Micro 152 - BSG Mafia (Galactica Survives?)

[buldermar]

VOTE: fferyllt

SD next please.

what were you?

What the fuck do you mean? You must be thinking worse of her game that I suspected.

[buldermar]

Town.

It's not quite 4 am my time. If there's anything you want to talk about before nightfall, make it quick.

Yeah. What the hell were you doing with these links to my previous games?

[buldermar]

I'm trying to think of a town motivation for misrepresenting the content in that manner and I really can't.

[fferyllt]

I still think you either don't or pretend to not understand the point I am trying to convey. I'd go as far as stating that because I'm making the point I'm making, I must think highly of your scum game.

If this is honest, then you have no idea what the parameters of my scum game are.

[fferyllt]

I'm trying to think of a town motivation for misrepresenting the content in that manner and I really can't.

I didn't misrepresent them IMO. I found them and linked them for players to read and make up their own minds if your advice to me was in line with your prior discussions.

So, should I have taken your earlier advice about self-hammering? Or should I have done what I said I would and you said I wouldn't - self hammer if orc agreed I should go?

[buldermar]

Funny that buldermar disappeared. I thought he'd have a few last questions for me too.

About this, I think contacting me on gchat to get me to post in this game while you can still post is not okay even though you're lynched. That being said, I'm going to assume that everything you've written has been honest and can be used tomorrow. If you want to change your mind on something specifically, or want to point out that you didn't mean what you wrote in any particular posts at the time you wrote them, please do so.

[buldermar]

We're going to need one more vote once she doesn't hammer, but it should be obvious for even the retards in this game that she's scum at that point.

Quoting for posterity.

If he's scum and convinced me to take myself out of the game, it will color every game interaction we have until the heat death of the universe.

I can't believe you're still seriously entertaining the idea of me being scum, but whatever.

[buldermar]

I still think you either don't or pretend to not understand the point I am trying to convey. I'd go as far as stating that because I'm making the point I'm making, I must think highly of your scum game.

If this is honest, then you have no idea what the parameters of my scum game are.

It is, so I suppose I don't.

[fferyllt]

Given that you can be reasonably sure now that you are talking to town-me, is there anything about the game from this point forward that you want to talk about?

[buldermar]

I'm trying to think of a town motivation for misrepresenting the content in that manner and I really can't.

I didn't misrepresent them IMO. I found them and linked them for players to read and make up their own minds if your advice to me was in line with your prior discussions.

So, should I have taken your earlier advice about self-hammering? Or should I have done what I said I would and you said I wouldn't - self hammer if orc agreed I should go?

Okay I am going to point out that you indeed did misrepresent them in my subsequent post.

I think that because you're VT and because I wasn't going to seriously look into the possibility of lynching anyone else it is a close call. If you put an orc-gun to my head, I'd have to say that you shouldn't have done it, even if you would have gotten lynched anyway, because we would have gotten one more vote on you to do bandwagon analysis from. And in the case that we somehow didn't, lynching someone else who actually has a possibility of being scum (as oppose to you since you're town), wouldn't have been that bad either. Worst case would be a no-lynch followed by lynching you on day 2, but that's pretty unlikely.

[fferyllt]

We're going to need one more vote once she doesn't hammer, but it should be obvious for even the retards in this game that she's scum at that point.

Quoting for posterity.

If he's scum and convinced me to take myself out of the game, it will color every game interaction we have until the heat death of the universe.

I can't believe you're still seriously entertaining the idea of me being scum, but whatever.

I'm still flabbergasted and incredulous that town-you could misread me this badly, to the point that nothing I've posted since I put a vote on you struck you as coming from a town PoV.

[buldermar]

There's a time for self-voting - viewtopic.php?p=4366255#p4366255

Read this quote carefully in addition to the one below from the same game:

buldermar, why so much corner case theory talk and no vote?

Your statement entails self-voting being optimal under certain circumstances. Since this is wrong for this setup, me neglecting pointing it out would lead to a net utility loss from the town perspective relative to if I do point it out. I sincerely disagree that pointing something out that would lead to a decreasement in the odds of town winning if omitted qualifies as corner case theory talk.

As for the lack of vote, that's a simple one: I'm convinced that I can obtain more information during this day and thus make a more qualified estimate of peoples alignment before voting. The difference between voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched

and

not voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched is negligible when voting person A is unreasoned (as is the case with random votes). In other words, I simply prefer to postpone voting until I have preferences regarding who to lynch (i.e. until I have some information to base my vote on).

You might object that the random votes themselves is a valid method to obtain such information, and that's in my opinion reasonable. However, I think that discussion without the random votes is an equally valid and viable method.

FWIW I'd like to be proven wrong as the general consensus seems to be that RVS is a necessity.

Do you really think I am arguing that there is a place for self-voting?

[Nero]

[buldermar]

Given that you can be reasonably sure now that you are talking to town-me, is there anything about the game from this point forward that you want to talk about?

I don't know, I kind of build up my perception of this game on the premise that you'd flip scum - at least since the last couple of pages. I'm going to have to thoroughly reread the game either today or, if I'm not nk'ed, tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

There's a time for self-voting - viewtopic.php?p=4366255#p4366255

Read this quote carefully in addition to the one below from the same game:

buldermar, why so much corner case theory talk and no vote?

Your statement entails self-voting being optimal under certain circumstances. Since this is wrong for this setup, me neglecting pointing it out would lead to a net utility loss from the town perspective relative to if I do point it out. I sincerely disagree that pointing something out that would lead to a decreasement in the odds of town winning if omitted qualifies as corner case theory talk.

As for the lack of vote, that's a simple one: I'm convinced that I can obtain more information during this day and thus make a more qualified estimate of peoples alignment before voting. The difference between voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched

and

not voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched is negligible when voting person A is unreasoned (as is the case with random votes). In other words, I simply prefer to postpone voting until I have preferences regarding who to lynch (i.e. until I have some information to base my vote on).

You might object that the random votes themselves is a valid method to obtain such information, and that's in my opinion reasonable. However, I think that discussion without the random votes is an equally valid and viable method.

FWIW I'd like to be proven wrong as the general consensus seems to be that RVS is a necessity.

Do you really think I am arguing that there is a place for self-voting?

You argued that it was "wrong for this setup", not that it was wrong, period. But, I'll grant that my label overstated what I'd gathered from this discussion.

[buldermar]

We're going to need one more vote once she doesn't hammer, but it should be obvious for even the retards in this game that she's scum at that point.

Quoting for posterity.

If he's scum and convinced me to take myself out of the game, it will color every game interaction we have until the heat death of the universe.

I can't believe you're still seriously entertaining the idea of me being scum, but whatever.

I'm still flabbergasted and incredulous that town-you could misread me this badly, to the point that nothing I've posted since I put a vote on you struck you as coming from a town PoV.

There was at least one post that struck me as coming from town and I know I perhaps should have mentioned it but I was still sufficiently convinced that you were town and I didn't want to risk being mislynched over also reading a post as town while insisting on your lynch.

[buldermar]

There's a time for self-voting - viewtopic.php?p=4366255#p4366255

Read this quote carefully in addition to the one below from the same game:

buldermar, why so much corner case theory talk and no vote?

Your statement entails self-voting being optimal under certain circumstances. Since this is wrong for this setup, me neglecting pointing it out would lead to a net utility loss from the town perspective relative to if I do point it out. I sincerely disagree that pointing something out that would lead to a decreasement in the odds of town winning if omitted qualifies as corner case theory talk.

As for the lack of vote, that's a simple one: I'm convinced that I can obtain more information during this day and thus make a more qualified estimate of peoples alignment before voting. The difference between voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched

and

not voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched is negligible when voting person A is unreasoned (as is the case with random votes). In other words, I simply prefer to postpone voting until I have preferences regarding who to lynch (i.e. until I have some information to base my vote on).

You might object that the random votes themselves is a valid method to obtain such information, and that's in my opinion reasonable. However, I think that discussion without the random votes is an equally valid and viable method.

FWIW I'd like to be proven wrong as the general consensus seems to be that RVS is a necessity.

Do you really think I am arguing that there is a place for self-voting?

You argued that it was "wrong for this setup", not that it was wrong, period. But, I'll grant that my label overstated what I'd gathered from this discussion.

Well especially that part made me think that you could not possibly be misrepresenting me like this as town - especially not since you at the time didn't even think i was scum. I think there is in particular one post that I misread...

[pitoli]

Fery, were there any connections between players that you picked up on that'd be good to check tomorrow? Anything from subtle to blatant

[buldermar]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

[buldermar]

Town:
orcinus
Syryana

How certain are you of these? I only feel very certain about orc, but I agree that Syr is the second most town-looking player.

[fferyllt]

I'm very apprehensive of how quickly we got to L-1 on ffery. The last few pages have been weird honestly and hard for me to read a la ffery's and buldermar's new cases. I like that buldermar at least unvoted whilst not backing down from his position, that makes him seem more town to me than anything else he's done.

Lurker and Nero just seem opportunistic to me, I'd be willing to lynch either of them until they become more open with their reads/reactions to the last couple of pages.

@Sryrana - what made you change your vote so quickly?

@Ffery - I feel like town should fight harder against their own mislynch since you're at least confirmed to yourself, no matter how great your doubts are on another town-looking mislynch. Do you think your lynch would provide the town with the most information?

Never watched BSG so I really don't get the references/significance of claiming Kara, I think that particular point is moot.

I think in general you are right about fighting mislynch. If I am all but certain to be mislynched sooner or later, then sooner may be better, especially if there's something worthwhile to be learned from the bandwagon.

LOL you pretty much confirmed yourself as scum in this post. If you were town and actually considered me scum you'd think that succesfully getting me lynched would close to confirm you as being town. However, if you're scum who pretends to be thinking that I'm scum but actually knows that I'm not you'd make

exactly

this kind of slip, knowing that

even if

you get me lynched, you'll be up next once I flip.

Please attempt to explain yourself out of this one.

VOTE: ff

Yep, I wrote that in the middle of my first "what if I'm wrong?" brainstorm.

[fferyllt]

Fery, were there any connections between players that you picked up on that'd be good to check tomorrow? Anything from subtle to blatant

The main thing I picked up was that neither you nor SD had a scum read on me. It looked like distancing.

You could argue that Lurker also distanced but he's completely disconnected from the game afaict.

[fferyllt]

Town:
orcinus
Syryana

How certain are you of these? I only feel very certain about orc, but I agree that Syr is the second most town-looking player.

Less sure about Syryana, but stronger than any other player besides orcinus.

[Nero]

pitoli, orc & buld are town

[pitoli]

Fery, were there any connections between players that you picked up on that'd be good to check tomorrow? Anything from subtle to blatant

The main thing I picked up was that neither you nor SD had a scum read on me. It looked like distancing.

In truth I thought your paranoia always made you look rather town...