/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Faraday]

Day 2, Votecount 6

Vi (3) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum, Tammy

Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Empire, Vi, OhGodMyLife, Tierce

WickedestJr (3) - Shadoweh, Nachomamma8, Konowa
Konowa (2) - Deasvail, Llamarble
Deasvail (1) - Wickedestjr

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

• With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 21st of March at 11:15pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-21 19:15:44)
  
• Tierce and Nachomamma8 are V/la

#TOPOFPAGEAGAINFUCKYEAH

[Tammy]

Tammy, Konowa already beat it to me as the main thing is the slide off of CTD. CTD is certainly savvy enough to have dropped a subtle hint and Shadoweh catching it (or a team mate catching it + daytalk) would make her line of play feel very natural to me.

But is the nature of the attack in the first place something you would expect from scum on perceived town? Or Shadoweh!scum on perceived town? The reason why I thought they were distancing is because the nature of her attack reminded me of when she replaced into Otherworld and went after her partner. But, him being traitor pretty much got rid of that suspicion. I did find the slide off of CTD when the wagon started to build to be suspicious, but why even bother starting the argument if you're not going to see it through?

[Tammy]

Obviously I looked for one, 'marble. Not sure why you'd assume I hadn't.

Vi: In ADwD I thought my team's traitor was town right up to when he was lynched (and originally thought he flipped traitor for the other team). I guess I can't prove that I missed Johhog breadcrumbing a PR here, but my ability to read subtle hints is provably awful. Besides, if he did wouldn't you be able to find it too now?

1) Don't call me Vi.
2) I didn't want to be needlessly negative but daytalking scum buddy did seem more likely from the get-go.
3) As for me being able/unable to find it, scum being an informed minority seems relevant here. I know of traitors on westeros leaving clues simply by making a post that groups all the scum together semi-conspicuously.

But traitors on westeros flip innocent not traitor, so they can do things like that without there being a trail when they flip. (And the last time I remember someone doing that, the entire scum team missed that hint.) But, here they flip traitor, so I wouldn't expect him to leave a strong trail.

[Tammy]

Empire - I know you're voting CES, but why are you scum reading him? Also, what's your read on Vi?

The CES vote is largely PoE. As far as their argument is concerned, honestly, I think both of them come off pretty badly:

- On the one hand, CES trying to push a weird almost BoP-type argument against Vi today is kinda shitty considering the general suspicion Johhog drew despite both his and your posts. A ton of people suspected him regardless, and unless you think a ton of people were just posturing about it, I don't really think ignorance of Johhog's softclaim is any kind of scumtell. Also, I know Vi doesn't read large portions of the game D1 in detail (for example, I remember Vi telling me after Castle Zar that he didn't really read any of MoI's posts) so him missing something like that doesn't seem farfetched to me.

- On the other hand, Vi pushing the whole "he hasn't really looked at anyone else angle" in #847 is pretty awful if you know anything about the way CES plays. Dude's pretty much one of the tunnel-iest people I've played with so him focusing almost exclusively on Vi is really CES just being CES, nothing alignment indicative -- Vi's played with him even more than I have so I just find that argument really weak. I don't know much about CES's scum meta (every time I've tried to metagame him it just ends horribly) but the idea that CES was trying to absolve himself of responsibility seems kind of ridiculous. CES can get away with a lot of things regardless of his alignment so I don't think he'd try a cop out kind of play like that as scum. My read on Vi is still very much TBD and I want to go through his meta one more time when I'm feeling better.

Okay, same page pretty much. There are little bits of things that look good for each of them and points about their suspicion of each other that don't make sense to me. Like I like Vi's semi-self-meta about not really reading and not picking up on johhog's crumb and that being a town tell for him. I also like his thinking the scum team would be four, and I dislike CES's push that the scum team was most likely three and that Vi was trying to sow confusion about the size of the scum team. Which doesn't really make sense to me at all as I think a scum team would be more likely to argue the scum team was smaller than it actually is not larger; I don't even know if I'm making sense about that right now. Anyway, it's a point that bugs me especially now that we have a traitor flip, which makes the scum team most likely to be three. But CES is being pretty forthcoming with his thoughts and answering questions which makes me think favorably of him somewhat and makes some of Vi's points about his play and helpfulness rather odd. In short, I really don't know what to think about either of them right now, so halp.

[Konowa]

I wasn't referring to Shadoweh's slide off of CTD (I don't think that would make any sense as an argument since she wouldn't know his alignment regardless of alignment) but rather CTD's slide off of Shadoweh which I think makes more sense sense CTD would've known Shadoweh's alignment ifScum. I'm definitely going off the top of me head but I remember CTD still talking about Shadoweh as Scum but ignoring her.

I'm interested in why CES took what I said as what he said.

[Tammy]

Oh sorry. In Post 103 he makes sure to follow up with Ben why he called CES scum. Benmage had previously called both Empire and CES scum in Post 42 without any reasoning for either, so why is CES the only one that wicked mentions? (He also does a similar thing with wondering why Tierce thinks N is scum in Post 248)

Benmage singled out two players as scum very early on (page 2ish). His scumread on CES came after just one post from him;

We won't.

Vote: penguin

That's a pretty significant page 2 stance for Benmage based on hardly anything. There's nothing unusual about my question.

It wasn't a slam dunk, he's scum tell, just something to note if either of you ever flip mafia. My point about it was he called two people scum with no reasoning, but you only asked about ces. I see your point of him calling him scum based on one post, so at least that's more clear.

[Tammy]

Tammy also looks like scum as of the latest pass.

Whoops! You dropped your ball in the end zone; time for another pass. >_>

[Tammy]

Okay my Wicked town read is coming back. Why is there a wagon on him again?

I don't like his vote on DV though.

I wasn't referring to Shadoweh's slide off of CTD (I don't think that would make any sense as an argument since she wouldn't know his alignment regardless of alignment) but rather CTD's slide off of Shadoweh which I think makes more sense sense CTD would've known Shadoweh's alignment ifScum. I'm definitely going off the top of me head but I remember CTD still talking about Shadoweh as Scum but ignoring her.

I'm interested in why CES took what I said as what he said.

I don't know how likely this is either. If either one of them ever flipped, the other would look terrible. And if I, who isn't that strong of a mafia player, knows not to do something like this, why would CTD who is as CES said tricksy? He does say "Your case against me is terrible and your quality of scumhunting/post count ratio is abysmal. Please let me know if you're planning on continuing to tunnel me so I can ignore you for the time being. Kthxbai." in Post 425 though. Is that what you're referring to? If he is tricksy and he knows what looks suspicious, could he just as easily behave that way to make a fake connection?

Although there's something bothering me about CES's theory, but I can't put my finger on it. I need to think about it.

[Konowa]

Made me look it up.

522 and 551, the "you are clearly paying alot of attention" shtick.

[Konowa]

unvote;

[Tammy]

Made me look it up.

522 and 551, the "you are clearly paying alot of attention" shtick.

Oh his comments to Nacho about Shadoweh.

paranoid webs.

Empire - what are your current reads on Shadoweh/Nacho?

[Tammy]

Okay I just reread ctd and I think what I thought I saw was nothing, but I'd still like empires input.

Also I agree that his attack on johhog for voting ces looks suspic ions.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well yeah, CTD was scum. If you actually believe the silly chainsaw defense accusation, then I must ask you why CTD would feel the need to defend from Johhog in any way.

and I dislike CES's push that the scum team was most likely three and that Vi was trying to sow confusion about the size of the scum team.

That's really not the accusation. I don't think Vi was trying to do anything anti-town, she just made the safe/standard play of going with what had already been said.

@Konowa, not sure why you're interested as your wording was simply ambiguous.

[Vi]

and I dislike CES's push that the scum team was most likely three and that Vi was trying to sow confusion about the size of the scum team.

That's really not the accusation. I don't think Vi was trying to do anything anti-town, she just made the safe/standard play of going with what had already been said.

As opposed to the WiLd and WaCkY play of saying there were five! #YOLO

Like, I want to type some snarky response here about disclaimers on every post, but I can't bring myself to do it because of how abjectly stupid this point is. I partly blame my mystification that people are actually assuming CES is arguing in good faith here.

[Shadoweh]

I wasn't referring to Shadoweh's slide off of CTD (I don't think that would make any sense as an argument since she wouldn't know his alignment regardless of alignment) but rather CTD's slide off of Shadoweh which I think makes more sense sense CTD would've known Shadoweh's alignment ifScum. I'm definitely going off the top of me head but I remember CTD still talking about Shadoweh as Scum but ignoring her.

It was more like he was telling me I was dumb for attacking him. The scum tell from it is a fair accusation to make since he was avoiding placing a read on me. I'm pretty sure he was just legit annoyed at my case, they tend to bother the shit out of scum in the wrong reasons way. "You are clearly paying attention." is just a way to sarcastically dismiss someone.

I also have no idea why CES thinks he is Vi, I'm pretty sure Vi pointed out some stuff that I was replying to? Insomnia makes me bad at reading (and I fell asleep twice while making this post) but yes. Actually now that I've had a chance to read over Wicked's reply he seems both a little sensical and in good humor. If I were to get involved in this 1 vs 1 that people seem happy to watch I'd be in favor of lynching Vi, but I really dislike how one-dimensional this is.

[DeasVail]

I am busy over the next day or so, but will be more active after that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Like, I want to type some snarky response here about disclaimers on every post, but I can't bring myself to do it because of how abjectly stupid this point is. I partly blame my mystification that people are actually assuming CES is arguing in good faith here.

You already admitted previously that you were basing it on what had been said in thread, so don't talk to me about disclaimers. Do you deny that you'd make that play as scum?

I also have no idea why CES thinks he is Vi, I'm pretty sure Vi pointed out some stuff that I was replying to? Insomnia makes me bad at reading (and I fell asleep twice while making this post) but yes. Actually now that I've had a chance to read over Wicked's reply he seems both a little sensical and in good humor. If I were to get involved in this 1 vs 1 that people seem happy to watch I'd be in favor of lynching Vi, but I really dislike how one-dimensional this is.

All Vi has said recently is describing you in terms of food. It was definitely a response to me.

[Vi]

Vi: In ADwD I thought my team's traitor was town right up to when he was lynched (and originally thought he flipped traitor for the other team). I guess I can't prove that I missed Johhog breadcrumbing a PR here, but my ability to read subtle hints is provably awful. Besides, if he did wouldn't you be able to find it too now?

The second sentence looked like something I should glance over sometime but the other two sentences made no sense to me, and CES said you meant him, so etc.

I'm overdue for taking a serious look at this game, which ideally will happen by or before tomorrow night. You in particular can help me along by elaborating on this--

If I were to get involved in this 1 vs 1 that people seem happy to watch I'd be in favor of lynching Vi,

but I really dislike how one-dimensional this is.

--

You already admitted previously that you were basing it on what had been said in thread, so don't talk to me about disclaimers. Do you deny that you'd make that play as scum?

I deny I would make that post at all as scum, but the weight of that point assumes that people have any direction at all on how to read me so etc.

*snide remark about how incredibly stupid your point is and how people don't see that because I don't even know why goes here* <- smiley

[Empire]

@mod--Going to be V/LA until Monday, the 18th because I'm going to be out of town (to Orlando) for the weekend. I should be able to get some phone posts in but no guarantees. Sorry for the inconvenience.

There's a lot of stuff I want to respond to before I go, though, so I'll write it up some time today.

[Empire]

Ok so I can't sleep and I'm way too addicted to this stupid game so you're getting the post way earlier than expected.

I didn't really "push" anything. It's a fairly minor scum tell and it seemed like a nice thing to have accompanying my vote.

I didn't even care enough to check if my memory of events was correct.

It certainly seems like a push considering it's been the focal point of the Day's conversation. Re: the underlined, how much of a damn would you have given about it as scum? Also, I tried looking through CTD's ISO and literally could not figure out what could possibly have been a crumb (and evidently, you couldn't either) so assuming he signaled Shadoweh in some way seems weird to me (Q: are scum typically told whether a traitor exists or no?). I don't know what good traitor play is on this site, but it seems equally plausible that CTD just tried to cut himself off from any ties to the mafia since traitor seems like the most expendable member of the team.

Like, CES is obnoxious and tunnels as Town, but

not to this extent

. You played in Tierce's game too, etc.

Uhh, doesn't this prove my point? He spent pretty much all of that game tunneling me to the complete exclusion of anyone else until I was forced to claim. His vote being the "least meaningful" is basically the same argument as the accountability stuff since the only scum motivation I can see for putting a meaningless vote down is to avoid accountability and I don't think CES really gives a shit about that stuff regardless of alignment. In Revolution Mafia, he basically spent most of his early game tunneling Fate (a player who isn't exactly easy to mislynch), leading the charge on that wagon.

Empire - what are your current reads on Shadoweh/Nacho?

If I had to guess on Shadoweh, I'd say I'm leaning town on her though I'm still largely taking the same "wait-and-see" approach as before. I think Nacho's town, I'll go into this read in more detail when I get back, but basically I think he gives way too much of a shit about the game and he seems more involved than in his emotionless, detached scum games (the hardcore defense of N in particular read as genuine on a reread + the wallpost, though looking at Always On, he's capable of :effort: as scum -- need to break down that post in more detail later). Bonus: I reread Wicked and I think I agree that he's town, but that's mostly based on his self meta about his scum competency (particularly in #873) which adds a bit more dimension to his earlier attitude that he was struggling with the game. A quick look at this game does suggest that he is pretty capable of scum so I don't think he's faking the whole struggling bit.

[Empire]

522 and 551, the "you are clearly paying alot of attention" shtick.

Eh, rereading those posts in context, I don't think those were signals, more likely rhetoric employed solely to discredit Nacho. Only thing that is kind of weird is the mention of Nacho in #738, which seems a bit gratuitous.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It certainly seems like a push considering it's been the focal point of the Day's conversation. Re: the underlined, how much of a damn would you have given about it as scum?

Check my posts following me making that point - one fluffy cohere/coherent post and I point out it was based on a misreading the very next post. I think I would've cared at least a little bit about not looking hypocritical as scum.

Also, I tried looking through CTD's ISO and literally could not figure out what could possibly have been a crumb (and evidently, you couldn't either) so assuming he signaled Shadoweh in some way seems weird to me (Q: are scum typically told whether a traitor exists or no?). I don't know what good traitor play is on this site, but it seems equally plausible that CTD just tried to cut himself off from any ties to the mafia since traitor seems like the most expendable member of the team.

I agree it doesn't sound too plausible but neither does Shadoweh's version of events, so I see no reason to discount it. (A: no.)

[Empire]

Unvote

Man, fuck this. I'll reread this again when I come back and hopefully find a vote I can feel some confidence in.

[Benmage]

Empire, vote vi.

[Llamarble]

Arrgh! My post was eaten. I will properly rewrite it because I am trying to regain my perfectionism.

UNVOTE: Llamarble

Do go on.

Get back on.

'Marble, with me!

Empire, vote vi.

These posts all bugged me because I didn't feel the attitudes / pushes behind them matched up with the forcefulness of language.

Why we should be lynching Konowa today

Konowa is not incisive this game. Compared to mini 1410, he is finding things to say instead of digging for scum.

Usually X: "Y is obvtown" -> Y: "That doesn't make sense" means X is scum.
Konowa, were you thinking of 1410 when you said you felt you were reading better early lately?
I still believe "I think I'm getting better at early reads" is a legit immediate followup thought, but I can make it fit in my mind with Konowascum now.
It is an excuse for a questionable-looking action, and if a scum is going to have a thought -> followup thought pair the followup idea being an excuse makes sense.
Konowa's later further elaboration is dicey too.

Got the job!

Anyways, short post short since I still have to work tonight. Empire asked awhile ago for reasoning (these will be short, so bite me).

penguin - Dissonance between 291 and 447. The whole "champion" bit at the end of 447 also comes across as BoP (I know not the -right- term, but close enough to what I mean).
Johhog - His play has been allkillernofiller. Nothing is coming across as someone trying to find alignment, moreso questions seem to be leading "Why are you [Empire] playing different", for example.
Wicked - Initially, I said if penguin then Wicked (I still think this read 480) , and later revised to he can go regardless. 484 made me throw up in mouth a little. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but listing right people and saying scum is in there? Saying that CES is in that group but that he always finds him Mafia so he's untouchable, I don't understand the need as Town today that. Then the softball request for views on DV and Nacho with lack of follow through. Seems like a complete swing and a miss of a post.

These little bites of reasoning all are things scum notice and use. And jamming scumreads / reasons together closely (think CTD) suggests the reads do not differ in importance to him, which is more often true for scum.

Konowa's scumreads have also been of the easy / popular / flipping town type.

I can't figure out CES / Vi / Benmage yet and I don't think anyone else has claimed to for strong enough reasons / with sufficient conviction to sway me.
Neither CES nor Vi are pushing on the other with forcefulness / casemaking enough to make me feel they really believe in lynching the other.
I guess that can mean bussing, but both are still playing good games if scum IMO. I imagine a scum lives in CES / Vi / Benmage but I'm still not ready to lynch there.
Let's lynch Konowa.