Newbie 1345: Mafia in a Bind (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 3.03

Mac (1) - NicCage
NicCage (1) - Mac

Not Voting (3) - Didi, frog, Xiao Long

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

The deadline is Tuesday, April 23, 2013, at 5:40 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[Mac]

Also, I reckon Xiao is pretty much conftown for me, Spadille replaced in and immediately pushed him and so did Nic.

Can't see scum bussing like that, plus he unvoted follow NicCage's ridiculous sheeping vote. Town move.

[NicCage]

The purpose of you wanting to quicklynch Mutley is to limit discussion, the purpose of you effectively hammering Mutley was to end the day early and limit discussion.

I know what your saying is wrong, even if you won't admit it. It's clear that you're going to stick to your guns and we aren't going to accomplish anything further on this point.

So everyone else, does Mac's "Xiao was planning to frame me" argument make sense?

[Mac]

Limit discussion of what, Nic? Who Mutley's scumbuddy could be? WHEN MUTLEY WASN'T EVEN SCUM?

Of course I'm going to stick to my guns, I know you are scum.

[Mac]

By the waaaay guys. I voted Mutley with my first post, and so did Nic.

I unvoted later before re-voting so don't give me this quicklynch bullshit when you are as bad as me, if not worse. The guy is scum.

[Didi]

Nic, why do you think I'm mafia?

[Xiao Long]

Oh okay, that post is clearer.
The thing is, that plan doesn't make any sense because it wouldn't prove anything. If you're scum and you vote him he won't be hammered. If he's scum then he still wouldn't be hammered. If you're scum and he votes you you you won't be hammered, if he's scum and he votes you you won't be hammered.
You were trying to frame it up like his vote on you would prove something so you could use that against him rather than just voting according to your suspicions against Xiao.

There's one more possibility you aren't considering-it's possible both me and Mac are town and scum is letting us convince the rest of town to vote for one or the other. If this is the case, it casts more suspicion on you, imo. There's also the possibility that me, you AND Mac are town and Didi and Frog are letting us screw around. But I don't think that's the case, because if both Didi and Frog are scum, then the game would be over because they would have just voted either you or Mac.
In short, this leaves us with the fact that either both you and Mac are scum, or one of you is scum and one of Didi and Frog is scum.

Also, I reckon Xiao is pretty much conftown for me, Spadille replaced in and immediately pushed him and so did Nic.

Can't see scum bussing like that, plus he unvoted follow NicCage's ridiculous sheeping vote. Town move.

Or I could just be a really brilliant scum player. Honestly though, you shouldn't rule out the possibility of me being scum.

So everyone else, does Mac's "Xiao was planning to frame me" argument make sense?

If I'm scum, then it makes perfect sense. And it also makes perfect sense if Mac is scum. The only way it doesn't make sense is if we're both town.

[frog]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

If SCUMXIAO encourages HEAVILYSUSPECTEDSCUMBUTSTILLTOWNMAC to vote him,

IF I DID VOTE XIAO, then Xiao could easily manipulate this and say "Look, no quickhammer, Mac is scum, lynch." This would not result in a quickhammer if he was the scum and he would know that and use it to his advantage because I'm so suspect. THIS WOULD GET TOWN ON MY WAGON. Then all he needs is his scumbuddy and scum win. How hard is this for you too grasp?

I didn't vote Xiao because I thought it was a trap.

Last paragraph doesn't even make sense, stop talking shit. That does NOT answer my question of "why would I effectively hammer Mutley if I could've waited for the inevitable to be done by others?"

But it wouldn't, see, because that could also mean that Xiao was scum and you were town. It wouldn't result in a quickhammer if

either

of you were scum, not just if he were scum. You're ignoring half of the situation, but ironically (since you're using this to say you're town), you're focussing on your own scumminess in these scenarios.

You'd hammer Mutley because you didn't want to wait, because you'd attracted attention by claiming I was scum with Mutley, and if you look at the last few posts of D2 you'll see your vote is horribly placed and completely unjustified in your post. Not only that, it came at a moment when your accusation was petering out. This combination of actions is incredibly scummy and you were essentially hammering to stop any discussion occurring (which, likely, would have been about you).
Hammering a townie a few days into D2 is not a town action. Why do you seem to think it is?

Things you've done since D3 started:
-claimed vanilla
-said don't lynch me we'll lose
-started off by saying how scummy Xiao was for asking you to vote him (but it doesn't help scum either? Unless you believe that much in your rather shaky dreamed-up scenario)
-in 478 you go back and sheep the dead Mutley; 'he made perfect sense'. How convenient.
-engaged in complete non-arguments or pushed an argument that has another side that everyone can see (I'm referring to the 'if I vote Xiao he'll use it to say I'm scum' stuff when in practice, this could be the opposite. You claimed that he was seeking to frame you but this is impossible given the either/or situation)
-put forward a massive non-argument in 529 to deflect attention away from your quicklynch of Mutley.

Now tell me which actions can be said by scum or would be done by scum to save his hide. Not a single thing you've done today reads town, except for asking us to wait for you to get back.

Nic's ISO is quite scummy, he's flown under the radar for much of the game but nothing screams awful apart from sheeping Xiao's vote. That said, one difference between him and you is that he's fully explained himself (in a way that can actually be understood without people asking for clarification), and, unlike what you're saying now, it actually makes sense. Spadille was pretty scummy but then he only had 3 posts. Fsnake looked pretty town to me.
I can see the two of you being scum together and you're bussing each other so that when one flips scum the other gets towncred.

@Nic: yes, it makes sense, but not for the point he's trying to make.

[Mac]

Are people missing the part where I thought Xiao would manipulate it if he were scum to get one town on the wagon and then his buddy to win?

Frog/Xiao/Didi - why would scumMac quickhammer Mutley?

[Didi]

Uhm, why wouldn't scum quickhammer a townie? Almost no discussion so information for town, less leads for us to go on, etc. And you get a townie away for free. He was going to get lynched regardless probably, but you certainly sped it up.

[Mac]

And the discussion would be who his partner could be...? If he was town, that would be irrelevant discussion which scum would want to go on.

And regardless, Nic was also on the Mutley wagon.

[Didi]

Your argument doesn't hold. Discussion is still discussion, regardless of Mutley's status. You can always weed out information from it, and a shorter one is never beneficial.

[frog]

For scum, no discussion is better than irrelevant discussion, since discussion almost always gets information for the town. We may have been able to root out scum in the time remaining, but as it stands, you denied us that possibility. Don't claim that what we'd have done in two entire weeks of discussion would all have been irrelevant, because chances are a lot of information would have come out.

Yes, Nic, you, Xiao, and Mutley were on the Mutley wagon. What's your point?

[Mac]

Jesus, this is like fighting with a brick wall.

My point is Xiao and Nic could've unvoted too, but didn't.

[frog]

Yeah, you're not the only one who feels like that.
Did they all need to unvote? Only one person did, you just got there first. You then showed us all that the trust was entirely misplaced.

What concerns me though is that this is coming from the guy who told me I was scummy for not (hypothetically) hammering Mutley D1, now on D3 he's saying that Xiao and Nic not unvoting Mutley is scummy. It's like you're spinning every possibility into a scumtell.

[Mac]

I admit I fucked up, if town lose here it's entirely my fault.

That was because I thought Mutley was scum, and now we know he's town. That just further prows I didn't actually know his role as I was accusing you of being buddies.

[NicCage]

I'm absolutely baffled that you all think Xiao's vote on Mac could be a trap to PROVE that he is scum. It is mathematically impossible, I'm 100% serious.
In this situation let's pretend Xiao is scum. Xiao votes for Mac. This proves nothing about the alignment of either because Mac can't be quickhammered because there is only one nonvoting scum.
Similarly if Mac is scum and Xiao votes for him he won't be quickhammered. So no matter who is scum in this situation NO ONE WILL BE HAMMERED.
So if no one is hammered in either situation, the fact that no one gets hammered proves nothing, therefore there is no trap.
Does this make sense?

I don't think #419 is a strong towntell. Didi flips around a bunch on reads early D1 without really trying to follow through on any of them. He's sure Mutley is scum, then back off once Xeg and MP5 read him as town. MP5 makes a case on Didi, and Didi's defense is that he doesn't really know what he's doing. Ok, I can live with that.
But later in the day Didi sheeps MP5 and frog on slimer without any hesitation or scumhunting, he see's it as an easy lynch.
Onto D2, he stops Mac wanting a quicklynch, which is a town thing to do, but when he says he wants more information he doesn't go out and make any. All he does is pose a far fetched scenario. I think this is an attempt to pick up towncred while waiting out the inevitable Mutley lynch.

This is why I think you're scum Didi.

[NicCage]

But yeah Xiao, you're right in #531, but that is a possibility from your perspective, not from mine.
And that's an interesting point actually, you could be scum with Mac and your vote on him could be a gambit. But I seriously doubt that is the case.

[Mac]

Are people missing the part where I thought Xiao would manipulate it if he were scum to get one town on the wagon and then his buddy to win?

Frog/Xiao/Didi - why would scumMac quickhammer Mutley?

[NicCage]

Why would a townie be convinced by that if it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not you or Xiao is scum? It still doesn't make sense.

[Mac]

Because most people see me as scum right now?

Stop playing dumb.

[NicCage]

I'm not playing dumb, I'm saying that you're wrong. A townie wouldn't or shouldn't have been convinced by the argument you said you thought Xiao was going to make. If most people see you as scum then they would be voting you on the other merits of the case against you.

[Xiao Long]

But yeah Xiao, you're right in #531, but that is a possibility from your perspective, not from mine.
And that's an interesting point actually, you could be scum with Mac and your vote on him could be a gambit. But I seriously doubt that is the case.

What about it makes it not a possibility from your perspective?

Most people should be in agreement that at least you or Mac is scum.
The only possible scenarios atm are:
1. Both you and Mac are scum.
or
2. One of you and Mac are scum, and one of me, Frog and Didi are scum.
It's impossible for both you and Mac to be town since the two scum would have ended the game already.

Does anyone disagree with this?

[NicCage]

It is not a possibility from my perspective because I know my own alignment.

I agree with that.

[frog]

It's fact, there's nothing to disagree about. Those are the only 2 possible scenarios.