIT SHIT EASY WAY OUT MAYBE??????"

My response:

Did you have a specific critique of my points there?

Then this:

They look desperate. In a low-key situation.

Is turned into this:

They look desperate. In a low-key situation.

You mean to say I desperately thought out some points, rationalised them and put down a vote?

goodmorning's response:

You mean to say I desperately thought out some points, rationalised them and put down a vote?

No. Please stop attempting to misrep me.

I'm

the one misrepping??? Fucking lol!

My specific critique of your #373 is that it's a reeking baloney sandwich between two slices of misrepping sourdough topped with a fair share of desperation dill. If that's how you build a case then I hope you're not planning on getting into construction anytime soon. Oh and this rubbish about not sharing specifics because it helps scum, I don't know where you read that strategy as I, for one, have no idea what you're talking about. Is that your best excuse for casting a vote with opportunistic impunity and taking time out to make up some shit later on?

[Apozzle]

Soo. To start I guess:

Unvote.

It took me far too long to get through all this material - I started working through everything on Friday and people just keep posting, and I kept having to go back and reevalute things (jerks). I would apologize for the following medium sized post, but I really do not care.

Cub

So far, most of Cub's behaviour consistently makes a lot of sense to me - I can't really find much issue with the logic behind his movements. The only weird thing is that none of his responses to what I've done have indicated even the least bit of suspicion, regardless of how confusing it was for others. Maybe we have been following similar thought processes in this game or something like that (maybe it is that we have played together and he sees consistency with that instance). He has said he has a reason, so okay. Other than that, I can see nothing from him that I feel stands up as being scummy under scrutiny. I can honestly say that I believe Cub to be town right now.

goodmorning

Maybe he does, I can't speak for him.

And yet... you seem to be trying to.

I really do not get the strong townread on Safety, and it seems so strange how defensive of him she appears. I am pretty sure that I do not like the "avoiding presenting evidence because scum might use it later" argument. Quite a few of her posts seem to include weird passages - appeals to... I do not know what, but something. Things like this:

You should obviously sheep me, I keep forgetting this game exists.

HEY WHOA

THAT TUNNEL WAS COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED

CASES ARE SO GODDAMNED BORING AND I CAN'T DO ANY MORE RIGHT NOW

Feel like they are designed as some kind of disarming tactic. I have scumfeels about GM.

implosion

Posts 0-122

His case on Cub was weak, and his reactions to POP during this time strike me as being somewhat empty of content. But, it was early in the game, so I can benefit of doubt that for now.

Posts 317-

The feeling of his posts changes after he returns from his extended absence (which, as an aside, was hilariously punctuated with three days of apology posts). His case against PPP actually feels strong. But I have concerns about the Safety opinion: how does your absolute stance against day one partner hunting gel with a town read on Safety given his accusations of people being scum buddies with NS?

I am feeling some towniness from implosion right now. Hopefully he will answer that above question, and unless his answer is ridiculous I have no further beef with him today.

pieceofpecanpie

I am somewhat on the fence about PPP (actually, what is your preferred abbreviation? I've seen a few different ones being used here). I see two major patterns here: (1) Some/many of his reactions are over the top... (yes, he overreacts a lot of the time). Originally, I read this entirely as he was not responding carefully (not scummy in my opinion). But from another perspective, it could also look more like he is trying to come off as confident - a strategy of (in one case literally) shouting down his opponents. (2) He is careful with his vote. Only voted twice, and there is no inherent weakness in the cases of the people he votes for.

Basically, PPP comes off as belligerent, but cautious in voting. And I really do not know what to say about that behaviour in terms of scum/town. I feel like it can go either way, and I cannot make an early call because I have not played with him before and it is really a personality thing.

Cheery Dog

I did not agree with the early game vote on Cub, but the rest of his votes and posts seem town-oriented. Really, I do not see any way I can form a scum argument without going WIFOM at this point. So I think I must tentatively declare a town read on Cheery.

SafetyDance

Posts 1-132

Safety was an easy lynch. He looked all over the place vis-a-vis the NS' scumbuddy crap, which should have made it easy to push a lynch on him.

Posts 215-

So why does the wagon end up breaking? Why did he not get pushed to L-1? His behaviour feels different immediately after the absence. Everything suddenly seems well-reasoned and logical, and yeah... that is enough to break a wagon really. Cub is still fighting him because of that thing, but Safety seems to be backing off of it a little.

Safety will/should not get lynched today. Partly because of the dusk-VLA (which is really frustrating, by the way) makes it too risky to push a wagon on him, partly because there are other valid targets. However, he is the person I would be most interested in seeing flip, because I think it would give us a lot of information to work with. I will not give a town/scum read either way on him at this point.

Belisarius

Your opinion of Safety does not appear to have changed given current events. You said earlier that you would have me if you could not have Safety, and as I just said: really not looking like you will get Safety today. Although, I have to say I cannot actually see you making any case for me being scum anywhere. You just threw me out as your second choice.

Beli's comments mostly seem reasonable in a town frame (couple of weird exceptions like that comment about having other-game reason to believe NS was town). He did the same thing that I did in terms of pointing out that he was doing something scummy, and I cannot really comment on that since I did it too. I am feeling some gut though and I cannot find what is triggering it in his posts. So I think I will hold off for now on trying to give a read one way or the other.

Nobody Special

It's been a long, busy weekend. This is a prod-dodge promising real content tomorrow.

A whole lotta banging on the keyboard and almost no substance. Amazing, really.

NS is just so pro at fulfilling those content promises. Whatever. He is still active lurking. He is still getting a pass on it. Fine. Whatever. For the sake of completion I will just quote what I said earlier, which still stands.

I don't support lynching him today just because he is difficult to read.
I also don't support refusing to lynch him because he is difficult to read.
I consider voting him because of his lurking acceptable, because it is generally scummy behaviour. He should not get a free pass because "he always does it". If that is the policy when you play with him, then you give him an advantage whenever he is scum.

He is not going to get lynched today because of the ridiculous meta argument which has been discussed to death (courtesy of me hating it). If he does not pick it up on Day 2, then you better bloody well murder him.

ac1983 fan

ac has some of the longest posts... which are almost entirely quotes. So many of the things he posted turned out to not be actual content. For some reason I thought that he looked town before I actually ISO'd his posts. After his initial posts (and even those barely qualify) I cannot find any real reads on people who he is not voting for at the time (other than Safety - he makes a noncommital comment about him looking scummy at one point). He is either tunneling, or doing... something else? I have some light scumfeels... scumtickles... scum-inklings.

Edosurist

It is Wednesday and he has not added anything yet. But I seem him there in the user list! UPDATE: He posted! Hurrah!

He voted and unvoted Safety at acceptable times, and that is really all. His other comments read as fairly passive town. Actually, he seems all around to be a passive player (at least in comparison to some of the other people here) and note I did not say reactive, I said passive: he is not aggressive about anything, he is not really ruffling feathers. Have to say null for now.

Zaicon

When Zaicon posts, it is solid. That is all I can say right now. Tough to read the lower activities, but what he has posted is good. He can go in the tentative town pile for now.

Messiah/Human Destroyer

Messiah. Damn it. He managed to make one post the entire time, and it was a vote on Safety. He gave no information about that spot. All of my frustration is directed at him (except for the 100% of my frustration which is directed at NS).

HD replaced in. His first content post was jumping on the me-wagon. All subsequent posts seem to have revolved around me. He seems to be riding what looks like an easy wagon for the last hours of day. Totally scumfeels.

---

And there we go. That is all I have. A

CURRENT

summary of my

TENTATIVE

feelings:

Towny Pile: Cub, implosion, Cheery, Zaicon.
Null Pile: PPP, Safety, Belisarius, Edosurist.
Scummy Pile: GM, ac1983 fan, HD.
Screw-This Pile: NS.

And I will add my vote to the GM pile:

Vote: goodmorning.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Now let's see, I'll just grab the latest votecount and work a summary/reads from that.

Apozzle

- Shifty, flippant, untrustworthy. My number one lynch candidate. Put forward my case in #327

goodmorning

- #329 begins a bogus series of attacks. Everyone should be aware of the last few posts from him. I agree with most of the recent criticism that has been directed his way, some of my thoughts are put forward in #389, however I'd still prefer to devote my energy in pushing an Apozzle lynch. He's my secondary lynch candidate.

Nobody Special

- I stand by my #177. Pointless Day 1 lynch, but should become topic of discussion down the track. Hopefully he'll have started contributing by then so we have something to discuss beyond policy lynches.

SafetyDance

- Thoughts on Safety outlined in #327. I like what Edo said previously, "I have a bad feeling about him [...] but I can't put my finger on it."

Cub Diagoro

- Despite posting with frequency I can't say I've paid much attention to Cub, not because of anything he has/hasn't said, but because I haven't cast my mind in his direction. Null for now.

Belisarius

- Seems on the level, but I haven't really tested for anything beneath the surface. Null.

Cheery Dog

- A wee bit passive for my liking. A wee bit safe. Would like to hear more from him.

implosion

- Possible chainsaw defence of Safety, but leaning more VI. Put forward this point in #360

Zaicon

- Eh, null. Need more everything.

Edosurist

- Seems on the level, but mostly as above.

ac1983fan

- Despite NS' ironic #323, there is something unsettling about ac1983fan's play thus far. I kind of see him gathering the kindling and watching others set the pyre alight. That's part of my concern, the other concerning part is that NS may be right. Would definitely like to hear more from him.

Human Destroyer

- Someone mentioned something about this guy taking a page out of Thor's replacement rulebook and that seems to ring pretty true. I am nominating him for Best Performer in the role of Spot the Occasionally Different-Looking Avatar Guy. Needs to make a real appearance in the game.

@Mod

Messiah is still on your votecount, with Human Destroyer absent.

Fixed

Edit: I see Apozzle posted while I was typing this one out, but I'm leaving this as is and checking his post after.

[implosion]

This is a really busy week. I have a lab report due today that's going to take up a fair amount of time, and I have a paper due friday evening that i'm going to have to work on a lot tomorrow. Long story short, I may have time to give a lot more substance but probably not a

lot

. When I next have the energy/mood to focus on this game (ideally and i'd say probably later tonight, definitely tomorrow if not tonight), i'm going to iso goodmorning and appozzle. I will probably be here for several hours immediately before the deadline if necessary, if it comes to that.

[goodmorning]

Conclusion of the case in the morning, with a quick side note to say: he's just posted a readslist, let's tally it up. Towns:0 Nulls:8 Scums:3 NSs:1 In what universe does a readslist like that come from Town?

Tentative calling of the scums in case I'm stupidlynched overnight:
ppp/Edo/(Cub/ac)

Hard Townreads:
Safety/implosion/Zai

Soft Townreads:
Beli/Cheery

Null: everyone else

@Cheery, Beli, etc.
I'm in a cautious phase at the moment, oh well.

@ppp: Making cases makes me want to punch things. It is my least favorite part of the game and I therefore tend to avoid it whenever possible.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@#390

Hoooly...

Apozzle, wow. Full credit to your reads. I haven't read something so succinct yet brimming with shrewd insight in quite a while. Wish you'd done that sooner.

You've just gone and bought a lifeline off me, I can't deny you the opportunity to produce more of the above for another day.

UNVOTE:

However, I don't have a short memory. So if I get the slightest inkling of unease I'll be on you like white on rice.

I'd like to address a few points from your post properly soon.

(actually, what is your preferred abbreviation? I've seen a few different ones being used here)

In the past I've mostly seen PoPP, PoP, Pecan and Pie. PPP is a new one. I'm not fussed, as long as there aren't any similar acronyms. I've quoted Snatch in previous games by saying "you can call me Susan if it makes you happy".

[pieceofpecanpie]

Conclusion of the case in the morning, with a quick side note to say: he's just posted a readslist, let's tally it up. Towns:0 Nulls:8 Scums:3 NSs:1

News flash! Updated reads list for people who can't read good and want to learn how to do other stuff good too (and due to Apozzle's recent post):

Scum: 1 (goodmorning)
Scummy: 1 (Safety)
On Notice: 3 (NS, Apozzle, ac1983fan)
Null: 4 (Cub, Cheery Dog, Zaicon, Human Destroyer)
Null/Leaning Town: 3 (Belisarius, Edo, implosion)

In what universe does a readslist like that come from Town?

Oh, oh, teacher can I answer that? Ours...

Scum: 1 (goodmorning)

Consider this my statement of intent to put you at L-1. You'd better tack on a claim with that case conclusion.

[Belisarius]

"you can call me Susan if it makes you happy".

You should

not

have said that.

Consider this my statement of intent to put you at L-1. You'd better tack on a claim with that case conclusion.

Woah there. Claim comes after intent to hammer, not intent to L-1

[pieceofpecanpie]

Well in a perfect world that may be the case, but who's to say anyone would follow such protocol? I put down the intent, rather than a vote, for the same reason.

She's off for the night, so no need to encourage ninja hammers.

Don't take the wind out of my intimidation sails.

[Edosurist]

@GM Re: popp's small townread count
popp's probably just scumhunting, not townhunting <glances at ac>


And while we're on the topic of names and abbreviations, I'm just going to point out what I usually do once each game (Usually in my first RVS post, but I kinda missed my chance for that):
You can call me

Edosurist

,

Edos

, or

Urist

.

Why?
It actually translates to "Amazed Dagger" (major kudos if you know what language), so saying Edo is like callimg me "Amaz"... which makes no sense.
Edo is the ancient name for Tokyo, translating to "estuary".
I am not Japanese, nor am I a body of salty water filled with oil, pollution, or floating rubber duckies.

Arigato

Thank you

[Cub Daigoro]

@Bel, since Safety does not seem like a viable lynch today, which way are you leaning with your vote?