Open 480 - C9++ Game Over!

[Cub Daigoro]

I'll explain why I claimed explicitly. Just not today. I thought about it carefully.

[ac1983fan]

? I haven't seen you actively scumhunt all day.

Every game, I always hear this and I never understand
Like okay I understand I suck at mafia I really do like no one needs to tell me twice
And I did somehow not receive any emails about this thread for the first week of the day and was pretty much only half-here during the last week of the day
But like alright when people accuse me of not scumhunting I don't understand?? Like I ask people questions, read/analyze their posts, etc. I don't know what else I'm supposed to do?
And I know sometimes my posts can veer off topic but that's because I'm merely trying to have some fun with the game since I know I suck at it anyway (but I am trying and I do try hard as established by like my second post)
But yeah, I do scumhunt and I don't understand how to scumhunt other than what I do, also the fact that you're "pinging my scumdar" basically means I have a gut scum read on you and one does not need to scumhunt to have a gut read (nor to be convinced by other people's cases).
--
I'm really disappointed in the GM lynch though I suppose it was inevitable especially since I didn't manage to get around until the very end of the day - really dropped the ball on that. But her flip I think has the potential to give us a lot of good info (even though I'm like 60% sure she'll flip vt)

[goodmorning]

You should be 100% sure because that's what I am. :[

Good luck guys, I'm quite sure my death will be pretty alright in terms of providing information.

[Gammagooey]

Votecount #12: End of Day 1

goodmorning (7) Cub Diagoro, Zaicon, Edosurist, Apozzle, Nobody Special, Cheery Dog, implosion
pieceofpecanpie (1) goodmorning
Belisarius (1) ac1983fan
Apozzle (0)
Nobody Special (0)
SafetyDance (0)
Cub Diagoro (0)
Cheery Dog (0)
implosion (0)
Zaicon (0)
Edosurist (0)
ac1983fan (0)
Human Destroyer(0)
Not Voting: pieceofpecanpie, Human Destroyer, Belisarius, SafetyDance

goodmorning has been lynched!

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline: Saturday, March 9th 1:00am EST

[Gammagooey]

So to try to get rid of the

BAD DUDES

you guys all held a meeting because to kick someone out of town you've gotta all be in one place to agree on stuff right?

But then there was some guy who represented MORNINGS or something and everyone knows mornings are terrible so you figured he was part of the mafia and pushed him out of town, where he was promptly torn apart by a mongol horde that had volunteered to investigate anyone the town exiled.

The leader steps up to you afterwards and says "NOPE, THIS MAN NO FIGHT BACK WHEN WE KILL HIM, AND LEG WOUNDS HE TAKE DURING INVESTIGATION BLEED CLOCKWISE AFTER KICKING, HE BORING MAN, NO KILLER AT ALL."

So everyone shrugs in unison at the mongols and heads back to their homes to go to sleep. Pointing at people is hard work you know.

goodmorning was lynched! He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

Night 1 starts now! Deadline for night actions is 11pm EST on March 11th.

[Gammagooey]

Sorry for the delay, game will open after I'm off work today.

Beep boop actions processing

[Gammagooey]

A shot rings through the air in the early morning, and the townspeople quickly rise from their beds and make their way to the source of the noise. In a field right outside of a mason lodge, you find Cub Diagoro shooting whatever those clay pigeon-y things are called.

"Morning!", he calls out. "Sorry if I woke you, just got bored of sleeping in my fabulous lodge with the extremely strict no-bad-dudes-allowed membership policy."
As he waves to you, you see another clay pigeon shot out to the sky in his direction He turns around and shoots to no effect as the pigeon gets larger in the distance. He shoots again, then cranes his neck to try and get a better look at it before he turns around and starts running.

A few seconds later, a gigantic clay pigeon crushes him and a good chunk of the field he was standing in.

As you contemplate his death, you feel that it'd

probably

be a good idea to hurry up with getting the bad dudes out of town.

Cub Diagoro has been killed n1! He was a

Town Mason

.
Day 2 Starts now, with 11 alive it will take 6 to lynch!

Deadline is March 26th at 9pm EST.

[ac1983fan]

So now we have confirmed town mason Apozzle.
I think Belisarius and Edosourist are both scum. Notice how Edo is always the third or fourth vote on a popular wagon, and never really moves or targets anyone else. Beli i find supiscious for the same reasons I did yesterday.
VOTE: Belisarius

[Zaicon]

ac1983fan

In a line, I don't see much of anything from ac1983fan that is very indicative of alignment. His posts don't go into much detail (and often has no more than a sentence in reply to anything), and while that's not scummy, it's not very helpful, either. Outside of that, I don't have any particular reason to believe he is scum.

@ac1983fan: I would like to see an explanation of your reads, not just a sentence-summary with no explanation.

Apozzle

While I understand the case on him (I believe it is summed up at the end of Post 280 and Post 327), I'm not yet convinced he is scum. His mason claim is plausible and his reads post (390) doesn't seem like it would come from scum. Overall, I don't consider Apozzle a scum suspect.

Semi-Edit: And now he's confirmed mason, so yeah.

Belisarius

I'm not a big fan of Beli's early play. He doesn't

do

very much, despite posting occasionally. He keeps his RVS vote until Post 76 and changes his vote in Post 117 based on other's points, but doesn't really do anything about it. He later states he is willing to vote for Apozzle (Post 219), also without his own reasoning.

Basically, I can't find any specific town motivation in his posts. It doesn't look like he is actually trying to accomplish anything himself; it looks like he is just going along with the game and what he is expected to do.

Cheery Dog

The only thing I really have to comment on is his goodmorning vote. I can't really say what's wrong with it, but it seems off. He unvotes GM in Post 453 due to a GM-town post, but soon afterwards says that he is willing to go right back on GM due to the deadline (and repeats that when he actually does move his vote back). I suppose the issue is that I have no idea why he voted for Apozzle in post 453, since his reasoning in that post no longer applied (according to his vote) soon afterwards.

Semi-Edit: I should also mention that I don't see the purpose in his questions in Post 292.

Cub Daigoro

For the most part, I like his play. There are some things that I don't fully understand (his 'conclusion' in Post 114, for example), but that could easily be misinterpretation as opposed to scum-motivated. Other than that, his posts seem townie and not how I would expect scum to play.

Semi-Edit: And he was killed. But I'll leave this in here anyway.

Edosurist

I don't really like his play. I don't like the way he accuses SafetyDance of having a scum-read on NS and for "overreacting" just due to having 7 posts in a row (Post 160). I don't like the way he calls out ac1983fan simply for not being in the Users reading this Forum list at that time (Post 163). I don't like the way he takes my point about PoPP and tries to redirect my attention towards SafetyDance's actions (Post 206). (Ironically, he calls out goodmorning for having an "obsession" with SD (Post 207).) Something doesn't feel right with his push on SafetyDance and then backing off of it. Post 519 seems odd, too... Meh.

Human Destroyer

There's not much to go off of... Apparently he hasn't read the thread, but that didn't stop him from forming a strong scum read on Apozzle. I don't really understand it, but there's not much I can do about that.

implosion

His early-game cases were weak, but I don't see any particular scummy motivations for them. He was able to explain them (and the other cases he made throughout the game) when questioned, which is the main reason I currently have a town read on implosion.

Nobody Special

I do hope he does something useful Day 2. I had the same impression as in Post 7 before I came into this game...

pieceofpecanpie

I'm not really sure what to think. I have no idea if his play is being caused by his playstyle or his alignment. I've assumed both of those things in the past (and I usually choose the wrong one), so I really don't know how to interpret his play. On one hand, he seems to jump on things quickly and twist them to a certain extent (intentionally or not), but on the other hand, he has posted

a lot

and I would think that the fact that he wasn't lynched Day 1 shows that his play isn't entirely

scummy

, which would probably have been shown by now. At the moment, I tentatively believe he is town-aligned.

SafetyDance

He has defended himself and tunneled Nobody Special. I could see his play coming both from town and from scum, so there's not really much to form a solid read on.

---

At the moment, I would like to vote for Edosurist, who is my strongest scum read.

VOTE: Edosurist

[Cub Daigoro]

Bah! Go town!

[pieceofpecanpie]

I believe today's best targets are Safety and ac1983fan.

I'm going to go with...

VOTE: ac1983fan

Pending a more detailed case, here is a brief summary of why I want to push this:

• - Things I said in my #509
  - His AtE in #526 right before the flip felt forced
  - His opening post had some bad WIFOM about Edo and then a vote onto Belisarius with same reasons as yeserday:
  

  Preparing reads on everyone atm but given the claims I will unvote for the moment and reVOTE: Belisarius since he was scummy earlier on in the day and has vote hopped from wagon to wagon w/o really ccontributing anything new (I know pot kettle)

  
  That's a terrible reason to open a vote onto him at the start of the Day. Shouldn't you at least expand on how this is still relevant for today? For a start, I'm struggling to see how your one point on him is a strong indication of alignment? If he would continue doing this today then yeah you can start drawing links, but you've taken something pretty subjective from Day 1 and just copy-pasted it into Day 2. How is this vote relevant?

@Zaicon

You vote for Edosurist, but your case seems to be focused on what you don't like about his play. Could you clarify

why

doing these things make him scummy?

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery Dog
The only thing I really have to comment on is his goodmorning vote. I can't really say what's wrong with it, but it seems off. He unvotes GM in Post 453 due to a GM-town post, but soon afterwards says that he is willing to go right back on GM due to the deadline (and repeats that when he actually does move his vote back). I suppose the issue is that I have no idea why he voted for Apozzle in post 453, since his reasoning in that post no longer applied (according to his vote) soon afterwards.

Semi-Edit: I should also mention that I don't see the purpose in his questions in Post 292.

I voted Apozzle because I had thought he was also probable town and the way in which GM claimed made me think GM was town, Apozzle was my next biggest scumread, which I realise I never went into full detail of that read (and there's no point doing it now since he's confirmed mason and therefore town - but basically the stuff I was questioning him on in 378).

Apozzle's claim was even more town with how Cub asked him to claim, and I didn't feel like there was any chance of getting another lynch going through so I went back to GM as confirmed is better than supposed for looking at interactions.

If there was more time left in the day, I wouldn't have gone back to GM, but who I can't remember at this stage, I've forgotten what has happened so far.

As for my questions, is the same as most questions I ask, to help me understand people's stances and ideas they're presenting so I can get a better read.
Though why was that a semi-edit, when the other semi-edits were to do with Cub's death?

[ac1983fan]

@ac1983fan: I would like to see an explanation of your reads, not just a sentence-summary with no explanation.

I'll be honest, my reads in this game are almost always 90% gut because I kind of, frankly, am one of the worst mafia players ever.

- His AtE in #526 right before the flip felt forced

See, you can call it an Appeal to Emotion if you want, but I could find other instances of me giving similar explanations in prior games; it's not AtE it's just my response to that standard remark about my play.
The thing I don't get Pie, is why it seems that each successive person that you find suspicious has found you suspicious first.

--
I just got a chance to peruse my notes and remembered something that sprung up to me: implosion's #505 seems very distancy; he indicates a willingness to hammer a player he believes to be town in order to be certain that there is a lynch on that day; while this def. could be motivated by pro-town thinking, the tone of that post combined with his "*sigh*" at the hammer draws my attention.

--
Right, so Belisarius. I've explained why I've been voting him several times throughout this game (and though I would be willing to switch to Edo) but I'll go through him and the reasons I suspect him again:
He does nothing but derp around from ISO 1 to ISO 9, then suddenly in ISO 10 votes SafetyDance, following Messiah and Cub as the third vote on a wagon, openly stating that he is sheeping them. Then in ISO 11 he makes some mysterious claims about some of NS's behavior in this game, but refues to divulge what he is saying (so in other words openly withholding information). he then later claims in ISO 13 that if he's right he "shouldn't be mentioning it at all"...So then why is he mentioning it at all?
Then in ISO 14 he responds to my claim that he has been active lurking with a resounding "Yup," saying that the reason he's been active lurking is because he doesn't have any good scumreads (but isn't that a Cartesian circle? I must lurk until I have good scumreads, but if I lurk I won't get good scumreads)
He then proceeds to tunnel SD for a bit (not exactly a scumtell) until he suddenly hops on the Apozzle wagon once it's gotten quite a bit of steam (putting him at L-2). Although he previously does mention some suspicion of Apozzle, he never gives any reasons why (which actually seemed to slip under my/the town's collective radar the first time). I suppose some of this could be chalked up to playstyle, but his play is definitely anti-town at best and scumtastic at worst.

--
Edosurist I'll admit I've only mentioned briefly in passing a few times before, but I think his scumminess is almost entirely based on his voting history and post #388. His only votes are on SafetyDance and goodmorning, both at times when they were popular wagons. Then in post #388 he posts a list of reads in order of scumminess; Apozzle places second on his list (also I am just now noticing that he GOT MY USERNAME WRONG ARE YOU ALL TRYING TO GET ME TO REACT DO U THINK THIS IS FUNNY PUNKS) despite infrequent mentions of him previously; at the time he was the other popular lynch candidate alongside goodmorning.

There, is that a thorough enough explanation @Zaicon? Like I said, mostly just gut/I kind of suck but I try.

[Belisarius]

@HD: You've had all of night phase to catch up Any reads?

@Susan: Nah, ac's fine. Just because it's D2 doesn't make D1 disappear into the aethyr. The only D1 suspicion that should be abated now would be that directed at Apozzle.

I voted Apozzle because I had thought he was also probable town

WHAT.

VOTE: Cheery Dog

[Cheery Dog]

@HD: You've had all of night phase to catch up Any reads?

@Susan: Nah, ac's fine. Just because it's D2 doesn't make D1 disappear into the aethyr. The only D1 suspicion that should be abated now would be that directed at Apozzle.

I voted Apozzle because I had thought he was also probable town

WHAT.

VOTE: Cheery Dog

The mason flip/claim combination must have routed my typing through a different part of my brain.
It's hard to think in the past whencircumstances change your read that much.

[pieceofpecanpie]

The thing I don't get Pie, is why it seems that each successive person that you find suspicious has found you suspicious first.

Is that how it's been going? I don't remember Apozzle having much to say about me, though I could be wrong I'd need to check.

Your expansion on Belisarius is interesting.

UNVOTE:

Let's forget the early call to arms as it's felt too hasty.

[Edosurist]

(Semi-)Quick post before I type up my new reads after the flips.

Edosurist I'll admit I've only mentioned briefly in passing a few times before, but I think his scumminess is almost entirely based on his voting history and post #388. His only votes are on SafetyDance and goodmorning, both at times when they were popular wagons. Then in post #388 he posts a list of reads in order of scumminess; Apozzle places second on his list (also I am just now noticing that he GOT MY USERNAME WRONG ARE YOU ALL TRYING TO GET ME TO REACT DO U THINK THIS IS FUNNY PUNKS) despite infrequent mentions of him previously; at the time he was the other popular lynch candidate alongside goodmorning.

I only made 17 posts yesterday, spaced at times after the main wagons had formed, so I'm going to have to say that that's not really my fault, and my placement on wagons were out of my control.

The fact that I hadn't referred to Apozzle much that day is also partially because I was barely able to post yesterday. If you want to know why I thought he was scummy, see what others said, and what I said in 233. That's when he first caught my attention.


This is flawed:

Edosurist

I don't really like his play. I don't like the way he accuses SafetyDance of having a scum-read on NS and for "overreacting" just due to having 7 posts in a row (Post 160). I don't like the way he calls out ac1983fan simply for not being in the Users reading this Forum list at that time (Post 163). I don't like the way he takes my point about PoPP and tries to redirect my attention towards SafetyDance's actions (Post 206). (Ironically, he calls out goodmorning for having an "obsession" with SD (Post 207).) Something doesn't feel right with his push on SafetyDance and then backing off of it. Post 519 seems odd, too... Meh.

I didn't criticize SD for having a scumread on NS. I did, however, criticize him for voting popp for association to NS.

We've since clarified that the string of posts is really just his playstyle.

I think calling out ac was justified, since he was supposed to post right then, and he didn't appear to be online.

When I focused on SD when I was responding to you, I was trying to get you/people in general to look at and vote for my scumread. As I recall, that's what town's supposed to do, get scum lynched by convincing others that they're scum.

Calling GM for the obsession was a joke, because they're obviously familiar from past games.

I'll need more details regarding 519, but many of my suspicions there have now been shot down, which segues into my next post...

[Edosurist]

Before I start anything else too, the progression from 535 to 540 via 537 is really awkward, like there's some other association between ac and popp.

Also, ac, sorry about getting your name wrong, but I don't see a reason to get so fussy about it...
>.>
<.<
<clears throat>

[implosion]

Hello. Today is basically the last day that I have any work until spring break next week. I'll try to say something about Edosurist in the near future.

[ac1983fan]

Also, ac, sorry about getting your name wrong, but I don't see a reason to get so fussy about it...

It's nothing personal
honestly I'm just trying to be as ridiculous as possible because if nothing else I want people to be entertained by me

[Edosurist]

Apozzle - I'm sorry I ever doubted you.

Belisarius - I've changed my read on him because his play is strikingly like mine, though I'll admit 538 disappointed me because I was hoping that he'd have some more thoughts.

SD - I don't like his reactions to cases against him, and the way he tosses around his vote. It looks like he's trying to get it to stick places.

ac

1983

fan - I read him as town during the night phase, but the ac-popp discussion caught my attention (I'll explain this tomorrow. It's getting late here so I'm trying to wrap this up)

HD - I'd like to see more from him. He's not looking very proactive right now. Also, the last times I've seen someone replace in with a post like HD's, they flipped scum... just saying.

popp - Much of what popp's said has matched my train of thought, but the way he backed off of ac so quickly and awkwardly bugs me, see above.

NS - I'm still against his lynch. I don't want to waste a lynch on him

Everyone else falls under various levels of towniness.

@ac
That was supposed to reference 398... lol

[ac1983fan]

@ac
That was supposed to reference 398... lol

My bad Mr. E

[Zaicon]

@Zaicon You vote for Edosurist, but your case seems to be focused on what you don't like about his play. Could you clarify why doing these things make him scummy?

To put it simply, I'm calling his motivation of these actions into question. I'll go into details at a later time.

As for my questions, is the same as most questions I ask, to help me understand people's stances and ideas they're presenting so I can get a better read.
Though why was that a semi-edit, when the other semi-edits were to do with Cub's death?

The questions look like mine did when I was scum... I can't really push that, but those questions don't seem like the same type of questions town normally asks.

As for the semi-edit, they were done at different times. Yours was done shortly after I finished drafting the post, while the ones about Cub's death were done shorty before I posted it.

I'll be honest, my reads in this game are almost always 90% gut because I kind of, frankly, am one of the worst mafia players ever.

I have a scum-finding record of about 1-7 (that is, out of the last 3-4 games, I've correctly found 1 scum). However, I'm not going to use that as an excuse for my play. I'm not going to call it scummy, but you can at least try.

There, is that a thorough enough explanation @Zaicon? Like I said, mostly just gut/I kind of suck but I try.

Yes, I did like it.

I'll respond to the rest after I get back from class.

[Zaicon]

I didn't criticize SD for having a scumread on NS. I did, however, criticize him for voting popp for association to NS.

But you did claim that SD had a scumread on NS, although SD never actually claimed that.

I think calling out ac was justified, since he was supposed to post right then, and he didn't appear to be online.

As you wish.

When I focused on SD when I was responding to you, I was trying to get you/people in general to look at and vote for my scumread. As I recall, that's what town's supposed to do, get scum lynched by convincing others that they're scum.

Based on this sentence:

Zaicon, you see popp's reaction as scummy, but don't you also see what SD did?

It looks like you acknowledge my claim and then direct my attention to SD's action. You don't address anything

I

claimed, just directed my attention to SD's play.

Calling GM for the obsession was a joke, because they're obviously familiar from past games.

I see.

NS - I'm still against his lynch. I don't want to waste a lynch on him

Out of curiosity, when

do

you think it is a good idea to go after (active) lurkers? I'm not calling for his lynch, but since you mentioned it, I would like to know the answer.

[SafetyDance]

Cheery Dog

The only thing I really have to comment on is his goodmorning vote. I can't really say what's wrong with it, but it seems off. He unvotes GM in Post 453 due to a GM-town post, but soon afterwards says that he is willing to go right back on GM due to the deadline (and repeats that when he actually does move his vote back). I suppose the issue is that I have no idea why he voted for Apozzle in post 453, since his reasoning in that post no longer applied (according to his vote) soon afterwards.

Let me help you. He says this:

You being whiteknighted doesn't help me get a read on you or your attackers though.
(it has given me a goodmorning town read, but that's besides the point)

A day later, BAM!:

Oh, @Zai: I try to avoid going too in depth on reasoning unless nobody else sees what I am talking about. I don't want scums stealing my precious points.

How does this help?
UNVOTE: VOTE: goodmorning

He picks one thing on the wall to criticise and immediately his town-read is reneged.
Distances from the wagon here:

I see town in this post, but the battle with GM and POPP is making the game rather unreadable in terms of everyone else, but as someone that would like to see a scum lynch day 1 (and perferrbly every othe day as well), I think I'll still unvote and hope these rivaliers don't distract tomorrow.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Apozzle

But get's back on it here:

I guess that means I better go back to GM then.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Goodmorning

I will look over Susan in the time we have before deadline though, there's a chance I may be willing to try that.

With only the deadline approaching used as an excuse, in fact that's all his play entailed between the Apozzle (who's town) vote and GM.

A lot to answer for I think.

I voted Apozzle because I had thought he was also probable town and the way in which GM claimed made me think GM was town, Apozzle was my next biggest scumread, which I realise I never went into full detail of that read (and there's no point doing it now since he's confirmed mason and therefore town - but basically the stuff I was questioning him on in 378).

Ah, no, there's every reason for you to explain yourself and your reads. That's how we gauge whether or not you're telling the truth.

~More on pie tonight, I have to go