Micro 152 - BSG Mafia (Galactica Survives?)

[Lurker]

Well, I watched 4 videos about happy wheels, played some happy wheels, then watched some. Interact vids, skyped for 0 minutes, and then. Exked this.

Ispellcheck is annoying.

[fferyllt]

That's irrelevant crap. Are you reading the game thread? It looks kinda like you just skim a page or two and post something that vaguely ties to the most recent discussion.

[Lurker]

Close, I read until page ten, and about the last 5 pages.

The rest is a grey area.

[AngryPidgeon]

Vote Count 1.20

SafetyDance [3/5] - orcinus_theoriginal, fferyllt, Syryana
fferyllt [3/5] - Deltabacon, Nero, buldermar
buldermar [1/5] - Lurker
Lurker [1/5] - SafetyDance
Nero [1/5] - pitoli


Pacifists (Not Voting):

Deadline: April 16th at Noon (GMT-8)

(expired on 2013-04-16 12:00:00)

Mod Notes:

*Deltabacon is V/LA through the 7th

[pitoli]

Close, I read until page ten, and about the last 5 pages.

The rest is a grey area.

Seems legit.

[fferyllt]

Close, I read until page ten, and about the last 5 pages.

The rest is a grey area.

Seems legit.

Yeah it's a great basis for putting votes down. Not.

[Syryana]

I'm becoming torn between SD and Lurker. They're both so.... lynchable.

[fferyllt]

SD has posted some genuinely hinky stuff. I'm interested in reading what he posts tomorrow.

[pitoli]

SD has posted some genuinely hinky stuff. I'm interested in reading what he posts tomorrow.

Considering the thread in its current lull, I hope we can get to tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

I mean calendar tomorrow. SD said he'd be back to reply to my posts then.

[buldermar]

Yes, in your second post after I called you out on the implicit assumption in your first post, you said "should you turn out to be town".

I have to go back through this. It's at the root of my uncertainties about you. After I got past the WKing I still had this, along with your apparently not getting that a Kara Thrace safe claim should not have been wasted on a VT role claim. In one post, it looked like you were even arguing that I'd claimed a power role.

I don't have any flavor knowledge at all, but I know on theoretical grounds alone that you can't use it as an argument for being town. I believe I've pointed out why at least three times already - don't make me do it again.

Please do point out in what post I was arguing that you had claimed a power role and additionally, regardless of whether or not you succesfully pull such post out of your little scum-hat, explain to me why it should be indicative of alignment in the first place.

[buldermar]

In fact, I unvoted expecting to be today's lynch though I am constitutionally unable to just accept that and not fight it even when I think my cardflip sooner rather than later would help town.

This is some elaborate fence-sitting that's advantageous for you as scum because it allows you to act pro-town by advocating your own lynch for the better of town while still in reality fighting it.

I don't know what I'll do when push comes to shove. I have self-voted in the past when I thought my situation or my role indicated it was better for town if I were out of the game. In one case, I did that and it probably lost the game for town two days later, so I'm more cautious now than in the past. No matter how snake-bitten I may appear to be as town. As scum, I have tactically self-voted a few times with no intention of keeping my vote on myself. My self-voting prior to when it matters won't tell much about my alignment.

A majority-lynch mechanic is different from what I'm used to, and self-votes have a totally different impact from the type of games I've played elsewhere.

Okay, I'll ask you so that we get a clear answer. If you're getting to L-1 and there is no appropriate counter-wagon, and if both of orc and I agrees that you should be todays lynch, would you self-vote? Yes or no.

Right now, your agreement would be irrelevant. If orcinus thinks I should self-hammer and I think I should self-hammer I absolutely will. If he doesn't and I think I should, I don't know what I'll do, yet.

Yeah see you're still fence-sitting like crazy because you can just pull the last minut "I don't think I should self-hammer" stunt and claim that you never said you would. Thus, it's utterly useless with respect to your alignment.

[buldermar]

I'm trying to search for other games where you've lectured someone about self-voting. I keep getting a gateway time-out. :/

Please do - also make sure to read all of the games in which I explain the difference between arguing from a global vantage point and arguing from a local vantage point, as you still seem not to fully grasp that concept.

[buldermar]

No, it does not "boil down" to that. Read the last sentence.

I think discussing this with you is a waste of time at this point. You're obviously going to insist in your perspective if you're scum and if you're town you really should have read me clearly as town by now.

Why would I have dropped it in the first place if I were scum? You can try to handwave away that I got you to L-2 in a hurry, with at least one other player having indicated they were leaning scum on you. But, there is hard evidence of that in the game thread. It was a conscious decision on my part that would increase the likelihood of my lynch.

You would have dropped it in the first place as scum because you were likely getting lynched if you didn't. But that's all besides the fact that you can't use it as an indicator of alignment when it's a decision in your hands, as I've also explained several times. I'm getting quite annoyed here.

[buldermar]

If it was so likely to increase the likelihood of your lynch as you insinuate aren't you surprised that nobody is calling me out for claiming that it isn't?

[buldermar]

Fascinating - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4651393

There's a time for self-voting - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4366255

An analysis of a self-vote that was rescinded - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4290177

I was hoping to find a a game where buldermar emphaticly told someone else that self-voting is anti-town, and to see that he didn't make any sort of "If you are town" qualification. I didn't find that. His argument to me about not self-voting doesn't quite line up with the above posts, though.

In the firts game, I promised to self-vote the following day if we lynched the person of my choice because

I knew that the person was scum with more than 90% certainty.

How the hell is that related to this situation?

In the second quote I'm stating

exactly the opposite

of what you're insinuating, namely that

you should not self-vote.

In addition, you would have known this had you read the other posts of that game regarding self-voting. For instance:

buldermar, why so much corner case theory talk and no vote?

Your statement entails self-voting being optimal under certain circumstances. Since this is wrong for this setup, me neglecting pointing it out would lead to a net utility loss from the town perspective relative to if I do point it out. I sincerely disagree that pointing something out that would lead to a decreasement in the odds of town winning if omitted qualifies as corner case theory talk.

As for the lack of vote, that's a simple one: I'm convinced that I can obtain more information during this day and thus make a more qualified estimate of peoples alignment before voting. The difference between voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched

and

not voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched is negligible when voting person A is unreasoned (as is the case with random votes). In other words, I simply prefer to postpone voting until I have preferences regarding who to lynch (i.e. until I have some information to base my vote on).

You might object that the random votes themselves is a valid method to obtain such information, and that's in my opinion reasonable. However, I think that discussion without the random votes is an equally valid and viable method.

FWIW I'd like to be proven wrong as the general consensus seems to be that RVS is a necessity.

In the final quote I also explain that self-voting is anti-town, as it's more advantageous for scum than town.

So, let's summarize this.

1) You use a game in which I already know for a fact that a player is scum. In this game, I tried to make people vote that person (and succeeded IIRC) by promising to self-vote and by proposing a signature bet (which I was subsequently banned for). In this game I make no qualification of "if you're town", so that's a blatant lie.

2) You insinuate that I'm saying "there is a time for self-voting" when I am in fact saying

the exact opposite

in the second link. I state that, in this setup, self-voting is always bad, as evident not only from that post alone but also other posts in the same game made by me on the same topic. This is another blatant lie from you.

3) In the final quote I explain precisely that self-voting is anti-town, as you claim to be hoping to find. You probably didn't read that post carefully, did you? How unfortunate to pretend to be a busy and thorough town player and then make such a subtle but significant slip.

If it isn't already obvious, consider my vote firmly placed on ff and the only reason that I am going to consider voting someone else is if there is no way she's getting lynched today.

If you don't really want to read into the games she linked, just do me a favor and read the 2nd linked post and tell me how on earth I am stating that "there is a time for self-voting" in that post.

[buldermar]

This is really the first game we've ever played where we've engaged anywhere near this much. Maybe it just takes a good serious shitfest of a game to work things out. If so, I hope one game is enough. In one case it took almost a year's worth of games before one player and I got past the day 1 sledge phase.

Maybe in our next game you wont be scum and things will be a bit easier for you.

[buldermar]

CAN WE PLEASE JUST LYNCH ff ALREADY?

[buldermar]

orc, vote ff and you can have my vote tomorrow if I'm alive.

[Nero]

you can have my vote as well, orc

[fferyllt]

Yes, in your second post after I called you out on the implicit assumption in your first post, you said "should you turn out to be town".

I have to go back through this. It's at the root of my uncertainties about you. After I got past the WKing I still had this, along with your apparently not getting that a Kara Thrace safe claim should not have been wasted on a VT role claim. In one post, it looked like you were even arguing that I'd claimed a power role.

I don't have any flavor knowledge at all, but I know on theoretical grounds alone that you can't use it as an argument for being town. I believe I've pointed out why at least three times already - don't make me do it again.

Please do point out in what post I was arguing that you had claimed a power role and additionally, regardless of whether or not you succesfully pull such post out of your little scum-hat, explain to me why it should be indicative of alignment in the first place.

This one.

Ofc you'd use a great fake power role claim if it would keep you alive -

which is exactly what you're attempting to make it do right now.

Will read 309 tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

CAN WE PLEASE JUST LYNCH ff ALREADY?

This post looks fed up and frustrated.

That's exactly how I feel as well.

But, it does at least look like town frustration. I don't think I've ever seen someone this certain I'm scum and wrong before. Well, maybe once, but the guy had a lot of issues.

orc, vote me please, and I'll hammer.

[fferyllt]

Lynch SD next, please.

and sort pitoli.

[buldermar]

Yes, in your second post after I called you out on the implicit assumption in your first post, you said "should you turn out to be town".

I have to go back through this. It's at the root of my uncertainties about you. After I got past the WKing I still had this, along with your apparently not getting that a Kara Thrace safe claim should not have been wasted on a VT role claim. In one post, it looked like you were even arguing that I'd claimed a power role.

I don't have any flavor knowledge at all, but I know on theoretical grounds alone that you can't use it as an argument for being town. I believe I've pointed out why at least three times already - don't make me do it again.

Please do point out in what post I was arguing that you had claimed a power role and additionally, regardless of whether or not you succesfully pull such post out of your little scum-hat, explain to me why it should be indicative of alignment in the first place.

This one.

Ofc you'd use a great fake power role claim if it would keep you alive -

which is exactly what you're attempting to make it do right now.

Will read 309 tomorrow.

I'll admit that was phrased poorly, but given the context it should be quite obvious to you that what I meant is that you'd ofc use a great fake flavor role claim that's commonly attributed a power role if it would keep you alive.

[buldermar]

CAN WE PLEASE JUST LYNCH ff ALREADY?

This post looks fed up and frustrated.

That's exactly how I feel as well.

But, it does at least look like town frustration. I don't think I've ever seen someone this certain I'm scum and wrong before. Well, maybe once, but the guy had a lot of issues.

orc, vote me please, and I'll hammer.

Pls orc.