Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[Revenus]

Deras: I've already given out three townreads, they haven't changed and you should know where you and carey stand.

The people I haven't given reads on:

Mac needs to post more.
AT is leaning on the scummy side of null due to gut; I haven't really seen him pushing the game forward at all.
GM is on the scummy side of null as well; some of his posts just feel...off, but he has had some decent posts as well.


Seeing as I have 4 people I'm leaning scum in one way or another; get it together town.

For the people giving me townreads, good job, keep it up.

[AlexisTay3]

Spoiler: response to AT3

His direct answers to GM's subtle attack at his overreaction strengthen my townfeel for him(see post 76).

NO. NO. Not a "subtle attack", sorry. "That's interesting" means "I want to go back and look at that in the context of future posts." It doesn't mean "that's scummy" or "that's wrong."

I see that just like GM, she's not giving a lot of pressure to heavy and recalcitrant lurkers esp Carey, who at least as far as my newbie opinion goes, shouldn't be behaving as such in this game. I, however, feel that

this may be her having anticipated such play from said players,

being more experienced,

so the overall read is also very town.

WHAT.


WHAT.

GM (Manipulative Scummy)
1. In her posts I see a very selective appeal to reasoning, as Fro's behaviour does not really justify him being voted over Carey.
2. Moreover, when Eye Urn attempted to resolve a possible misunderstanding, she did not respond in time, leading me to suspect that she's deliberately playing on Fro's rather newbie posts.
3. Too focused on the behaviour on one person and not paying attention to another.
4. The back and forth that took place between her and Fro also does not help her case.
5. A very strong association between her and Fro, and fferylit is hot on their tail, and GM's rather flimsy reasoning leads me to believe there's a lot happening there.
6. GM's playing real hard on the manipulation.

1. I'm not voting Carey because he's not going to care. I have one vote, there are better things to do with it than try to policy lynch less than a week into a game.
2. Or I have a life outside of MafiaScum. I have yet to hear from Fro whether Fe was correct in his interpretation.
3. Just because I post a lot about one person doesn't mean I'm not watching all the others. Plus tunneling is a valid part of site meta (if I were tunneling) (which I'm not) (if you want to see tunneling I'll try and find a game which I recall was terrifyingly tunnelly) (found it) (take a special look at ThunderHog, captaineddie, and somewhat Zaicon for examples of tunneling) and typically done by Town (though not always) (ThunderHog was Scum in that game).
4. Elaborate.
5. I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here.
6. lol

Also it greatly interests me how similar your readslist is to Fe's and ffffffff's.

With all due respect, seeing as how my bad language has left you confused,

On the "subtle attack", I suppose I'll be looking back at that too. Whatever you call it, I was simply using it to justify my point that Fro feels towny based on how he repsonded really quickly to the notes you made of his posts to be interesting.

About the "being more experienced", I was attributing the fact that you don't pay attention to Carey, bears similarities to how ffery also seems to not mention Carey much, seeing as you two are both more experienced with players like him. Nothing scummy about that, but "interesting" as you put it. I saw ffery make an attempt to bring out Carey by asking him directly, whereas you didn't, so I made the distinction. Maybe he really isn't worth it, that's why I prefer voting him anyway.

1. I hear you, but I'm still going to point it out, especially since Carey could well be doing the exact thing ffery say he's doing, and you're just letting him do it.

2. Fair enough, I took a big step forward on that one.

3. Tunneling is fair, but it is still worth pointing out to see what you had to say about it.

4, 5, 6. I pointed out the exchanges you and Fro had, and included ffery in the picture because I believe that there's something going on between the three of you. She's voting you, while you're voting Fro. I see that you find the reference to manipulation strange, but that was what I was referring to.

I went through the same whole thread, and tried to find patterns, so I find it reasonable that people come to similar conclusions.

Anyway, I'm trying to see how people divide their attention and follow up on each other and come up with something useful from there, so it makes me repeat certain things you guys say. I promise I'll get better at hunting.

[AlexisTay3]

on 4,5,6: *to clarify, the "mainpulation" refers to the voting pattern.

[goodmorning]

I totally agree that 103 and 133 are very similar, but 133 at least has a bit of blatant misrepping.

FTFY

[goodmorning]

OH WAIT

Should read "... blatant misrepping and use of double standards that make no sense."

[AlexisTay3]

I sense hostility. I admit, it was reckless of me to put it forth so hard.

[Eye Urn]

OH WAIT

Should read "... blatant misrepping and use of double standards that make no sense."

Could you be more specific, please?

[fferyllt]

I sense hostility. I admit, it was reckless of me to put it forth so hard.

Putting your ideas forth hard is pro-town. provoking reactions you can evaluate is protown.

This post of yours looks scummy to me. You shouldn't be worried about going after someone "so hard" if you are town.

[AlexisTay3]

I am fully aware of those ideas you mentioned. I'm not worried about going after someone "so hard". I'm just really thrown off by GM's hostility.

[fferyllt]

What do you make of it?

[Fropome]

Hi all, just catching up. Wow 4 pages, this is impressive.

[Fropome]

First off this.

It reminds me to look at that in your ISO later

to see how it bounces off the rest.

I see you don't keep notes then.

Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions,

I can look back

and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

Re: the bold. You mean you read your own posts then? Only this is your reasoning for your no-read comment on me, and now you're justifying your scummy seeding of the thread with things to try to build a case on, by saying its for your benefit.

Checked back and my vote is still on Carey? Not the worst place to put it, but a pretty useless one seeing as he's not reading.

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

Would like to have seen some reasoning on this first.

I think we got one.
Gonna wait till I see a vote count before I put my vote here, but that's where it's headed unless I see anything worse in the meantime.

[Fropome]

Fro is talking a lot about being scum, but I have no idea what I think that means.

I thought the meaning of my posts was pretty clear? Maybe that IC hat has fallen in front of your eyes.
What would you say town's job is?

Ok, so this is what you're saying is defensive? I think you both misunderstood each other in different ways. Fropome, is English not your first language? I've seen a few other weird things that makes me think you're a non-native speaker. GM said she didn't know what your posts meant on the level of whether you're scum, and from your response I take it that you thought she didn't understand the bare semantic meaning or surface content of the posts. (I didn't notice this particular interaction on first read because Frop didn't quote GM; I actually hadn't considered what it was in response to but do remember that it seemed weird because I didn't recall any trouble anyone had with understanding). Yes, I can see what GM might see as a bit defensive, but I think it's because Frop didn't understand the level of meaning that GM wasn't sure about. GM's vote makes far more sense to me, but I think is ultimately based on a misunderstanding.

No I'm a native english speaker. It wasn't defensive it was sarcasm. GM's statement was a typical scum maneuver, drop in a nothing now and later try to build a case off it. That plus an impossible read on fer, isos herself(wtf?), and after casting fake doubts on my posts she redirects the subject from that to something completely irrelevant to town.

There was nothing to defend against, I'm English, are the world's best at sarcasm

[Fropome]

fferyllt>Eye Urn>Fropome>AlexisTay3>Revenus>Goodmorning>CareyHammer.
[/unvote]UNVOTE:

In post 76, Fropome wrote:
In post 45, goodmorning wrote:
Bit defensive, this.

Not at all, not when there's possibly three scum tells in your post.

Could you point out what those three scum tells are? (Unless it's bad for town, I'm not sure if that's the case)

My vote on Revenus was a knee-jerk reaction so I'm gonna

Unvote

and wait to place a better thought-out vote.

Offtopic: While reviewing the thread I found out that you can check a single player's posts with the menu at the bottom of the page, and you can quote a specific part of a post by selecting it the clicking "Quote", just in case someone else didn't know

This was a very towny post.

I use a spreadsheet. It also helps to keep track of the vote movements. Pretty much agree with you on ffer and Eye as also towny so far.

[Fropome]

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

Ah man, I'm a hypocrite already. Voting for Fropome mainly on the basis of his overreaction to me.

lol. I don't think they make facepalm macros big enough for this.

[Fropome]

I soft-FOSed her about getting a townfeel so early and with what I see as little basis. She glosses over that and focuses on why her disagreement with the basis of some of my reads at that point doesn't mean we're not on the same team.

Other parts of that post make me uneasy as well. She's encouraging about the Deras bandwagon without adding a vote to it. It's subtle but could be encouraging more votes without getting her own hands dirty.

post 85 also sounds alarms and is the one that finally drew my vote. It feels like she's subtly recast Fropome's suspicion of her as a reason to vote him. But, that looks like an OMGUS vote despite the window dressing.

agree with all this reasoning.

Meant to include post 90
That looks like flail.

QFT.

[Fropome]

In case anyone is interested in my reads:

Town

ffffffffffffffff (dropping towntells everywhere)
Fe (this is, of course, Eye Urn) (for future reference) (pretty townish, but somewhat vague at times in a way?)

Null

Deras (hard newb rea, not so hard any other read)
Mac (few posts)
Rev (I am flipflopping on him. I do not know why.)
Carey (general behaviour BUT it's kind of his playstyle, I'll have a real read on him when he posts substance)

Null

AT3 (reads post)
Fro (pending explanation)

Scum

Are you still awaiting this "explanation"? (Only i don't remember you asking for one?)

No real substance on any of those reads, but it's still early days.
Flipflopping without knowing why on Rev is interesting. Surely we know what makes us flip-flop?

[Fropome]

I am fully aware of those ideas you mentioned. I'm not worried about going after someone "so hard". I'm just really thrown off by GM's hostility.

Once might even say it's somewhat "defensive" hurr durr.

Gm needs more pressure for now, that's for sure. Need to check those vote counts. Did I miss some combing through?

ffer looks as town as she has in other games, except for her first here where she looked newb town, and she's level pegging with my reasoning on GM which always is nice to see.
I thought deras came good, moved from neutral to slightly positive in one post.
AT3 I place around middle towards positive also. WoTs of "analysis" can be scummy but we'll see how those thoughts develop. Seems to be trying to understand what is going on, and to be looking for both town and scum.
Eye Urn seems strongly town, some good analysis and questions.
Mac I'll give a bit more time on. Hope he puts in better than Birdland did in his other game here.
Carey is a joke, and I think his last game here was also shitty like this, which makes me annoyed as hell if he's town because it puts us a man down when we need to work together.
GM just looks like flaily scum to me. I don't think I'm tunneling, I think my initial reads were good, better than a "gut feeling", and I think my suspicion has been pretty well justified since. One or two townish posts amid everything she has posted doesn't fill me with confidence.
Revenus, null.

All together I'm comfortable with a town core as it seems to be shaping up,should be a basis for some good work.

[Fropome]

Rereading Deras's 103, basically all I see is just a parroting of what everyone else has said. I don't really see anything that's standing out as an original opinion except for his view that Rev's vote is based on shaky reasoning, and I'm pretty sure Rev just didn't feel it necessary to repeat the argument I had already made. Claiming to not have reads the first few days, and then coming back with the exact same reads as everyone else once under a bit of pressure feels a bit contrived. If possible, I'd like to see him make some original comments on the various threads of discussion. I totally agree that this might just be confirmation bias on my part, but what I really am interested in is everyone voicing their own opinions; it's easy to get by as scum by just repeating what the rest of the town has said.

I seem to have missed the meat of that when I read through earlier. Maybe I was just glad to see an effort. This strengthens my read on you anyway. Hopefully deras will take it onboard. Again, I agree with ffer about newbs getting a little leeway, but it's not situation which can last past day 1 or 2 at the latest (I suspect in this format day 1 is best, but there's as yet nothing overly scum n00b thing going on with deras that I would feel confident lynching him above GM or Carey for now.

(I have a vague suspicion carey is playing to get out of newbie hell early, by getting lynched day 1 for playing useless as he did in his previous game, and now this. I think it's a downside of the site's newb restriction that it creates this kind of incentive to get into the bigger games by playing like a dick in newbville to get lynched early. Although, I've noticed blacklisting is not uncommon here, which I like).

[Fropome]

Okay, for now I'm happy to VOTE: GoodMorning
Needs moar pressure.

[goodmorning]

I sense hostility. I admit, it was reckless of me to put it forth so hard.

Not the problem.
A lot of the time, I find newbs hard-attacking the IC to be a decent towntell... IF the case has basis and is somewhat original. This is neither.

OH WAIT

Should read "... blatant misrepping and use of double standards that make no sense."

Could you be more specific, please?

It's all in my spoiler'd post. If you want more clarification I can rephrase upon request.

I'm just really thrown off by GM's hostility.

I am not being hostile. I have found something that looks scummy and I'm going to pick it apart.

Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions,

I can look back

and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

Re: the bold. You mean you read your own posts then? Only this is your reasoning for your no-read comment on me, and now you're justifying your scummy seeding of the thread with things to try to build a case on, by saying its for your benefit.

No, I mean that I reread the game. My posts are only part of that. As I realized later, checking my posts for the word "interesting" is technically kind of a notetaking system for me.
I still don't think this clarifies whether it was or was not an overreaction.

Checked back and my vote is still on Carey? Not the worst place to put it, but a pretty useless one seeing as he's not reading.

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

Would like to have seen some reasoning on this first.

Yeah, I realized I hadn't explicitly stated why so I did it in my next post or two.

I think we got one.
Gonna wait till I see a vote count before I put my vote here, but that's where it's headed unless I see anything worse in the meantime.

You're probably fine to vote me, I think there's only one or two votes on me at the moment. ffffffff was saying that you are voting me already though. Is that not the case?

No I'm a native english speaker. It wasn't defensive it was sarcasm. GM's statement was a typical scum maneuver, drop in a nothing now and later try to build a case off it. That plus an impossible read on fer, isos herself(wtf?), and after casting fake doubts on my posts she redirects the subject from that to something completely irrelevant to town.

There was nothing to defend against, I'm English, are the world's best at sarcasm

This looks like grasping.
The read on fffff is not "impossible," ISOing myself is a habit I got into at a point when I was in 7 games at once, the doubts were not fake and are even less so now. I have been accused of redirecting more times in this game than in all previous combined and I see no merit in the accusation.

Meant to include post 90
That looks like flail.

QFT.

From both of you, I want to hear why you think that post is flail. I personally find it to be one of my less flaily posts ever.
Also, do you agree with the reasoning in light of my responses? Or are you just sheeping fffffffff?

Are you still awaiting this "explanation"? (Only i don't remember you asking for one?)

No real substance on any of those reads, but it's still early days.
Flipflopping without knowing why on Rev is interesting. Surely we know what makes us flip-flop?

The potential explanation as per your overreaction that Fe requested.
No, I don't know why I flip-flop. Gut, I suppose?

Aaaaaand wall.

P-EDIT: I was actually going to switch votes to AT3 until I read 167.
LOLNOPE
1. What are more votes going to do to me? Pressure me? I replace into L-1 slots

for fun

. Bitches.
2. This early in the game, if this many people are agreeing it means one of two things: A. Someone has claimed Scum. B. Scum have found a weakness in the Town's reads and plan to use it.
Right now four of you are calling me Scum. I'll make a sigbet on it if anyone is interested: both Scum are in that group.
The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.
PLUS they may want to avoid lynching me today since my flip will likely expose them as obvScum.
So I might actually survive.
The similar push on Carey is giving me a hella Townread on him now.
3. Mac is a good player. Since I have him as sort of a PoE town in my head, that makes me feel confident in Town's win here.

P-EDIT2: There is no requirement to play any Newbie games. Also Carey is an SE, he can join whatever games he wants. I actually think his presence here is bad for Town BUT (silver lining) good for learning because some players do that.

P-EDIT3: Is that L-2? I agree, MOAR PRESSURE

BRING IT ON

[goodmorning]

When I say PoE Town, it means he's a paper Null but as I have two scumreads and he isn't one he's considered Town for the purposes of whatever it is I was saying.
Just to avoid confusion.

[Fropome]

UNVOTE: unvote careyhammer

VOTE: goodmorning

I just went from being a little suspicious to being a lot suspicious.

@GM You keep harping on that "over-reaction" thing. I'm sure you'll start believing it yourself soon.

Everything you post is now defensive.
My explanation for fossing you has been well covered.
Nothing to grasp at, you're providing all the material substance yourself.
If you don't agree that what you did is scummy I can't help you, but it doesn't change my reads at all. Will be interesting to see if your none-thoughts on Revenus develop from "nothing" to FoS, now I busted your last seed it's good to see you drop another one in.

So yes, you do reread your own posts. Interesting. Still no excuse for making scummy posts though.

[Fropome]

^eta, dunno where that quote came from, still stuck on the multiquote somewhere. Must remember to preview.

[goodmorning]

I am so glad you answered my questions instead of doing this.

Very useful and not at all scummy.

And before you link back the fallacy fallacy, do please keep in mind that your failure to answer even a single one of my questions is anti-Town.