The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[The Baltimore Sun]

Day 3, Votecount 22

Equinox (5) - ChannelDelibird, BT, Nostredeus, Plessiezarus, JasonT1981

BT (5) - kuribo, Deasvail, Cerulean, Zdenek, camn

Nostredeus (2) - Benmage, Shaft

Not voting (0) :

Equinox

• With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 9th of March at 17:15pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-09 13:15:28)
  
• Deasvail is V/la

[BT]

Attempting to make this as to-the-point as possible. Intended for Cerulean and anyone keeping up with these arguments.

Reply to #2474:

And I refuse to assume BT is town

You refuse to read my posts, too.

What gives you the impression he's refusing to read your posts? This looks like you trying to discredit someone who has a scum read on you, which has been a favored tactic of yours and which is actually strengthening my scum read on you.

Answered to kuribo.

Don't see this as any kind of town tell. Why wouldn't scum-BT want to discredit votes on his partners wagon? Especially a tracker?

Why

would

the scumteam want to discredit votes on an even-night tracker, especially considering it was Death Fodder absta? Your logic works backwards here.

Exhibit A. No one knew that absta was death fodder, until he actually was death fodder. If it is possible that the scum team is small, then early bussing is unlikely. And your interactions in relation to absta look scummy as hell. For instance, you've made this case against TML (and for the record your case came after CDB's so you didn't get the wagon going as you later claim). What I find interesting is that you subtly throw suspicion on Absta but you don't do anything about it at all. In fact, you attack TML for daring to vote absta. Why was a vote on scum!absta a wasted vote?

My logic works fine, scum defend their buddies all the time especially if one's a pr. Your attempt to discredit my thoughts on that is scummy.

I noted this on D2 -- the scumteam killed Shadoweh without knowing that absta was going to die. Since absta was a main suspicion of her's (and people were def. going to analyze the reason behind her flip), camn was already up his throat and he was a forgettable 'this guy might be scum' slot in general, it all points to him being expendable.

It wasn't a subtle way of throwing suspicion more than it was a post I wanted people to analyze because it stood out.

It was a wasted vote because TML was sitting on it for a while doing nothing while commenting lightly on the big wagons. Aside from the occasional "guys, absta is worse than SD", there really wasn't anything there. It didn't look like he was trying to push absta's lynch more than he was simply showing he was paying attention by weakening the SD wagon like that.

Jason was a strong scum read for us day one, and he really hasn't done anything to read as town. The only thing that clears him is his gambit and the push that TGAH gave to him.

Hi there, I happen to be one of those people that made clear that there are absta-Jason connections that clear Jason, multiple times. I know you're being lazy with your scumread on me but this is ridiculous.

So? Do you want a cookie? Just because YOU think the absta quote clears Jason doesn't mean it actually does. Jason isn't behaving like town, has been coasting and continuing his mantra of lynch kuribo, which incidentally I find it really interesting that you attacked DV for going after his scum read SAD yesterday and still having you as a scum read because he was wrong yesterday in Post 2478 (which by the way has to be the oiliest post in the whole thread so congrats on that!) BUT you haven't said one thing about the fact that Jason pushed for SAD yesterday too, was wrong, and is not reassessing today. But, I guess it's more important to just discredit your attackers than it is to actually apply a similar expectation of reassessing reads to everyone especially when you're not the one in danger.

Considering I townread Jason and suspect DV (which you note in this post), it isn't surprising at all that I paid closer attention to DV's actions or outright missed some of Jason's.

I agree that Jason's play is beyond suboptimal but I also think that he's town.

I kind of expected people to automatically agree with me on Jason because it really did seem clear-cut to me. Can you tell me what you disagree with from these posts?

What did you mean to link to when you mentioned 'the oiliest post in the thread'?

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.

You two are officially in time out and can not look at or speak to each other for one hour.

Note that I do think you're town -- the above is yet another quote to add to the collection, but I do think you're taking up kuribo's method of not paying attention to scumreads.

Uh-oh...are you telling me your town read of us is in danger too like you did DV? I might cry. (Empire already is, but we can keep that between us)

What was your purpose in even commenting on this? It looks like a throwaway comment to try to discredit an attacker some more and is especially so since it comes after we voted for you. That quote had not nyet nothing to do with me paying attention to a scum read. Quite the contrary, I wanted two of my townreads to stop bickering, because I think they're town and extended bickering gives scum a place to hide.

I meant that quote was a town post. The 'but' that comes afterwards confirms this (you're town, but you've gotta stop doing this! etcetera) though I understand why you got mixed up.

I already said that I literally don't remember the last time I townread DV. My stance in the post you're referring to is "have reason to think scum, but waffling because of lack of contribution to better base the read".

Camn - to answer your question: Nostredeus without a doubt, closely followed by Jason.

Why not DV here? Not that the other two aren't useless, but what's the thought process here?

I've made it clear that I can't follow Nostredeus' thought process, and if he's town I don't want him anywhere near LyLo. Quite frankly I can't tell if he's scum or really bad town and will lose no tears if he goes. Jason is someone I think is scummy, and don't want anywhere near LyLo either if he's town. I don't trust Jason to actually catch up on this thread nor do I trust him to get past his annoyance with a player to judge who scum really is; he's coasting and hasn't demonstrated an interest in actually contributing to this game. I mean all we have to do is see that the most he's done today is suggest a Kuribo lynch again.

Why not DV? Why DV is the better question. And you know you were full of bs in your response to Kuribo in Post 2439. You have stated a leaning town read on DV in the very post kuribo was responding too . And just so you know DV is not useless. He might waffle a bit and be unsure of his reads (but so am I a lot) but he's not useless. I've seen games where he has called most of the scum team day one, he just lacks the certainty to usually push it through. You trying to discredit him is really scummy. Besides, we're reading him as town. I think he's town and Empire's pretty decent at reading him and says he's town too, so that's a no go on DV.

Already explained that it was far from a leaning-town read. What made you think that in the first place, by the way? I was very clearly presenting arguments against DV.

This doesn't seem like a 'town, but can't get his shit together' game to me. He may be uncertain as both alignments (gonna trust you on this one, even though I don't think he was uncertain during Mafiastuck more than he was nonexistent), but his uncertainty touches one or two reads at a time -- I don't recall him having a solid set of reads anywhere during the game, and right now I'm pretty sure the only one he's pushing as scum is me. Uncertainty? Yes. Town failing to push things through? No. His low scope and general laziness in pushing his reads suggest scum, and no, I'm not basing this off of his recent inactivity -- he's been basically lurking for most of D3, his lacking post with arguments for my lynch being his only contribution.

I mean no offense, but from what I remember of your reads over the course of the game, the accuracy of your scumhunting in this game isn't stellar, the both of you. Explain to me why you both read DV as town.

Another question for DV when / if he replies to them:

This is scummy. This is trying to make it look like DV isn't answering questions that have been asked of him. I don't remember this happening, so it looks like mudslinging.

Fair enough, though I did get the impression he could have at least replied to -something- before disappearing for a few more days. I was pretty much showing my irritation, rather than mudslinging.

Other than the fact TGAH attacked Nost (which I'd been assuming meant Nost was probably not Police), I think Nost looks pretty awful.

Could you elaborate on this? CDB's "I don't see anything fake" is exactly the stance I took regarding Nost on D2 and it hasn't changed.

Interesting that now your position is wavering on Nost, but that's the subject of another post.

If memory serves, you expand on this in the next post, so I'll reply there. If not, I'll reply separately.

[BT]

And what do you, Cerulean and DV have in common? A QT, but besides that, none of you give me the impression that the current lynch possibility dangling above my slot is justified. During D2, I fully accepted the fact that I played sub-optimally and I compensated in every way I could, including volunteering to be lynched just so people like you would move on. Yet right now I'm still struggling to figure out what's making me a possible fallback option over others (

hello

DV,

Nost)

besides magical rainbow orgasms in that QT.

Could you be any more scummy?

Ehh?

You said it yourself -- my play had a part in making you doubt your read. Obviously this is referring to my end-of-D2 play which plenty of people thought was town. Why? Because people are telling under pressure. It's why you want to pressure people in the first place. You got to witness one of the most pathetic sagas in my mafia career, because I decided to literally scramble and make the most out of my slot before I was done for. What more do you need?

Oh yep you can. Everyone thought I was town when I acted like town when I was about to get lynched! How can you not see I was so town? Anyone halfway competent at this game knows how to "act like town" when about to be lynched, and acting as if that could not have come from scum doing what he had to do is *headdesk* worthy. The very fact that you can describe why people wavered on you at the end of yesterday demonstrates that you understand very well what to do to get people not to vote you and make them think you're town.

This is where I explain what I meant when I said I think I figured out the reason I'm so adamant on my townieness -- I'm used to playing with people who know my meta. In the post you're referring to, I pointed out that I was way to -out there- to be scum, because it's actually a strong meta point. I'm generally really calculated as scum, but at the end of D2 I was... just... spontaneous, way too spontaneous than what I'm possibly able to fake as scum. Unfortunately, the people who know my meta well are dead, but this should basically explain that part of the post you're talking about.

In other news, Plessiez's #2443 is excellent. Deadline isn't far away and I'm gonna be busy for the next few days but I do want to reanalyze Nost and compare with TML/Equinox now. They're probably not scum together, at any rate.

And you can be even scummier. I get reassessing reads. But let's look at how many times you defend Nost. In fact, yesterday, you basically were calling Sotty scum for their push on Nost. And now, now, that you see the equinox wagon falling apart and your wagon rising again, suddenly it's time to re-read Nost because you haven't really read him . Hmm... you admitted to Zdenek that you don't really pay attention to your buddies posts would you say you're treating Nost like a buddy? You've either been white-knighting him in a really weird way or protecting your partner, and your shift to now needing to read him because Pless made an excellent case looks scummy and opportunistic as fuck. Pless isn't as easy to attack as Sotty, huh?

Here we are. I was paranoid over sotty's slot at the time and Plessiez is a major townread. Though, yes, I will admit that I never

properly, thoroughly

reread Nost, which explains why I cited "he feels town / he doesn't feel scum" in every one of those posts. When I said the post was excellent, I meant that it was excellent -- it showed some convincingly weird behavior that warrants a better look-out for the slot.

I disagree with "The Equinox wagon falling apart" -- CDB, Pless, Nost and I have basically

been

the wagon all day, and none of us lost interest.

[BT]

Now, if Tammy thought I was tunneling on town, she'd tell me so. DV might not, but Tammy and Empire certainly would. And they damn sure wouldn't do the legwork to help me make a case that's just going to look weak.

I wanted to reply to this earlier. No, she wouldn't, because she's just as far into this as you are. The only one in there to right both of your wrongs is DV, but he just floated over to match your PoV and has now completed a full D3 lurk.

[BT]

So yes, I do think DV is scum, the only one in the QT. I welcome both of you and Cerulean to convince me otherwise.

[BT]

Zdenek, Kise, where do you stand at the moment?

[Shaft]

Intended for Cerulean and anyone keeping up with these arguments.

k yeah, Gonna be honest, I don't see the big back and forth thing proving anything about alignment. It looks like a disagreement, nothing more, but if one of you guys catch an inconsistent slip, you could bold it.

Zdenek, Kise, where do you stand at the moment?

Specifically, in regards to what?

[BT]

TBH I responded to a lot of things there and there are some TML/DV suspicions inbetween. It's worth a skim over at worst.

In regards to your vote.

[BT]

It's less than two days to deadline, so yeah.

[Shaft]

Yeah I skimmed 2576 but if I feel the need to skim instead of giving all of my attention, something's up with that.

The way Nos is hardcore tying himself to you makes me think you were gonna flip town (he wasn't in danger of a lynch at the time, just suspected). I'd go Eq right now. I didn't want to be a dick but he chose to stay and not let TML take the rope. Or I coulda been drunk and just hoped Faraday would let something like that happen even after Eq got the role PM.

Also, before I could point it out, CDB gave Eq the "slap yourself" post with 2572.

Ok.

unvote, vote: equinox

[BT]

I also don't believe there's much evidence that the SAD wagon won out over the BT wagon because of a push by scum: the key people who switched were CDB, who we have a weak but strengthening town-read on, and sotty, who's already flipped town. So, yeah, Equinox is the better lynch, I think.

I was going to say something like this when I entered D3 -- that the last-minute votes didn't seem scum-motivated despite my paranoia over scum preferring to lynch SAD. CDB has progressively seemed like town ever since.

[BT]

By the way, lynch priority is Equinox > DV > Nostredeus > {CDB, Kise} > {camn, Jason} > Benmage > {Cerulean, Plessiezarus, kuribo} > Zdenek.

[Cerulean]

I mean no offense, but from what I remember of your reads over the course of the game, the accuracy of your scumhunting in this game isn't stellar, the both of you. Explain to me why you both read DV as town.

I'm in the middle of something, so can just respond real quick but,

No you might not mean to offend, but you do mean to discredit. And this is where I can't break away from a scum read on you, and if you are on the off chance town, you should stop doing things like this because you've been doing this all game. You've set out to discredit and undermine anyone who has suspected you and that's scummy. You've done it to me, kuribo, dv, Sotty yesterday...and your statement that you were paranoid of Sotty yesterday reads pretty much bs today especially since you say you haven't reread Nostredeus. If you hadn't properly read him then why were you attacking Sotty for attacking nost yesterday?

It's almost like you read my response about Dan saying that to me and me thinking it's a good tactic to use against me because I have a tendency to doubt myself and my reads and figured you'd use it against me as well. But, looking back at the people who've flipped so far and my reads on them, I feel pretty good about my reads so far.

[Cerulean]

By the way, lynch priority is Equinox > DV > Nostredeus > {CDB, Kise} > {camn, Jason} > Benmage > {Cerulean, Plessiezarus, kuribo} > Zdenek.

Why do you have Jason listed before benmage or us if you think that absta interaction clears Jason?

[BT]

No you might not mean to offend, but you do mean to discredit. And this is where I can't break away from a scum read on you, and if you are on the off chance town, you should stop doing things like this because you've been doing this all game. You've set out to discredit and undermine anyone who has suspected you and that's scummy. You've done it to me, kuribo, dv, Sotty yesterday...and your statement that you were paranoid of Sotty yesterday reads pretty much bs today especially since you say you haven't reread Nostredeus. If you hadn't properly read him then why were you attacking Sotty for attacking nost yesterday?

Paranoid, as in to sum up the way I treated sottyrulez during the

entirety

of D2. I went from "I'm gonna assume he's town" to "look at the scum" and back so many times I can't keep count. I attacked him, not for reading Nost the way he did, but because it seemed opportunistic to me. Me getting a town feel from Nost's D1 was a factor, yes, but not the catalyst.[/quote]

It's almost like you read my response about Dan saying that to me and me thinking it's a good tactic to use against me because I have a tendency to doubt myself and my reads and figured you'd use it against me as well.

I don't think I actually read that part of your exchange.

But, looking back at the people who've flipped so far and my reads on them, I feel pretty good about my reads so far.

What are you referring to here?

Off the back of my head, you were on Jason and kuribo for a while (like myself, I suppose) and then switched to suspecting me until now.

I said that thing about your reads more because of the DV thing -- I

would

like to know why you read him as town.

P-Edit:

By the way, lynch priority is Equinox > DV > Nostredeus > {CDB, Kise} > {camn, Jason} > Benmage > {Cerulean, Plessiezarus, kuribo} > Zdenek.

Why do you have Jason listed before benmage or us if you think that absta interaction clears Jason?

I regret using 'clear' there, but I really do think it's a very solid interaction. That said, again, that's all I have. I'm solid about your / Pless's play being town and I treat that as stronger than interactions.

[BT]

I'll be back in more than 12 hours. It's 1:00 in the morning.

[BT]

Oh, right, I'll just say that I think I did manage to cool off a bit. It shows in the last page, I think?

[kuribo]

Do you think town, scum or a mix of both are more likely to butter up to those of us who have claimed PRs? Same question for Zd.

mix of both, as it depends on the player, their style, how much they believe the claim, and how much the rest of the town believes the claim

Scum would probably not bother trying to push lynch on an obviously-town player who's claimed a PR, for example

[kuribo]

Now, if Tammy thought I was tunneling on town, she'd tell me so. DV might not, but Tammy and Empire certainly would. And they damn sure wouldn't do the legwork to help me make a case that's just going to look weak.

I wanted to reply to this earlier. No, she wouldn't, because she's just as far into this as you are. The only one in there to right both of your wrongs is DV, but he just floated over to match your PoV and has now completed a full D3 lurk.

And for the record, Tammy's gone back and forth on you quite a few times, and so has Empire. It's not like they've been in this unending tunnel where they can't see daylight--- it's just that you keep digging yourself into a scummier and scummier hole.

You're pretty obviously saying whatever it takes to save your own skin. DV's not getting lynched today, so you may as well forget it. And you get awesome points for trying to push his lynch while he's VLA and can't defend himself.

[Plessiezarus]

Back from the hospital.

I had a brain scan but they didn't find anything, ha ha ... Why me laugh?

Apparently I'm still alive, so I don't have an excuse to ignore this thread. Sad, really.

There is an interesting point to note here: The only wagon from yesterday which TML was not on is the BT wagon, if I had a scum read on BT this would simply make me want TML dead more.

[...]

[TML/camn].are the only two people who can be found on every single wagon

Consistency,

like subtraction

, is apparently not your friend . And, since TML wasn't on the kuribo wagon, neither is literacy. (Yes, the kuribo wagon was an actual wagon yesterday. It really was. No amount of pretending otherwise will change this.)

Also, that "I don't have a scum-read on BT, but if I did..." bit is horrible. Since you

don't

have a scum-read on BT, why say this? Why attempt to influence people with something you must think is a wrong argument? You sound more interested in persuading others than you do in being correct .

The way I'm reading this post, it seems to imply that you're still have suspicions of his alignment/claim. Can you explain?

I do not. I am wondering if his reads are what's keeping him alive. There's a post somewhere in my iso that explains how I do NK analyses.

And yet you say you only "think" he's town...

(Your options at this point are "Zdenek is town" or "the scum team is Benmage, Plessiezarus and Zdenek, and they are all

utter morons

who will be found out tomorrow". You should be a lot more confident in Zdenek as town than merely "thinking" he is.)

I'm not jumping on the counterwagon right away because I lean town on BT for reasons I've already covered, and I haven't had a chance to review BT's play more fully or review the cases that have been put forth against BT. I want to do that. I want to make sure I believe BT is scum because if I still think BT is town after reading, I'm not going to vote BT.

You're not going to vote BT unless you're "sure" he's scum, even if that means you risk getting yourself lynched? Ugh. (Also, I think you were supposed to be working...)

Attempting to make this as to-the-point as possible. [...]

Congratulations on failing horribly!

Remind me to read these properly tomorrow when I'm actually capable of rational thought.

And you get awesome points for trying to push his lynch while he's VLA and can't defend himself.

Er. You think BT was trying to get DV lynched

today

? Because 2586 really reads like "here are my reads in general", not "I want to get these people lynched right now!". (Also, there's nothing wrong with suspecting people who can't defend themselves? Being V/LA doesn't make you town.)

Quick question to anybody in the neighbourhood

:

are you a cult? if so, please pretend you're not and recruit me soon

why exactly is BT a better lynch than TML/Equinox today? If you think my case on TML is wrong or lacking somewhere, then

why

? (If you think there are good answers to this hidden in one of your back and forth walls with BT, then "pretend" I only skimmed those and summarise them for me again, please.)

~ Pless

[Nostredeus]

@Pless: Yeah so quite obviously my point was "if for some reason you don't have a town read on BT *cough see the wagon on BT* then TML is a decent lynch anyway", it's a pretty relevant point dunno what your beef is frankly.

[Cerulean]

Quick question to anybody in the neighbourhood

:

are you a cult? if so, please pretend you're not and recruit me soon

why exactly is BT a better lynch than TML/Equinox today? If you think my case on TML is wrong or lacking somewhere, then

why

? (If you think there are good answers to this hidden in one of your back and forth walls with BT, then "pretend" I only skimmed those and summarise them for me again, please.)

I wish we were a cult!

Meh he's not a better lynch probably. The last message empire left was that he wouldn't lose any tears over an equinox lynch. But, he did tell me he'd let me know what he thought about her meta fitting town more than scum when he got back from his exam, but I'm guessing he doesn't feel really confident in that. And part of that is probably there are only so many people we think are in the scum pool unless we're off on a town read somewhere.

Anyway we're fine with an equinox lynch I guess, and I'll hammer sometime soon if people are ready to end the day, but I'd like to wait for equinox to do what she said she wanted to do this afternoon and empire to come back and give the okay for a vote move.

[Plessiezarus]

@Pless: Yeah so quite obviously my point was "if for some reason you don't have a town read on BT *cough see the wagon on BT* then TML is a decent lynch anyway", it's a pretty relevant point dunno what your beef is frankly.

You think TML is scum, yes/no? You think BT is town, yes/no?

And yet rather than wonder

why

scum!TML wasn't on town!BT's wagon as you "analyse" the day 2 wagons, you're content to say "people who suspect BT should vote for TML!" and not consider the matter any further. You don't wonder if TML not being on BT's wagon might mean TML isn't scum (after all, they weren't actually on every wagon ) or that BT isn't town (why did scum!TML pick SAD's wagon over BT's?).

All you care about is spinning things to get people to vote the way you want them to vote. You're happy trying to persuade people to vote for TML based on what you (claim to) believe are bad assumptions. You're throwing whatever you can at TML without any real interest in whether it's true or false. And you wonder why I have a problem with that?

Anyway we're fine with an equinox lynch I guess, and I'll hammer sometime soon if people are ready to end the day, but I'd like to wait for equinox to do what she said she wanted to do this afternoon and empire to come back and give the okay for a vote move.

Has Equinox claimed already? Don't want anybody to hammer without a claim.

~ Pless

[Equinox]

The way Nos is hardcore tying himself to you makes me think you were gonna flip town (he wasn't in danger of a lynch at the time, just suspected). I'd go Eq right now. I didn't want to be a dick but he chose to stay and not let TML take the rope. Or I coulda been drunk and just hoped Faraday would let something like that happen even after Eq got the role PM.

By the time you got around to voting, I'd already read enough pages to feel invested in the game, so there was no way that either of us could have gotten away with pretending I never replaced in.

And yet you say you only "think" he's town...

(Your options at this point are "Zdenek is town" or "the scum team is Benmage, Plessiezarus and Zdenek, and they are all utter morons who will be found out tomorrow". You should be a lot more confident in Zdenek as town than merely "thinking" he is.)

Go back to my posts and read them in sequence, and you'll see why I inserted "I think he is town" in that line:

1) I said I wanted to do some NK analysis to examine why Shadoweh and sottyrulez were targeted specifically, and I added that I also wanted to examine kuribo, Shaft, and Zdenek, as well.
2) Cerulean asked me if I suspected those people.
3) I explained in a long-ish paragraph that I examined not only the dead but also the living for NK analysis.
4) Nostredeus misread and thought I suspected Zdenek, and he asked me about that.
5) In the post you pointed out, I reiterate what I said to Cerulean while making it clear that I did not suspect Zdenek and in fact thought him to be town.

You're not going to vote BT unless you're "sure" he's scum, even if that means you risk getting yourself lynched? Ugh. (Also, I think you were supposed to be working...)

Because if I lynch BT and he ends up flipping town, guess who dies tomorrow? A wise man once told me to never call a case against me "good" because the case had to be wrong, but this is one of the cases where I will have to admit the "fishing for a QuickTopic" case to be a good one. Hell, if I didn't know The Mini-Librarian's alignment, I'd have lynched him, too. I came across the post a couple of nights ago... or was it last night? Doesn't matter.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I'm treating this like any other situation: Read the suspect, find out if said suspect is scum, and then decide whether or not to vote. If I read and find out that BT is scum, I'll vote and be as loud as need be to make sure he loses his head before I do. If I read and stay with my initial thoughts of BT, then, well, too bad, I tried.

Also, good luck on your dissertations, Cerulean and Nostredeus.

Time to read, I guess.

Preview edit:

Has Equinox claimed already? Don't want anybody to hammer without a claim.

No, I have not.

[Cerulean]

Oh I feel like I should make something clear, especially since it's being raised as a valid point. The neighborhood is not named Orlando's. Nor could it actually be named Orlando's as far as I'm concerned. Naming the neighborhood "Orlando's" would basically be mod-confirming that Kuribo is who he claimed to be, which he wouldn't do.

So, if they do have the ability to "wire-tap" the neighborhood, it's not because they needed to know it was named "Orlando's".