Newbie 1345: Mafia in a Bind (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 2.02

Mutleyddmc (2) - NicCage, Xiao Long
Didi (1) - Mutleyddmc

Not Voting (4) - Didi, frog, MP5, Mac

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Thursday, April 18, 2013, at 5:00 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[Mac]

Some thoughts then.

I've explained why I wanted Mutley lynched. I stand by that, but in hindsight, Didi was correct that we should've let everyone talk first. That's my mistake.

Here's how I saw Didi's reaction (you aren't the only one with crazy theories!)

> Mutley hammers/admits scum/claims cop bla bla
> someone pushes for the lynch immediately (that's me)
> Scum buddy uses this to pressure the person pushing for quick lynch (that's Didi pressuring me)

So I was all for Didi being Mutley's scum buddy now, especially with the added WIFOM of Mutley calling him scum. But then he townslipped. Not sure if that's legit or scum faking but it's enough right now for me to move past him today. Although I'd be waring of taking him to LyLo right now.

frog is quite suspicious for me too, prior to Equinox confirming that Mutley had voted slimer, he was quite reluctant to vote Mutley until finding out if Mutley had hammered slimer. I found that quite suspicious, purely because Mutley had already admitted being mafia.

MP5 reads town, probably is town but again, I'm wary of Mutley WIFOMing with him by telling us not to listen to him.

NicCage is a null read at the moment, and again, Xiao

could

be scum, but I'm not sure at the minute.

[Didi]

If you think Mac is suspicious for pushing the lynch, what do you think about Xiao for putting Mutley at L-1 in such a scenario? That looks pretty scummy to me.

Also quite suspicious. But Xiao has it going for him that he bickered with Mutley all day 1, and I don't think it would be very intelligent of scum to draw so much attention to eachother, especially if you create such a toxic atmosphere with the other in the thread that the rest will be like 'goddammit let's just lynch one of them and get it over with'. Unless it's some WIFOM (am I using this right?) ploy and that's what they WANT us to think. But unlikely imo.

[frog]

frog is quite suspicious for me too, prior to Equinox confirming that Mutley had voted slimer, he was quite reluctant to vote Mutley until finding out if Mutley had hammered slimer. I found that quite suspicious, purely because Mutley had already admitted being mafia.

I was right in doing that, since it was unclear whether his post counted as a hammer or not. In retrospect it did and no votes/unvotes after that counted anyway. Should I have voted Mutley at that point?

[Mutleyddmc]

I like your theory Mac. Minus me being scum it's why I voted didi. I think the mafia knew people would come out and lynch me right away! I'd do the same! So they decided let others do that and we will use this to pressure someone and use that to lynch that person tomorrow. Winning the game.

[Mac]

frog is quite suspicious for me too, prior to Equinox confirming that Mutley had voted slimer, he was quite reluctant to vote Mutley until finding out if Mutley had hammered slimer. I found that quite suspicious, purely because Mutley had already admitted being mafia.

I was right in doing that, since it was unclear whether his post counted as a hammer or not. In retrospect it did and no votes/unvotes after that counted anyway. Should I have voted Mutley at that point?

Did it matter whether his vote hammered or not? he admitted he was maf.

[frog]

If you think Mac is suspicious for pushing the lynch, what do you think about Xiao for putting Mutley at L-1 in such a scenario? That looks pretty scummy to me.

Also quite suspicious. But Xiao has it going for him that he bickered with Mutley all day 1, and I don't think it would be very intelligent of scum to draw so much attention to eachother, especially if you create such a toxic atmosphere with the other in the thread that the rest will be like 'goddammit let's just lynch one of them and get it over with'. Unless it's some WIFOM (am I using this right?) ploy and that's what they WANT us to think. But unlikely imo.

It isn't unheard of for scumbuddies to bus one another so that one seems cleared in the eyes of the village when the other gets lynched (as happened in my 2nd game on his site), but I agree, the extent to which it was being done meant that both were under the spotlight for a long while, and this means it is unlikely. Without getting into deep WIFOM territory I don't think their interaction was a massive scum plot.

P-edit: @Mac, I suppose not, but then again, did my vote matter if he had already hammered? In a situation where there's a rules issue I'd prefer to be cautious and wait for the mod to get in. Either way, it didn't change anything.

[Mac]

The thing I don't get is, you didn't have anything to lose from it. If you voted Mutley after (like I did) then the mod would've just discounted it and moved on - it's not like we would've gained a warning. I kinda get the feeling, if you are scum, you MAY have wanted to wait and see there was a chance for your scumbuddy Mutley to survive the lynch before bussing him if there wasn't a chance.

[Xiao Long]

@Xiao - does Didi still read scum to me? Well, his play has improved today, its not as strong of a read as yesterday. How do you see him?

My read on Didi keeps changing. His activity and involvement read town to me, and some of his posts look like legitimate scumhunts. At the same time, he's really hesitant to lynch Mutley. Post 217 seems like a really convenient defense after you called him out, "Oh, I'm a clueless townie, bro. I can't be responsible for this." I'll have to wait til later in the day to get a strong read for him, but atm, he's null.

My thoughts on xiao end of day 1 were leaning town. Now though its scum.

The last post by her says its a good chance that I'm town. Why the change considering everything I've done yesterday has been scummy? The change being that she knows I'm town and is using it in some kind of defence. The fact voodoo died last night also implicates xiao to me. Xiao was always so sure she was town. Hence the killing it would seem to not implicate xiao. In my eyes however it has.

I say there is a good chance of you being town because I'm hesitant to think that scum would be as out in the open and annoying as you. At this point, I honestly don't care whether you are town or scum, my vote is all policy lynching. If that makes others think I'm scummy, so be it.
And yeah, if you can show me a post from Voodoo that reads scummy to you, then do it. Most of her posts had so much town aura, I don't see how someone could think she was anything other than.

Here's how I saw Didi's reaction (you aren't the only one with crazy theories!)

> Mutley hammers/admits scum/claims cop bla bla
> someone pushes for the lynch immediately (that's me)
> Scum buddy uses this to pressure the person pushing for quick lynch (that's Didi pressuring me)

Wouldn't this be too bold and obvious for scum, though? Seems like, if Mutley is scum, his buddy would be quite aware that he would get votes on him immediately. Wouldn't that mean he would let it happen so as not to risk his cover being blown? Or is this just some WIFOM moment I'm having?

frog is quite suspicious for me too, prior to Equinox confirming that Mutley had voted slimer, he was quite reluctant to vote Mutley until finding out if Mutley had hammered slimer. I found that quite suspicious, purely because Mutley had already admitted being mafia.

This is pretty much the only thing that really reads scummy to me as far as Frog goes. What do you think of his play in general though? To me, if I include Spadille, then Frog is scummy. If I don't, Frog himself is null.

[frog]

The thing I don't get is, you didn't have anything to lose from it. If you voted Mutley after (like I did) then the mod would've just discounted it and moved on - it's not like we would've gained a warning. I kinda get the feeling, if you are scum, you MAY have wanted to wait and see there was a chance for your scumbuddy Mutley to survive the lynch before bussing him if there wasn't a chance.

At that point, assuming that Mutley's hammer did not count, Mutley was at L-1 (L-2, you voted him, then he voted himself). Voting for him would be a hammer without a claim, not something I really advocate. I clearly

did

have a lot to lose by voting Mutley and, potentially, so did the town as well. I don't understand how my unwillingness to hammer without a claim whilst there's a rules issue makes me suspicious? If anything, doesn't the fact that you asked me to hammer Mutley under such circumstances make you look suspicious?

By the way Xiao, I replaced into Kingpin's slot, not Spadille's.

[Mutleyddmc]

Why are you asking me to find posts where voodoo was scummy? I'm just saying you were the more vocal one about it and she died. I'm sure we all thought she was town. However I'm saying as you were more vocal is that why you killed her because people wouldn't bring it back on to you?

[Xiao Long]

By the way Xiao, I replaced into Kingpin's slot, not Spadille's.

Wooooow, I'm dumb, my bad. Then you're null, leaning-town to me. I forgot it was NicCage that replaced Spadille.

Why are you asking me to find posts where voodoo was scummy? I'm just saying you were the more vocal one about it and she died. I'm sure we all thought she was town. However I'm saying as you were more vocal is that why you killed her because people wouldn't bring it back on to you?

Pure fantasy. If you all thought she was town, then you have nothing on me except I stated it. Besides, scum-me would have killed Mac as he's easily the most threatening at the moment.
I do think it's cute how you're trying to start a wagon back up on me.

[Xiao Long]

The thing I don't get is, you didn't have anything to lose from it. If you voted Mutley after (like I did) then the mod would've just discounted it and moved on - it's not like we would've gained a warning. I kinda get the feeling, if you are scum, you MAY have wanted to wait and see there was a chance for your scumbuddy Mutley to survive the lynch before bussing him if there wasn't a chance.

At that point, assuming that Mutley's hammer did not count, Mutley was at L-1 (L-2, you voted him, then he voted himself). Voting for him would be a hammer without a claim, not something I really advocate. I clearly

did

have a lot to lose by voting Mutley and, potentially, so did the town as well. I don't understand how my unwillingness to hammer without a claim whilst there's a rules issue makes me suspicious? If anything, doesn't the fact that you asked me to hammer Mutley under such circumstances make you look suspicious?

I just want to say, it wouldn't have been hammering without a claim because he claimed earlier in day 1 when he was at L-1. I think you'd have had a lot more to gain from voting Mutley, especially considering Slimer flipped cop.

[Mutleyddmc]

Mac would have been kept alive, as he was always going to be vocal on me. I haven't started a bandwagon? You should read. I've voted Didi and if I for some reason don't get lynched I want Didi lynched. Mine is a theory on why they killed voodoo. I had you as town until today when you now are saying I could possibly be town but still want me lynched (which is fine I don't expect anyone not to lynch me) However I don't understand why you've changed your stance to could be a troll and town, rather than whay you've always said which is scum and troll?

What has made you change to that? even though I have admitted to being scum?

[Xiao Long]

Mac would have been kept alive, as he was always going to be vocal on me.

That doesn't make sense.

I haven't started a bandwagon? You should read. I've voted Didi and if I for some reason don't get lynched I want Didi lynched.

I said trying to start-

trying

.

Mine is a theory on why they killed voodoo. I had you as town until today when you now are saying I could possibly be town but still want me lynched (which is fine I don't expect anyone not to lynch me) However I don't understand why you've changed your stance to could be a troll and town, rather than whay you've always said which is scum and troll?

What has made you change to that? even though I have admitted to being scum?

Didn't I say Day 1 that it's possible you are town? Either way, my view on you being a troll hasn't changed. I still think you're scum, I'm simply acknowledging the possibility that you aren't.

[frog]

I think you'd have had a lot more to gain from voting Mutley, especially considering Slimer flipped cop.

Xiao, you realise nobody except theslimer himself knew he was a cop, right? And how would I have gained anything from voting Mutley, when regardless of whether I did or not theslimer would be lynched anyway?

[Mac]

If I get to L-1 I will lynch myself. Then I can save my other mafia buddy, that way he will have a free ride to the end. you fools. How did you not know I was mafia from the start

What part of this isn't a claim, frog?

[frog]

The part where it is quite clearly trolling, as you yourself demonstrate in the post following that one.

Assuming theslimer wasn't lynched:
What part of waiting and having a week left of D1 is scummy?

[Xiao Long]

I think you'd have had a lot more to gain from voting Mutley, especially considering Slimer flipped cop.

Xiao, you realise nobody except theslimer himself knew he was a cop, right? And how would I have gained anything from voting Mutley, when regardless of whether I did or not theslimer would be lynched anyway?

I'm speaking in retrospect, but still, even at the time, you'd have been better off voting Mutley than Slimer, especially considering Mutley was far scummier than Slimer. You'd have gained a decent bit of town points, most likely. Don't let my post about this trouble you too much, just a bit of devil's advocate.

[frog]

Just to clarify, you're saying that, at the moment of, say, post 387, I'd have been better off changing my vote to Mutley?

[Xiao Long]

I personally think you would have been better off voting Mutley in the first place, but as of the post where Mutley hammered Slimer, you should have changed your vote, yes. You clearly were not aware whether his unvote in the same post counted or not, just seems like it would have been logical to say, "Hey, this is a really shitty thing Mutley just did, and I'm not sure if his unvote counts. If it does count, then I should vote Mutley." And it wouldn't have been hammering him without a claim since he claimed in post 158. There was really no reason to wait to see what Equinox would say.

[frog]

Ok. Even then, the two options were to hammer Mutley or not to hammer Mutley. The latter meant that we still had a week of D1 left, as I have said, and choosing the latter option did not mean that I couldn't have hammered Mutley in the future, closer to deadline. I don't see why doing this was so bad?

[Xiao Long]

Okay, then why didn't you unvote Slimer at the very least? Would that not have "ensured" we'd have more time in D1?

[frog]

When is this proposed unvote? If it was after Mutley's post then, by the time I had got there, he was at L-2 (Mutley and Mac unvoted); i.e not an unsafe place to be. If it is before his hammer post, then I had no chance to, since between my last post and Mutley's hammer post Mac had put him at L-1 and Mutley had hammered.

[NicCage]

Yeah I might be wrong, I could see it being playstyle, but with the exception of mutley sheeping your points against him are the same as they were before the fake hammer. It just looks suspicious to me.

I'm actually curious why this is suspicious. If my reason for voting him hasn't changed, isn't that less scummy since I've been consistent with my reasons? Idk, maybe others see it as scummy.

My thought was that it was scummy that you weren't confident enough to want Mutley lynched that early in the day, but did want him lynched later without picking up much extra information on why he was scum. I doubted that you had a satisfying amount of information on other players to have been alright with that decision as town. It's not about consistency, just lack of overall information.
It's not insanely scummy though, I can understand it from a town perspective too.

NicCage, if you indeed read Mutley and Xiao the wrong way around, why do you think this happened in the first place?

Xeg's interaction with Mutley made him seem town to me, plus Xeg's reasoning seemed convincing at the time. I though maybe Mutley just didn't know any better and that Xiao might have been provoking the fight. However, if Xiao could have been using the argument to unproductively divert attention then Mutley could have been doing the same; the quickhammer hidden in a joke seems to point that Mutley's trolling is intended to explain away any scummy actions.