/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Nachomamma8]

thank you guys for not posting a shit ton
<3

[Faraday]

Day 2, Votecount 9

Vi (3) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum, Tammy

Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Vi, OhGodMyLife, Tierce, Llamarble

WickedestJr (3) - Shadoweh, Nachomamma8, Konowa
Konowa (1) - Deasvail
Deasvail (1) - Wickedestjr

Not voting (1) :

Empire

• With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 21st of March at 11:15pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-21 19:15:44)
  
• Empire and Nachomamma8 are V/la

Searching for Konowa replacement, still

Prodding Benmage and Wickedestjr.

[Benmage]

Sorry guys, ended up moving this weekeend, with rugby stpatty etc mafia had a backburner.

[Tammy]

Okay so my continued thoughts on vi. I was kinda hoping that one of you people who I trust to be town could just direct me here. I still don't know what to make of vi pretty much refusing to get his own read on me. I don't know what someone else's thought process not working on me has to do with my alignment. That kind of statement just sounds like "my thought process isn't the type of thought process that will make you agree with me" which I still don't see what that means for my alignment. It almost feels like the not really giving the opinion is leaving an opening to change at will later, but I don't think, or just hope, he's not sloppy like that as scum. I may not be as cocky as my obvtownnesss as empire or tierce, but I'm fairly readable and have played with vi, so it just feels odd. And now I really feel completely self-centered.

Oh and vi can you link me to a scum (or mafia) game that is not you as a hydra? And ideally not one in which you spammed the game in latin or in what I can only assume is Harry potter fan fiction? Oh and maybe something other than experimental mafia?

I kinda liked his response about penguin alien in Post 743. But I also don't know about this, he didn't show this kind of second guessing himself in castle zar with mehdi when he started looking kinda townish at the end of day, so Hrm. I want to believe him that he just didn't realize the crumb, but his first posts at start of day could easily be faked attempts at town tells, so yeah I don't know here.

His points against ces in Post 784 are just weak. In trying to find a ces scum game, I came across a game where both ces and vi were together as town. Think empire was in it too, and he tunneled in that game pretty hard. The language used is pretty bad too. The "he deliberately" part concerning the votes is just bad and the accountability thing is just wrong. Not to mention his own day one push make up the same exact people as ces, minus himself of course. And he points out the llamarble thing (when he had the big wagon) but didn't note that he was one of the first to move off and say there was something there.

I still think that the exchange in Post 786 feels weird as I don't see suggesting he didn't notice the soft claim and is evidence of not diligence scumhunting and simultaneously claiming that he belongs to the same scum team that,killed him for his claim. Unless he's talking about the suspicion yesterday? My heads spinning. But I hate the "oh, so you killed johhog". It feels off to me for some reasons. Post 800 is just wrong. Sure, benmage voted first but it was the wagon he had been pushing yesterday, so meh. I don't know, I think I've already gone over what is just bugging me about some of the ces push.

That is also evident in the wagon analysis. I don't get the wagon analysis especially for non flipped people and is jut looks premature and like busy work. I don't get the point of going after the llamarble wagon especially. And to come to the determination that ces is the obvious scum on those wagons, looks like a determination was made beforehand and the evidence is being trotted out now to prove what was already planned or believed. First big wagons can easily be completely town. In mafia behind the maiden I was the first major wagon, and iirc there was not one scum on that wagon. In fact, I think of the major pushes against me that game, it was always by town. And scum scumhunted the wagon. The effort looks somewhat townish but I've known scum to do that exact thing to look town before, so not ready to call it town when the whole thing just keeps pointing at the same person being guilty especially when it looks predetermined.

But then there are posts like Post 888 where he seems genuinely annoyed, and the continual referencing the town tell, and little snippets about his scum play read somewhat genuine. The lack of consistency in near back to back posts reads somewhat townish, and again would be somewhat sloppy for scum.

In short I don't really know. I feel like I would be reading vi as town if it weren't for the thing with ces. And not because I think ces looks so super town, but because some of the points he's arguing are just pretty bad. But I don't see some of ces' points on vi either, though ces' points don't make my head crinkle up the way vi's do.

So, yeah, that was a lot of read through to come to the "I dunno" conclusion. Maybe after I read through a scum game for both of them I'll have a better handle. I'll just be super surprised if they're both town here, though it's not out of the question I guess fe them both to be scum and pulling the double bus. And if only one of them is scum, I think it might be ces except for when I think of him insisting on his town tells cuz that kind of thing gets to me.

I'm going to sleep. I'll read over konowa and ctd tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Oh and empire some of this, a lot, is here for your feedback. Is there anything I'm overlooking, focusing on that's irrelevant or downright silly?

[Tammy]

Ebwop: and if only one of them is scum, I think it might be vi...

[DeasVail]

Oh yeah, the comments on the town-ness of her play was another thing I liked about Vi recently.

And, my non-townreads need to post more.

[Nachomamma8]

OGML what happened to benmage?

If you mean why did I take my vote off of Benmage, I think my post explained that pretty well. I'd still like to see him hang.

"everyone is whining at me"
shit you found in CTD's posts
I can't just get my blood pumping for those reasons, sorry.

I think it means Llamarble is more likely to be town. Is there something wrong with my logic here? How is this not relevant?

If you mean good cases and good observations, that's fine. If you mean something else which I feel like you do, then I have no idea what you mean.

And I haven't said anything along the lines of "I'm behind" in half of my posts. Nice misrep.

"I'm behind" or "I'm busy" seems to be an underlying theme in at least 8 posts.

This is a terrible terrible point. Are you serious here? Firstly, I NEVER said I was lost. I said I was struggling in post 254, yet still managed to take several stances. Secondly, the contradiction you imply here is absolute bs, considering post 484 came after twice as many posts as post 254. Struggling on page 11 means I should also be struggling on page 20? No way. Come on now.

You weren't lost, but after 484 you immediately dropped back into the lost persona; you brought up a lot of new suspects after 484, but didn't really follow up on any of them until the recent DeasVail vote, you just kept pushing the CTD-penguin/scum N-town mantra that we heard already.

Firstly, what Vi-scum case? Secondly, at the time I asked this question, unless there were PRs among PA/N/CTD, I very strongly believed a Vi lynch was not going to happen. There's nothing bad about that.

The Vi case was being anti-town and not normal town Vi. Meanwhile, two votes don't seem awfully hard to get, which would make the wagon as large as the N/CTD wagons. It's one thing to tell people to try harder, and another to imply they should just give up.

Sure, penguin had only made two votes, but some other players had made more. And IIRC, every player that had cast only one/two votes had at least cast one non-opportunistic vote. e.g. N.

I don't care to look back, and I doubt you do either. Attacking someone for two opportunistic votes is still weird.

Um... again, are you serious? Doesn't matter where I stand, especially in this situation ON DAY 1. If somebody's at L-2 and the time's almost up, then that somebody needs to claim. N could've been my strongest town read in my entire experience of playing mafia and I would've asked him to claim in that scenario. I could've even been in N's position and I would've claimed. It's the correct play. Worth noting that Llamarble did the exact same thing, and IIRC you completely ignored him.

Okay, fair enough on the "that's how you handle that situation". Llama's thought process was easier to follow for me. There was a "I think N is town because the style thing is generally town, but there are a lot of town people on his wagon and he's been playing like shit, so no tears from me when he dies."

Which doesn't really make sense to me at all as I think a scum team would be more likely to argue the scum team was smaller than it actually is not larger; I don't even know if I'm making sense about that right now.

Larger team makes people look for more suspects, more paranoia abounds. I was expecting a three man scumteam as well, so it doesn't seem like a strange observation to me. But I am more likely to agree with Vi that this point is stupid and people shouldn't talk about it much.

but that's mostly based on his self meta about his scum competency (particularly in #873) which adds a bit more dimension to his earlier attitude that he was struggling with the game.

I don't get a Benmage feel from him so I don't really agree that this is town.

Nacho's interactions with me and CES+Vi (in particular 841) look uniformly bad and leave me somewhat confused as to what to think here.

I have no idea how to handle either of you, although you seem more approachable recently. How do you think I should approach you two?

I don't doubt that Vi can fake her town tone. Just look at her points against me. There's not a hint of analysis to be found in them; it's closer to a rejection of thought.

I would imagine that it would be easier for Vi to fake her tone as opposed to fake analysis.

Tammy, I am going to look over your Vi walls tomorrow or later than tomorrow.

[Llamarble]

Tammy, I don't think looking at wagons in a difficult game is unreasonable town behavior at all.
And my wagon was probably the most useful D1 wagon unless the N slot turns out to actually have been scum.
"Oh so you killed johhog" isn't an outrageous reaction.
CES' you should've read Johhog more closely point is eh; not sure missing things is very alignment telling.

CES, I reread Vi a bunch of times today; I'd have no objection to agreeing with you if I could get to the same place.
I just don't see Viscum at the moment whereas I can see youscum, though I'll admit it's not overwhelming.
I also don't see N, which is unfortunate because I'm sure if yesterday was wagon vs CW lots of stuff would fall out of that. Nacho and Shadoweh are maybes.

Maybe CES and Vi should just both claim to give the rest of us more data.
Bedtime.

[Llamarble]

Tammy, I don't think looking at wagons in a difficult game is unreasonable town behavior at all.
And my wagon was probably the most useful D1 wagon unless the N slot turns out to actually have been scum.
"Oh so you killed johhog" isn't an outrageous reaction.
CES' you should've read Johhog more closely point is eh; not sure missing things is very alignment telling.

CES, I reread Vi a bunch of times today; I'd have no objection to agreeing with you if I could get to the same place.
I just don't see Viscum at the moment whereas I can see youscum, though I'll admit it's not overwhelming.
I also don't see N, which is unfortunate because I'm sure if yesterday was wagon vs CW lots of stuff would fall out of that. Nacho and Shadoweh are maybes.

Maybe CES and Vi should just both claim to give the rest of us more data.
Bedtime.

[Vi]

Oh and vi can you link me to a scum (or mafia) game that is not you as a hydra? And ideally not one in which you spammed the game in latin or in what I can only assume is Harry potter fan fiction? Oh and maybe something other than experimental mafia?

Otters vs. Tigers vs. Sharks, aka "what do you mean I can't bus my whole team" IIRC. Since a lot of that game died in the crash, that leaves DEFCON 3.0, which was one of many games I'd just as soon not see resurface due to the extreme badness therein. Please see wiki etc.

That is also evident in the wagon analysis.

I don't get the wagon analysis especially for non flipped people and is jut looks premature and like busy work.

So this is the part where you stop talking until you tell me that one of those blue reads is scum. Otherwise, despite however you may feel about this, what you're saying is unfounded.

With that said, quickly looking at Maf.Maiden you are correct - you were the first person to get six votes and they were all from Town. With that said
*this was an L-1 wagon
*there were no counterwagons and it was the closest this game ever got to passing for activity that wasn't 36 hours before deadline (which we're going toward again)

And he points out the llamarble thing (when he had the big wagon) but didn't note that he was one of the first to move off and say there was something there.

This is easy to do for Town points.

I still think that the exchange in Post 786 feels weird as I don't see suggesting he didn't notice the soft claim and is evidence of not diligence scumhunting and simultaneously claiming that he belongs to the same scum team that,killed him for his claim. Unless he's talking about the suspicion yesterday? My heads spinning. But I hate the "oh, so you killed johhog". It feels off to me for some reasons.

I'd like to explain but this first sentence isn't in a grammatical structure I can understand.

---

Honestly the thing that worries me most about this is the insistence that there

must

be one scum between me and CES. Regardless of how I feel about the Dutchie, being forced into a situation where it's possible that both of us are Town and the lynch is just kind of ~decided~ to be between one of us for vague reasons ("well they're the ones arguing, and it's taken up the whole day [because literally half the game isn't posting], and when two people go after each other all the time like this is must be TownVscum") is setting off giant red fireworks.

This plus the fact that it takes seven people to lynch and we have seven people posting

Benmage,

Cogito Ergo Sum, Deasvail,

Empire,

Konowa,

Llamarble,

OhGodMyLife,

Nachomamma8, Shadoweh, Tammy,

Tierce,

Vi,

Wickedestjr

is doing nothing for my confidence, not least because even if they were here I don't know if it would be more than "uh, game's hard, I'm just going to vote here". Swap Empire for Nacho depending on whose shift it is.

Also I'd like to bring this up again since I found it while looking for who I need to hate for the above--

It's also in my opinion unlikely that the day would be centered around this debate if you were both town, surely the scum would be shopping around for less high-profile and talkative targets to be blamed for lynching.

Because scum are subconsciously aware that they are pushing two townies and are unable to keep a straight posting face about it. That really doesn't seem to be happening here, there's a tenseness in the air. At least that's what I think. (I don't really want a Wicked wagon anyways and no one else is interested so okay.)

Yes scum push mislynches, but they tend to flinch and I find it unusual that so many people would JUST go for you/CES.

Vi (3)

- Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum, Tammy
Cogito Ergo Sum (4) -

Empire,

Vi,

OhGodMyLife, Tierce

WickedestJr (3) -

Shadoweh,

Nachomamma8, Konowa
Konowa or DeasVail (3) - Deasvail,

Llamarble,

Wickedestjr

Okay, so if there are Definitely scum pushing one of the two major wagons here, which one is it?

Hmm let me think.

(Actually if you think me and OGML are scum, that kind of backfires, doesn't it.)

Orange name is there to prove a point - you're doing exactly what you're saying you think scum would do. Whether this is you admitting to being scum or you admitting your own philosophy is etc.

At this point I think I'm just being bitter in a vague general direction.

[Vi]

Nacho's interactions with me and CES+Vi (in particular 841) look uniformly bad and leave me somewhat confused as to what to think here.

I have no idea how to handle either of you, although you seem more approachable recently. How do you think I should approach you two?

How about "a way that isn't scummy as hell".

But Shadoweh being the maybe maybe scumread for both of you

[Vi and CES]

is interesting.

This is bullshit.

When that towntell is based on NK analysis, I tend to cringe a little bit.

This is denying the obvious under a buzzword.

Who is your current scumteam pick?
Vi, same thing to you.

This not only doesn't relate to the quote that it's under, but a

scumteam

pick is ludicrous, especially if you're going to follow up with "but how can they be on a team?".

Still feeling fine with a Wicked lynch, but I want to focus a lot more on CES-Vi today.

See comment in previous posts.

I don't doubt that Vi can fake her town tone. Just look at her points against me. There's not a hint of analysis to be found in them; it's closer to a rejection of thought.

I would imagine that it would be easier for Vi to fake her tone as opposed to fake analysis.

Tammy, I am going to look over your Vi walls tomorrow or later than tomorrow.

And this is you positioning yourself to be on your wagon. I'm tempted to tell you to vote me and get it over with since that's clearly where you're going with this.

[Vi]

Maybe CES and Vi should just both claim to give the rest of us more data.
Bedtime.

And you know what? On one hand this honestly came across as mildly offensive the first time I read it; on the other hand I think the chance of me making it to tomorrow unscathed is very low and after those last two posts I kind of want to screw over as many wrong and scummy people as I can.

I'm a 2-Shot Vanilla Cop. I was going to quote some Sherlock early on but then Tierce did it first and that was the first of many times that I lost interest in this game.

For information on who I investigated last Night and how it went see how I went from this--

Is there a reason people are ignoring Wickedestjr?

Especially with those glasses

.

and while Wickedestjr's posts feel like scum I don't have the time right now to find out what it is everyone else is seeing in him

--to this--

CES, Konowa, DV, side order of Shadoweh maybe.

After looking at Wickedestjr I found the whole thing completely boring. :/

Someone somewhere said that they agreed with me on Wickedestjr and I really have no idea how because I said literally nothing to justify my read - I didn't even bother to look at his posts in isolation to get a cover excuse.

It's not implausible for "Mafia Vanilla" to be a role in this game - I note with some amusement that I would investigate as "Vanilla", as the role returns whether someone has "Vanilla" in their role name - but I don't find that likely. If I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time I've gotten a pseudo-Miller role (and lynched for it, potentially), but I'm going to assume that Faraday didn't go to that level of "quirky role design" in this game in particular. (He totally would, just not in this game.)

So now that we've taken two wagons out of three off the table, this is the part where you start scrambling. Make my day.

[Vi]

Post 904 was not made by Wickedestjr, obviously.

[Vi]

Quintuple posting because :spite: .

[DeasVail]

Why didn't you cross off Wicked in 910?

[Vi]

No way of justifying it without the result. Plus I thought the third wagon was on Konowa and not W.jr until this morning, so I didn't think he was getting lynched anyway.

[DeasVail]

There shouldn't have been a need to justify it though?

[Vi]

I'll take

Tierce,

N,

and

Llamarble

as free Town reads. Actually reading

Empire

709 he's in the No Doubt list.
Empire vouches for

Tammy

and

DeasVail

(862). I'm politely ignoring Empire on Benmage and Nacho, the former more than the latter.

Benmage
Cogito Ergo Sum

DeasVail

Empire

Konowa

Llamarble

OhGodMyLife

Nachomamma8
Shadoweh

Tammy

Tierce

Vi

Wickedestjr

[DeasVail]

...

What I mean is it doesn't look like it would have been too hard to slip Wicked being town in there somewhere.

[Vi]

...

I had already explained at length how Tierce, N, and Llamarble were Town. At that point I moved to agree with basically everyone else on Empire. Tammy was a read Empire stood behind very strongly, and you were one that Empire explained well enough plus the aforementioned strong standing-behind.

These are all Town reads that basically no one should have a problem with.

(Except N as it turns out, but I think we've covered that at length too.)

That is the bloody point of that post.

Wickedestjr does not fit in this model.

[Faraday]

Prodding Shadoweh

[Shadoweh]

Ow, sorry, I'm about to go to work so I can't reply in bigness to Vi's hatred. (Why is it CES and you take turns between fighting to sucker punch me every time I post?)
I think I go out of my way not to point out the scummy things I'm doing as scum, but I haven't scoured myself to check it. Good to know where you want the scrambling directed to though. Not that I'm bitter. I just have one question, are you -sure- that you're a Vanilla cop that looks for the word Vanilla and not a Vanilla Cop that looks to see if someone has a role or not, ie a Mafia Goon would trigger a positive from your role as well?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

So your role is a slightly stronger (but 2-shot) version of the one in Zach's game, Vi? How much, if any, reading did you do overnight?

CES - What's the last scum game you played? Not as a hydra or a replacement. I can't find one and am tired of looking.

My westerosi scum games are actually 2 of my last 3 scum games to satisfy the criterion. I played another offsite game around the time I played 88 but I assume that doesn't help.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum
VOTE: Shadoweh

Those two wagons are bad. And no, this doesn't qualify as content, I just want to move my vote where it can lynch scum. Content will wait.