Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[Fropome]

Mac, what are your thoughts about this?

In post 170, goodmorning wrote:

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

If GM has responded to this, I haven't seen it.

Me neither.

[Fropome]

Micro 137: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

GM replaced in and was scum, scum win. Not seeing the sorts of long-ass cases GM is making here. Not seeing the repetitive hectoring. Not seeing the appeals to the aether.

But, it doesn't look like she came under much prresure early in the game either. Also, way lower volume of posts and wow...better, tighter, more well thought out argumentation as scum apparently than as town.

Inconclusive, but it adds a little weight to the theory that GM is being terribad town.

I didn't see this theory get developed. Did I miss something?

Could you outline it for me please?

UNVOTE: goodmorning

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

I'll take the bet that I am not a member of the scum team. No problem. As for GM, I would love to write her sig.

[Fropome]

Town point-wise, as I said last night, the sheer time and effort involved in that WoT case looks like something town would do more than scum would. I'm reading one of her scum games this morning to see how her case-building in it compares to that post.

Effort isn't correlated with alignment.
I've experimented a bit with different types of case-building, but I think the chronological ISO type is what I've been doing most recently.

And the playstyle thing I'm talking about is kind of ethereal? Honestly it's kind of embarrassing because I'm usually an extremely logical person, but it's just kind of a gut thing. And when I say gut, I mean that there's probably something actual that is the same but small and not something I'm conscious of. And it wouldn't matter what you were emulating because it's sort of a foundational thing? I'm kind of rambling in the incredibly weird ~woo~ sort of area, so I'll stop now. If it's unclear... it is unclear and I have no idea what else I can say to clarify.

And can we take it you'll stop trusting your gut the moment I flip town. And I will take a sigbet that I am not scum, if I am scum you get to write my sig, if you are I get to write yours, which will probably just say "Do not trust this player's ethereal gut reads, evar."

@Fro: You're pissing me off. Good news is your playstyle is beginning to remind me of another I've come across before, so that's one thing.

So what should I care if I'm pissing you off? You've done the same thing with revenus as you tried to get away with doing with me, and I suspect you were getting ready to "build a case" on him when your try with me gained no traction.

If anyone is curious, I have

actual basis

(!) for playstyle comparisons. It netted me scum here, where I compared SafetyDance to a different player I was familiar with, Zaicon. Some people just play very similarly. (And this is the kind of thing I mean when I talk about foundational play, though in this case I was able to pick out a specific thing: types of questioning.)

Lol. You're a card.

[Fropome]

This game is going to be verrrryy interesting.
Maybe I won't really have to put on my IC hat?

That said, the debating over theory is an interesting study of playstyles but probably not doing much to advance the gamestate. I mean, keep being awesome and all that, but does anyone have any tentative reads?

Fro is talking a lot about being scum, but I have no idea what I think that means.
fffffffff is giving me Townfeels so far.
Revenus is behaving himself. This is interesting.

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

My case is mostly your lack of case for voting Fropome, while indicating you liked Eye's deras case/vote.

You're going after low-haning newb fruit.

ff, I read the underlined as you saying GM was attacking newbs. I'm not quite sure what the 'low-hanging' part of it translates as, could you clear that up? But anyway, my point is that the bolded part of GM's post comes across as her saying that pretty much everyone in this game has a decent grasp of mafia as it is and there's no need for her to help people out other than post structuring etc.

It kinda makes your original point redundant, because she's stated that she doesn't feel anyone is a raw newb that, as you put it, she can attack.

On the other hand, your reference to Micro 137 is a bit redundant because the game mechanics were TOTALLY different. I was also scum in that game. It was nightless, meaning we had to drive the town to mislynch two of their own rather than us. She's a very clever player: look at our scum QT where she practically holds my hand as I stumble my way through the first 10 or so pages.

She did make similar styled cases to the one she made on you in that game: one on why I was newbtown and one on why TNE was scum (one more too, but I forget which.) That's worth remembering - but it could also be her general casestyle and playstyle.

Anyway, it's re-read time for the posts I've missed. Bare with me.

I took the newb fruit thing as secondary. I genuinely believe ffer's scumdar was tweaked at that point, and I'm currently wondering about the way she has backed down on that.

[Fropome]

ffer: Early enthusiasm for goodmorning's intro seemed a bit off to me. Seemed happy to be town read with no suspicion. Has to read me as town at some point, or having a bad town game or is scum -- expect her to be reticent about voting me, even if she's scum. When she says i'm likely "n00b paranoid town" i take it to be a signal that she has read me, because she's seen me play town enough times. Otoh, missing the significance of GM's post was disconcerting, but once she recognised the questions as valid she looked into it. Then GM's own performance provoked the kinds of response I would have expected of her if her scumdar had kicked in. If GM flips scum I could imagine the GM thing being a buss by her, or distancing if she backs off (as she has for now), so we'll see how that plays out. I doubt she would buss this early, except to win my trust and keep me alive to end game to help her win? Am I a better ally than her scum buddy right now, or have I found a really easy mislynch in GoodMorning? I am uncomfortable with the way she has climbed down on GM but I'm pleased she seems to be keeping it on the boil. For now the only way I can read her as scum is to impute some things to her which I'm not willing to do without getting a more definite sense of how she's playing first.

Deras: His entrance, when I interpreted from perspective of my RVS posts about getting stuck in if you are newb town, could seem like an opportune moment for a lurky scum to gain town cred, but the "I wasn't sure what was a scum tell" thing was funny and quite likely a paranoid town thing after all. If it is a scaredy scum, then at least his ongoing efforts will provide stuff to analyse. If he's town he's likely to not be lynched early, being the cause of much wariness, so I was thinking it's important to make sure he has a good idea of how to play endgame should it come to that. However, I'm not altogether sold on the newb thing. Needs to become much more clearly scummy before I can put my vote here.

AlexisTay3: I like posts somewhat, conspiracy theory stuff is weird but then there are some strange ways of expressing how we think. For me it's a kind of shape thing, working out what motives most likely fit their play. Here I can't really tell, except that AT3 seems to be following the exchanges with GoodMorning and reading it coherently, and in my view correctly. If GM is town, then the willingness to get such an interpretation together might prove relevant later.

Mac: Had little until now. Appears to be logicking it out with ffer and I'm happy to see some pressure on her. Though I don't find his case against ffer convincing - due to experience of ffer more than anything - it doesn't come out as as ad-hoc stitch-together the way GM's did.

Eye Urn: This is the one which gives me the willies, but maybe it's because I'm finding him almost impartial, and I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. Seems willing to commit to conclusions. Has a density to his text which requires more attention, researching and comparing content as different players present it can be very pro-town, but it can also be a way to create the illusion of collusion or fabrication. post 253 is a good post. I like that he's pushing different angles to what I'm picking up on.

CareyHammer: He's made one worthwhile point so far, which is that there are three weeks of play on day one, and for what it's worth it's best not to rush things. I'm busy too, but I'm still giving time to working on the game, not just reading it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one doing that. I want to see him start to try.

Revenus: I haven't given any real attention to him, reading me pure town early indicated he was understanding of the content of my posts about lurking, which followed a question to me, and also pointed out a potential pitfall in the "rule of thumb" I outlined which was also worthwhile (though there is a way to address that, cue the mighty GodKill.

GoodMorning: Definitely want to see her flip. Scum are unlikely to nk her if she stinks this bad as town. Interesting the way ffer and she make peace at post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4834759. If she's town and still alive after my flip, I hope to be able to eat humble pie as she cuts a swathe through scum.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

[fferyllt]

Micro 137: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

GM replaced in and was scum, scum win. Not seeing the sorts of long-ass cases GM is making here. Not seeing the repetitive hectoring. Not seeing the appeals to the aether.

But, it doesn't look like she came under much prresure early in the game either. Also, way lower volume of posts and wow...better, tighter, more well thought out argumentation as scum apparently than as town.

Inconclusive, but it adds a little weight to the theory that GM is being terribad town.

I didn't see this theory get developed. Did I miss something?

Could you outline it for me please?

UNVOTE: goodmorning

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

I'll take the bet that I am not a member of the scum team. No problem. As for GM, I would love to write her sig.

I don't think I presented it as a theory per se, but I did refer to what was starting to coalesce in my thoughts before I unvoted GM...I think. Maybe I said something about how ill-formed her case was after I unvoted.

GM's case on me was vehement and kinda short on facts, though quite long. She took a ton of my posts and interpreted them about as negatively as was possible. In some cases she was recasting them as scummy even though after they were posted she'd mentioned her townfeel. I think it's mostly reaction to me - the pressure I put on her starting with my vote.

In reading other games, I found that the length of her case was unusual. Its ill formed spaghetti-against-the-wall approach didn't look all that much like her scum games that I had time to review. And as we went back and forth, I found myself getting pretty temperish here and there, which once my temper cooled made me pretty cautious about how I was interpreting her posts.

I think there's a really big chasm between our game styles. Her style, with the cute all caps end notes, the condescension, and other emotional curlicues annoys me. And I am reacting pretty negatively to that, which doesn't help in getting to an objective read of how she's reacted to the pressure I put on her.

But that WoT case looks townish awful so I've upgraded her to unsure.

Now I'm thinking about who avoided those skirmishes, and whether anyone appeared to be trying to fan the flames, and from which direction.

[fferyllt]

@Fropome, your game is a little different here. The differences became more apparent to me after you started posting again after your weekend break. I know that you've been studying games and thinking about how to play effectively so I'm cautious about calling different "scummy". Prior to this, I've thought your play was a little distant and removed, if that makes sense. I don't think I've seen you go after another player the way you have GM.

Also, where did GM and I make peace. I'd say that I have backed off a bit and am trying to widen my view now. But, I get no sense of peace made from anything that GM has posted.

[fferyllt]

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

[CareyHammer]

Wow, Frop. I see you as Town as fuck.

[Mac]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

Sorry, totally thought I did. Null-leaning-scum. Needs to post more. Needs more content. Posts like #334 are fucking useless to us all.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

"We've" is just me referring to me debunking it for the town as I thought I had done but yeah, I have to re-read because some people have said I'm misrepping you.

To clarify the hypocrisy, the way I see it goes like this:

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning -

easy targets

and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

I clarified "easy target" as Carey and Deras (which could be the exact post of misrep here) and then you name Carey as scummy and Deras as null (but I believe you said null-leaning scum at one point) - this is where I find it a bit hypocritical if you were referring to Carey and Deras as easy targets. Regardless of whether or not you have your vote on experienced players, .it's contradictory. Scum tend to trip over themselves when trying to form a case against a town player (assuming you are scum, GM is town and I'm not misrepping you) - this is what I'm getting at.

Of course. All this hinges on you clarifying who you meant as easy targets.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

Sorry, totally thought I did. Null-leaning-scum. Needs to post more. Needs more content. Posts like #334 are fucking useless to us all.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

"We've" is just me referring to me debunking it for the town as I thought I had done but yeah, I have to re-read because some people have said I'm misrepping you.

To clarify the hypocrisy, the way I see it goes like this:

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning -

easy targets

and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

I clarified "easy target" as Carey and Deras (which could be the exact post of misrep here) and then you name Carey as scummy and Deras as null (but I believe you said null-leaning scum at one point) - this is where I find it a bit hypocritical if you were referring to Carey and Deras as easy targets. Regardless of whether or not you have your vote on experienced players, .it's contradictory. Scum tend to trip over themselves when trying to form a case against a town player (assuming you are scum, GM is town and I'm not misrepping you) - this is what I'm getting at.

Of course. All this hinges on you clarifying who you meant as easy targets.

I meant Fropome and Deras as the easy n00b targets.

I thought I'd made that clear.

[Mac]

I'm not sure how you came to Fropome because he's pretty capable from what I've seen.

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure how you came to Fropome because he's pretty capable from what I've seen.

He's played about 4-5 games IIRC and this is his first game here at MS.

I think he is on his way to mafia awesomeness, but he is still a n00b.

[Mac]

If you say so, but he's pretty capable and GM appreciated that early on about pretty much everyone here.

Why did you drop your vote from GM?

[fferyllt]

If you say so, but he's pretty capable and GM appreciated that early on about pretty much everyone here.

Why did you drop your vote from GM?

Because I didn't think her rambling WoT about me looked like other scum games I've reviewed. I upgraded my read to unsure. I don't leave votes on people I have as unsure. It's difficult. I have 2-3 of her posts that just plain look scummy to me and I'm weighing that against the terribad-town feel I got from the WoT.

[CareyHammer]

Yeah, Yeah, I'm at work. Cant post more than a sentence or two from here.

[CareyHammer]

Just don't accuse me of "active lurking"

[TraceyLyn11]

ArcAngel9 replaces AlexisTay3. Welcome her!

[Eye Urn]

Just don't accuse me of "active lurking"

@Carey
I'd be happy to refrain from accusing you of something that you stop doing. But I'm still quite bitter over the fact that in other games you claimed to never read the thread, would continue to post until lynched so that you couldn't be force-replaced out, and then post-game claim that it was fun even though you did approximately nothing. You have your meta of being useless, and so I don't really care if you're scum or not, I want you gone from this game for the good of all of us. Since apparently being intentionally useless is still within the rules as long as you post, it comes down to lynching you. I don't even care if you go on to claim a power role, I'll believe you and still lynch you because you'll still be useless. Please, please try to prove otherwise.

@All

All of Carey's posts: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 6&sr=posts

Iso's of Carey from his previous games:
Micro 126 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Mini 1427 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - actually asked to be replaced out of that game. Why not others?
Newbie 1332 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE COUNT 1.3

[L-5] Fropome:

[L-3] fferyllt: (goodmorning, Mac)

[L-4] Deras: (CareyHammer)

[L-5]

AlexisTay3

ArcAngel9:

[L-5] Mac:

[L-5] Eye Urn:

[L-3] CareyHammer: (Eye Urn, Revenus)

[L-5] Revenus:

[L-4] goodmorning: (Fropome)

Not Voting:

3 (ArcAngel9, Deras, fferyllt)

• With nine alive, it takes five to lynch.
  
• Day One's deadline: April 18, 2013 CST or in (expired on 2013-04-18 20:45:00).
  
• V/LA: Revenus ((expired on 2013-04-07 18:34:00))
  
• ArcAngel9 replaced AlexisTay3.

[CareyHammer]

Wow, that's cool how you researched my whole history like that. I had no idea you could do that.

I'm not intentionally useless, it just comes out that way usually.

I'll try to be more useful. See you guys at 10:30 pm PDT.

Welcome, Angel! What do you think about all of this mess I'm in?

[Deras]

Although I see the logic here, the thought of lynching someone who has said they have reasons for being busy is troublesome to me. I would like to see some time given to allowing Carey to become more involved before I want to consider possibilities of lynching. So far the only thing objective is in the god-kill / replacement avoidance by posting useless fluff. This also strikes me as not very n00b, if you can logic this on your own why couldn't you logic "I don't what counts for scum tells here" before you posted it? Did you already know that it was likely to be read as n00b town? It's a bit of a stretch of the imagination, I admit, but it is conceivable that you messed up and are now trying to make amends, by suggesting a "lynch for info" which is a nice way to set about justifying a mislynch IMO.

I said that back when Carey was dropping by once a day to say "lol hi i have no time for this". Since it seems he's getting into the game now, I'm no longer in favor of lynching him, at least until I see more of him.

Mac, what are your thoughts about this?

In post 170, goodmorning wrote:

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

If GM has responded to this, I haven't seen it.

Me neither.

She responded here:

YES
GOOD
GOOD JOB
I was waiting for someone to call that WIFOM or worse and nobody did. This is exactly what I was looking for and it's a minor point in your favour.

I still don't like that though, while it could be true, it feels like when a teacher would fuck up and the say "good, I did that to check if you were paying attention"

@Carey
Could you provide some reasoning behind your reads and your vote on me?

[ArcAngel9]

hello newbies and SE's and IC's
so, 14 pages already for a newbie game, you guys are going good.
let me check up for a bit and will jump in right after...

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: response to Fro's 323

If any of those were scumtells I might agree with you.

All of it fits with scum motivations, I don't see how any of it works for the benefit of town. That's what's scummy about it.

The reasons you list:
1. Read that you didn't see where it came from - not my fault if you weren't picking up what I was putting down.
2. My "interesting" - has since been explained. If you don't find the explanations satisfactory please ctrl+f "interesting" in my Newbie game ISOs as both alignments.
3. You thought that I redirected the conversation to the import of replacements. A. That was in response to a comment from Fe. B. I did not intend to redirect any conversation and don't feel that I did so.
4. The read again. Still not my fault if you weren't getting where I was coming from.
5. ISOing myself - IN WHAT UNIVERSE IS THIS ANY KIND OF TELL?
6. The redirect again.

Not an answer.

...that satisfies you. I'm not here to provide you with more excuses to lay down another WoT of misdirections. You do your thing, and if you're town you'll act with town motives, if not hopefully enough town will pick up that and give you a kick up the backside. Meanwhile, if you're scum, you're doing a good job of looking the part.

No. If you ask me a question I will answer it. If I ask you a question you say "it just is, nah nah".
Not providing any reasoning or examples to back up your accusations is scummy as fuck.

I am well equipped to find and understand sarcasm. None of 35 looks even remotely like sarcasm.

Beep boop.

How helpful of you.

bold: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Yes, sometimes people agree on something. Rarely do they agree on everything.

Haven't agreed on everything. I need to keep some things close to my chest in regards to ffer in order to catch her out if she is scum. I believe she's town, and I was far from impressed with you ad-hoc case against her.

Yes, my case is indeed ad-hoc. Ad-hoc is defined by Merriam-Webster as "for the particular end or case at hand without consideration of wider application".
I am not interested in applying my case against ff in a wider fashion. It is a case concerned with and designed for this game.

Even if dishonesty were defensive, which I'm not going to get into because it's largely irrelevant, this is not an answer. It is not even close to an answer. When I say something like "you're being defensive" and can't provide any examples of such, I expect to be laughed at all the way to the gallows. I don't sit there smugly and expect to be lauded for making claims I can't back up.

I can back it up. Your dishonesty¹ consists in how you spin narratives post-hoc², you may be lying to yourself³ but it's for others to judge alongside me if you're talking consistently and making coherent cases, or not. I've said what I meant, that you continue to misrepresent it is dishonest⁴, that you interpret into stuff things which never happened is dishonest⁵, and you use of terminology in order to slant the narrative is also dishonest⁶. If that's how you are irl, then ⁷

1. I did not ask for instances of dishonesty. I asked for instances of defensiveness.
1a. Come to think of it, you really didn't give any instances of dishonesty either.
2. "Post-hoc" is defined (second definition) by Merriam-Webster as "formulated after the fact". Provide an example of me doing this.
3. I am neither lying to myself nor to the rest of the playerlist.
4. Does it ever get boring to repeat your unfounded statements?
5. Much of playing Mafia is the individual's interpretation of others' actions. There is nothing inherently dishonest about personal interpretations.
6. Terminology. Really. I'm not the one slinging Latin here.
"Slanting the narrative?" Really? History (and narrative) is written by the victors. At the moment I'm supposedly a scumread of a high number of people, I don't think I'd have a chance of "slanting the narrative" if I tried (and I wouldn't, because I prefer that people not just blindly sheep)
7. Go fuck yourself.

If you fucked up and had to backpedal and the only excuse you could find was sarcasm, I can't help you. Calling it sarcasm doesn't make it so, anyone can read for themselves (apart from you, apparently).

We'll see if I fucked up when you see my flip! Then you'll have to face falsification of your failure to deal honestly with your own biases and dumb no-reads.

Wowwwww. This guy needs a slow clap for this one. AtE AND ad hominem? (oh look, my Latin comes with a helpful explanation

so I don't look like a dick

)
BEST. ARGUMENT. EVER. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

There you go again with "dishonest." If I had known this was going to turn into ad hominem I would have worn my wellies.

You could be scum, so don't take it necessarily personally, unless you're town in which case you really are someone I do not want to play alongside again soon.

You have yet to prove:
1. That I am being dishonest
2. That all dishonesty must necessarily be scummy
2a. Or at least that the dishonesty you claim you can demonstrate my exhibiting must necessarily be scummy.

How about if I flip scum you write my sig, and if you flip scum I write yours? Sig to remain for one month from end of the game. I'm in for that, say you'll deal and it's done.

That's no gamble at all. I'll take that "bet" (not really a bet because I'm already aware of how it'll turn out on my end) and you're gonna regret it, 'cause I'm

the best there's ever been

Town.

Spoiler: that thing about not being the NK

Mac, what are your thoughts about this?

In post 170, goodmorning wrote:

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

If GM has responded to this, I haven't seen it.

Me neither.

I responded to it in one of my catch-up posts, 312, in a response to Deras.

@Fro: You're pissing me off. Good news is your playstyle is beginning to remind me of another I've come across before, so that's one thing.

So what should I care if I'm pissing you off? You've done the same thing with revenus as you tried to get away with doing with me, and I suspect you were getting ready to "build a case" on him when your try with me gained no traction.

1. What thing with Revenus? What thing with you?
2. I've not had a scumread on Revenus so far this game.
3. My philosophy on traction in Mafia games: if you're not getting traction, dig in and push harder. (barring, of course, a scummier read)

@Fro, 379: You are completely able to meta me if you so choose.

Spoiler: response to ff's 331

In some cases she was recasting them as scummy even though after they were posted she'd mentioned her townfeel.

Yes, oddly enough that townfeel did a sudden turnaround somewhere after

that

.

I think it's mostly reaction to me - the pressure I put on her starting with my vote.

I don't know if you meta'd the game where I replaced into the scummiest slot (it was at L-1 and L-2 for most of the game) for the challenge of trying to turn it around, but I would do that again in a heartbeat. Votes and pressure bounce straight off my logical side, they don't even touch my emotions.

I think there's a really big chasm between our game styles. Her style, with the cute all caps end notes, the condescension, and other emotional curlicues annoys me. And I am reacting pretty negatively to that, which doesn't help in getting to an objective read of how she's reacted to the pressure I put on her.

CAPSLOCK FOREVERRRRRRRR
Like I say, I was all logic once. It didn't work that well for me. Maybe it will work for you.
LOL "pressure"

Now I'm thinking about who avoided those skirmishes, and whether anyone appeared to be trying to fan the flames, and from which direction.

This is a very good thing to be thinking about.
I personally was looking at Fe in that respect (yet another playstyle ping, sorry). He's playing verrryyy close to the belt here.
I'm definitely rereading today or tomorrow and revamping my reads.

Also, where did GM and I make peace. I'd say that I have backed off a bit and am trying to widen my view now. But, I get no sense of peace made from anything that GM has posted.

This.

ArcAngel9 replaces AlexisTay3.

Oh.
The same ArcAngel9 that always reads me Scum regardless of my alignment?
Coooollllll.

@Fe 344 If you were ISOing Carey you should've done Micro 137 and killed two birds with one stone ;]

@Deras 347 ugh i 100% hate when people do that. In seriousness, I was about to give right the fuck up on that post and get a bit screamy about nobody paying attention.

@AA9: Hi. I'm Town.

@Everyone:

The one thing I don't like about spoiler tags is that people sometimes don't read them if it's not specifically addressed to them. I encourage you to at least skim just in case there is a brief point you find interesting/useful.