/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Untrod Tripod]

huh?

oh you were implying that I'm scum

loldongs

[Untrod Tripod]

as the great artist Juvenile once said, back that thang up

although he was talking about butts, not reads.

but really how disimilar are the two

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES, why did you say the CTD wagon was anti-town last Day?

It reminded me of the Team Mafia mislynch - just people inexplicably hating on CTD. They don't appreciate his Swissness.

[Tammy]

Tammy: Would you be upset with me if I told you I wanted to make you mad to see what would happen? Why didn't you vote me after that? O_o (Not that I don't mean what I said though. Yes, that's the part I meant as whining and no, at this moment I'm not really symphasizing with being ignored while asking other people to have opinions for you. If you're not scum then get your own? Maybe I'm jealous.)

I would say your card restriction will last a bit longer than previously envisioned. Why would I vote you after that? And more importantly why would you think I would vote you after that? If you have been reading my posts, which I'm increasingly believing you just read that one or two in which I said I wanted to sheep someone, you would know that although I've been flip flopping on you since the start of the game, the last thing I said about you was that I thought you might be town, unless I was off on my scum list and then you and/or nacho might be scum.

And you legit have not been reading my posts if you think I have no opinions of my own or that's what I'm asking for. My posts are chock full of my opinions; what I'm lacking are conclusions I feel confident in. Which is something that is not unusual for me in the first place and is probably exacerbated by the fact that there are other more pressing things on my mind which is causing me to be a little more than distracted and scattered.

You are free to comment on the opinions I do have, but that would require actually reading my posts. I'm not asking for your opinions or to sheep you because I don't trust you; I don't have a confident town read on you. I do have a confident town read on Empire and grown a bit used to bouncing ideas off of him.

The "if you're not scum, get some of your own" makes no sense at all. If I were part of the informed minority, I'd already know who the scum/town were and wouldn't feel this lost.

Do you know what makes this even worse shadoweh? Is that just a few posts ago, you crossed off 8 people as town and gave a short list of four people on your not crossed off list. Then proceeded to cross off people off your not crossed off list. So, you trust two-thirds of this game and then decided to trust some more people? And then you seriously accuse me of being to trusting and not looking for alignments?

Should I have come to the conclusion that all five people are scum? I'm not egotistical enough to assume I found the entire scum team and we can all go home before actually reading everyone in depth. The logical conclusion is that I'm wrong somewhere, but finding something concrete in a group of suspects at this point is more important to me then sussing out which town reads aren't.

You totally missed the point, and maybe if you'd actually read my posts you'd know what the point is. You claim I'm not searching for people's alignments, never mind the fact that that's all I've been doing this game. You claim that I'm too familiar or too trusting; I still don't know what you mean by that. If you were reading my posts, you would see that I had given my town reads by varying strength and looked at four people who by poe might be scum and proceeded to try to read them. I also chose two of my town reads that might be scum if I was wrong on my four by poe.

You then proceeded to do something very similar. Cross people off your list, come to four and cross off some of those. Though in the process of you doing something similar to what I did, you accused me of not searching for alignments and seeming too trusting. That's what was hypocritical.

[Tammy]

Oh and vi can you link me to a scum (or mafia) game that is not you as a hydra? And ideally not one in which you spammed the game in latin or in what I can only assume is Harry potter fan fiction? Oh and maybe something other than experimental mafia?

Otters vs. Tigers vs. Sharks, aka "what do you mean I can't bus my whole team" IIRC. Since a lot of that game died in the crash, that leaves DEFCON 3.0, which was one of many games I'd just as soon not see resurface due to the extreme badness therein. Please see wiki etc.

Thank you. Couldnt you have claimed before I read through that though?

You needed to see PookyTheMagicalBearxInternet Stranger.

Well I think my favorite part was Mina saying that her case against you could be summarized by *twitch*.

The latter part is more interesting than the former.
You must think me unnaturally dense to not keep an eye on what's going on around me whilst I pursue someone I think is scum. News flash: I'm not so single-minded and convinced that I'm right that I don't watch what other people are doing. That would require me to be a patsy for scum. I kind of hate it when that happens.

That wasn't my point. I thought it was odd that while you are arguing that ces is obvious scum, someone else said it didn't feel like a townvtown argument.

So, since you're whinging about reading through an old bad scum game before I claimed, and also trying to find reasons to call me scum, would you like to pick the kind of obvious correct side now?

That last one was a left over complaint, and I don't typically try to find reasons to call someone scum. However, sometimes they do jump in my lap and go "woof". That said I'm still paranoid of you, so I'm not going to stop trying to read you.

As far as the obvious correct side, unfortunately there isn't a side that's obvious to me. If ces looked like obvious scum to me, that wall of thoughts wouldn't have had to happen and I'd happily be on that wagon and working on footnotes with glee. (Okay footnotes are never glee-inspiring but I have a chapter to footnote format before the night is through, and just kind of wanted to whine for a second.) The wagon grew a little more tempting when Llarmarble was on it, but now he's stepped back too, not seeing it as a slam dunk scum wagon. Also the OGML and UT pushing the wagon make me nervous. Konowa was a potential scum read mostly by poe and UT hasn't posted enough to get a good read on him, though his posts that he'll be the shepherd and won't lead me astray feel like town on a gut level, but his two posts to CES right after he voted shadoweh left me unsettled. And I don't know what to think of OGML, and can't remember the flash of brilliant insight I had this morning about why he might be town was, but popping in to do nothing but "vote on ces still good" while doing nothing else doesn't make me feel better about the wagon either.

The shadoweh wagon is interesting as is her stepping it up to provide reads once Tierce started pushing for her lynch. But, the self-meta gets to me, just as your calling out your town tells gets to me, and I'm interested in what she's going to start doing now. I'm still somewhat suspicious of the interaction between CTD, and if Shadoweh does flip scum then think there could be something to CTD's statement to Nacho that he was clearly paying attention in regards to Shadoweh and him. Also, nacho's slight defending of shadoweh here and there could be something. If she's scum, which I don't feel confident in. This game is driving me insane.

[Tammy]

I messed up my quotes again, and there are minor responses in the quote box.

yolo

[Vi]

as the great artist Juvenile once said, back that thang up

although he was talking about butts, not reads.

but really how disimilar are the two

sheep me, Tammy, I'm a PRETTY COOL GUY who KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING

lynch all liars
you decide which part is the lie

---

That last one was a left over complaint, and I don't typically try to find reasons to call someone scum. However, sometimes they do jump in my lap and go "woof".

It's not

my

fault you smell like presunto.

UT hasn't posted enough to get a good read on him, though his posts that he'll be the shepherd and won't lead me astray feel like town on a gut level

But it must not be actual presunto because you appear to have indigestion (potentially research-paper induced). How are you taking it as anything other than bluster?

---

Also for Tierce - if you were referring to the order of the colors with the "wrong rainbow" comment, there's an obvious reason for why everyone is each color. Except Empire, but we have too much orange in this game. Even if that really IS an awesome avvy someone should be properly thanked for.

---

Vote: Shadoweh

(#yoLo-3)

[Untrod Tripod]

Broaaaaaaaaad strokes tamtam. You have a bad case of wordvom

[Untrod Tripod]

Also I'm loving Vi's sideways attempts to discredit me without actually calling me scum. It's cute, really.

And follow my lead tamtam, didn't you hear I'm the new pope? My gut reads are infallible

[Shadoweh]

If you have been reading my posts, which I'm increasingly believing you just read that one or two in which I said I wanted to sheep someone, you would know that although I've been flip flopping on you since the start of the game, the last thing I said about you was that I thought you might be town, unless I was off on my scum list and then you and/or nacho might be scum.

You said it awhile ago and the tone of your post implied you thought I was doing scummy shit. I wouldn't say I have a case worth sheeping but in my humble opinion it's better then what is quickly becoming a last minute power wagon on easy pickings. You're still currently voting Vi, so you aren't voting Not-Me yet. Even if you aren't confident, it's time to make a stand, at least that's what I think. (even if ironically being loud is what's contributing to this.) It sounds like you don't like the current wagons either so either look for something new for sharks to dig into or enjoy telling me to shutup in the votingest way possible.

If you look at my meta I also self-meta as town, because this conversation isn't meta enough. In truth you are correct, I didn't go into depth in your posts because after soloing the other lanes I needed to resupply. And I wanted to see your response first.

As for what I'm going to do now, I'm honestly not sure. I don't have a case to push people onto even if I were to convince people to get off me. I supose it doesn't matter, if the active posters want to throw me out then so be it. Just don't spend tomorrow lynching each other and take some pot shots at the lurkers instead.

I don't imagine it not coming up so I'm Vanilla Town. I wouldn't be half as miserable if I had the ability to shoot people after dark.

[Vi]

Also I'm loving Vi's sideways attempts to discredit me without actually calling me scum. It's cute, really.

You're scum.

Revel in this unusual clarity of speech from me.

[Untrod Tripod]

It's glorious

Also wrong

[Empire]

Still happy with my CES vote. Lets all sheep UT.

Man, this guy's a scumbag, isn't he?

Tammy, pretty sure UT fucks around like that regardless of alignment at least from what I remember of his meta so it's not a tell. I'm not sure about Shadoweh either because I do also have a soft spot for players who prefer town pointing out their own town tells and stuff but the Benmage vote feels off considering she had never really mentioned him at any point before that and her reaction to this wagon is weird -- I remember her being very explosive while getting run up as town in her other games so her being okay with getting lynched is pretty unsettling.

I thought I had a lot more to talk about but I guess not.

[Shadoweh]

I hadn't been reading Benmage before now. His posts aren't the kind of thing you're suposed to read sensibly in a row. (I've also guarenteed at least two more votes on me for my attacks on people that weren't looking at me before so go me!)
I'm not happy about it, but I don't have somewhere to explode to. In my experience it's not possible to shift a lynch without a suspect to shift it to, and somehow I don't think enough people are going to trust in my gut and switch to someone whose been the opposite of in the spotlight today.

[Nachomamma8]

In what way were my reread results predictable and why is that a bad thing?

No one's attacking Tammy, Tammy goes in town pile.
Some people are attacking Shadoweh, Shadoweh goes in the "convince me" pile.
Benmage is Benmage, so "meh" pile.
Predictable usually isn't good. You should make interesting observations, pick up on new things.

people who might have had other motives to kill Johhog (Johhog calling Empire scum)

yes because Empire is worried about Johhog calling him scum

I don't even see how my previous post set up reading Johhog, so ???.

actually might've gotten something interesting
who did you read to make post #763 and in what order?

Also I didn't call Benmage town for contributing early; I explicitly found that cause for suspicion, so ???.

You found it suspicious that Benmage's contribution petered off, correct? You did not state you found his early contributions suspicious.

Why would whether he can read me be relevant? Why is my noting my use of PoE relevant? You were my scumbuddy in a game where CES torched us, so I don't see how it's possible for you to have no notion of how I have dealt with him as scum. Why is it that mescum would jump off a wagon that was "going nicely" and then later rejoin because it seemed to be... going nicely???

I don't remember how we dealt with him in White Flag, and I don't really have time to go back and check. I'm pretty sure we hoped a few town would just fuck up and push through the completely wrong lynches, didn't bother with CES. I don't like that you went after CES for PoE because you respect him as a player a lot, I'm sure, and the whole "oh yeah let's go after him for PoE" seemed off. Why choose him first? Youscum jumps off a wagon that's starting to get going but seems like it's going to be a while before anything happens with it, jump it back on when the primary wagon pusher steps it up and you know you can get some momentum going. Why would you leave Konowa as either alignment unless you sensed that change?

Which is relevant / bad because ???

Because in the post I quoted you made a push to draw more attention to CES/Vi even though you could have pushed Konowa harder.
Also when the hell did you "settle" CES/Vi?

How so?

It's interesting because you both treated her the exact same way and I didn't expect that.

Also, nacho's slight defending of shadoweh here and there could be something.

She's a good townread of mine from yesterday. I would rather not lynch her.
I would rather lynch a little Llamarble, a little Benmage, a little CES.

[Untrod Tripod]

Tammy, pretty sure UT fucks around like that regardless of alignment at least from what I remember of his meta so it's not a tell.

if you think I'm fucking around now, just wait until you see what I do to Jenny

but seriously, self-meta revolts me, so I'll let one of these other fine upstanding sheeple let you know what my scum game looks like

[Nachomamma8]

who here knows your scumgame?

[Llamarble]

Nacho stop being dumb.
I seriously doubt the odds of you correctly guessing which of my piles Benmage and Shadoweh ended up in beforehand out of town/maybe/scum would have been all that much better than random.
Tammy, perhaps, but only because when a lot of people have come to the same conclusion, the odds of somebody else doing the same are elevated because maybe the reasons are good or at least clear etc.
I also seriously doubt there are any players in this game for which you can't go back and say 'this read and this read were predictable' for plausible sounding reasons.
If you seriously went through my ISO and found low levels of 'picking up on new things,' you need to get some rest or something.

people who might have had other motives to kill Johhog (Johhog calling Empire scum)

yes because Empire is worried about Johhog calling him scum

I mentioned this because it demonstrated what I was looking into, not because the fact that Johhog called Empire scum was a glorious revelation that determined all of my reads forever. Your comment is irrelevant. I don't like irrelevant comments that pretend to be replies.
I read most of the people I mentioned in 763, maybe a couple others, in an order I am not going to attempt to reconstruct.

Also I didn't call Benmage town for contributing early; I explicitly found that cause for suspicion, so ???.

You found it suspicious that Benmage's contribution petered off, correct? You did not state you found his early contributions suspicious.

I did not like the manner in which it petered off. I DID state that I found his contributing early suspicious:

For lynching:
Benmage - Like Darox in that he is usually scum when he appears slightly pro-town

I respect both Vi and CES. These two players insist the other is scum but neither makes a case I really follow.
Therefore I OBVIOUSLY spend a lot of time trying to figure out what is going on there. And PoE is ALWAYS important to reading hard-to-read players. I am having trouble getting strong positive scumreads -> people I would have difficulty catching as scum are more likely to be scum, so in a game where I haven't gotten into slam-dunk-mode yet a tough read from the not-townish category is a good place to look at, especially when good players want them dead.
I was unsuccessful in convincing myself fully of CESscum, so I decided to try and find clearer scum elsewhere, and Konowa was the best one.
Then Vi made some longer (good) posts so I tried again to read CES/Vi and got a sufficiently strong townread on Vi to work off of.
Your interpretation of my removing my vote from CES and putting it back is silly; why is "starting to look like something will happen but it may take a while" a state of affairs I would GAF about as scum? Whereas one day after I made my Konowa case when a vote has been REMOVED from CES, the blood is clearly in the water so I come back?

As for how we handled CES in WF, I spent a lot of time trying to lynch him. I had to work very hard to find enough votes to put together a mislynch wagon D1, then did the same thing D2 but Zachrulez defected on his Benmage vote and that was the vote I had needed to mislynch Benmage D2. I was hoping D3 the large number of scum remaining and the best / loudest townies being dead would let me / Sociopath shout down everyone who was left / hopefully you could salvage the credibility of your slot which I had spent a ton of time protecting; we would have a big lead and only need a couple townies to be wrong at that point. CES was basically town leader / our primary adversary that game, so yeah, plenty of 'dealing with CES' occurred.

[Shadoweh]

Quick votecounting says there is nothing you would call another wagon out there right now anymore. -_-

##Vote: CES

Goin to work look forward to seeing more pile-on when I get back!

[Benmage]

Now, where was that ball that I dropped? (WHEN THE HELL DID WE GET THIS!!! ) Huzzah.

[Llamarble]

As long as we lynch from the Benmage UT Shadoweh CES Nacho pool I won't be too sad, but Shadoweh looks like the way to go.
The company on the wagon is excellent and Shadoweh voting CES at this point does bode well for her flipping scum.

[Faraday]

Day 2, Votecount 11

Vi (2) - Benmage, Tammy
Cogito Ergo Sum (3) - OhGodMyLife, Untrod Tripod, Shadoweh
Untrod Tripod (1) - Deasvail
Deasvail (1) - Wickedestjr

Shadoweh (4) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Llamarble, Vi

Llamarble (1) - Nachomamma8

Not voting (1) :

Empire

• With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 21st of March at 11:15pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-21 19:15:44)
  
• No One V/la

Searching for a replacement for WickedestJr. (Unless he posts before I find one) Adding Llamafluff to the "replacement pool", since he said he wanted a mini normal and now this is normal size! Pm me once again if there's a problem. Adding Zachrulez as well.

[Nachomamma8]

I seriously doubt the odds of you correctly guessing which of my piles Benmage and Shadoweh ended up in beforehand out of town/maybe/scum would have been all that much better than random

Safe reads aren't really hard to predict, Llamarble.

not because the fact that Johhog called Empire scum was a glorious revelation

It wasn't. After you pick up on the breadcrumb, logical conclusion is "oh, someone picked up on that". Then you don't look for who might have picked up on that; instead, you look for who Johhog called scum.

I read most of the people I mentioned in 763, maybe a couple others, in an order I am not going to attempt to reconstruct.

you don't keep notes?

I did not like the manner in which it petered off. I DID state that I found his contributing early suspicious:

If you subscribe to the "Benmage scum usually looks at least a little pro-town when scum" bit, then why did you care about his contribution petering off? Shouldn't that reassure you a little bit?

and the whole Vi-CES spat started after your initial PoE vote on CES.
why did you originally try to figure out CES first when he's a hard to read player? Did you think engaging him would help improve your read?

and yeah, I'll look WF over again later because I sort of blocked that out of my memory.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

but seriously, self-meta revolts me, so I'll let one of these other fine upstanding sheeple let you know what my scum game looks like

Bad? That's really all I remember.

Deadline's tomorrow, people. Let's get some votes on Shadoweh.

[Untrod Tripod]

nacho, get on the CES wagon and we can get a real dueling wagons thing going here. you're the key, don't let me down man