Newbie 1356 (OVER)

[Varsoon]

Sorry Varsoon, I had a brain fart and didn't realize that the votes on the previous owner of your slot would be transferred onto you.

VOTE: RadientCowbells

Because most of his activity is complaining about the low activity.

It's k, it happens sometimes. On my first game, we had replacements as many as 20 pages deep.

Hey, look, there is low activity. It's hard to be active when you're two pages in. Almost everything is parking meaningless votes, reaction testing, etc.

That said, does anyone have any serious town or scum reads?

[Varsoon]

SE #2 here.

Vote dexter9264

Named after a serial killer

Not to be totally RVS here, but--
How do you know it's not after any other Dexter, such as the titular character of Dexter's Lab?
Scumslipping hard, bro.

@mist I meant people who have no games recorded on the site, because I stalk people pre-game.

Also to actually get some questions and answers down, if forced to make a choice between lynching two equally scummy players, would it be better to lynch the more experienced one? In other words, is it worth risking the loss of an experienced townie to avoid the risk of leaving an experienced scum alive?

I would argue that experienced scum have a far easier job in convincing newbies to play badly than the experienced town have in convincing them to play well, so I would be slightly inclined to lynch the more experienced player. Of course, this doesn't take precedence over actual reads, and it certainly wouldn't be enough to justify a quick-lynch.

I would be particularly interested to see what our SE's and IC think about lynching experienced players, as they might end up at the receiving end of this.

I'd rather lynch the newb. Why? It prevents you underestimating them, and, furthermore, you can meta the experienced ones. Every scum has the same level of power in the game (that is, a night kill) outside of PRs, so if it's equally likely that both are scum, the question becomes not so much who holds tangible power but what the nature of intangible power is.

Freshman

: if someone acted scummy and then replaced out, should you continue believing that his replacement is scum?

Zoggoth

: Are you for or against lynching an experienced player Day 1?

DDD

: do you believe that since you are the most experienced, that your faction has a higher chance of winning? Also should we be taking your word over someone else's?

Mutleyddmc

: What do you want your legacy this game to be? When it's all over, what do you want to be remembered for?

Aphelion72

: Please give us a good reason not to lynch you D1

Mist7676

and

Paid Pyro

: Being the SE's I'm curious about what you have to say on a Day 1 lynch of the IC. He is the most experienced player, and could very well lead scum to victory if he is scum.

Radiant Cowbells

: Should a town player ever lie about his role? What if that player is a VT? What if that player is a power role?

Since I replaced Freshman, I'll answer this.
It depends on what the replacement does. Interesting that you ask this question to Freshman, who then replaced out. It's almost like you knew! That foresight will be nice to have. Anyway, in my first game, we all found one guy to be scummy, he replaced out, we found the replacement to be scummy, and when he replaced again, we voted him. He flipped scum. What's important is to do your reads and ISOs and take into consideration every post made by that slot.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Check Mutley's previous games. He tends to act as scum as possible, because if he only betrays scum tells, he's got nothing to hide if he is scum.

I have a better idea, why don't you link me to where he's said this in public.

[Varsoon]

Check Mutley's previous games. He tends to act as scum as possible, because if he only betrays scum tells, he's got nothing to hide if he is scum.

I have a better idea, why don't you link me to where he's said this in public.

A few errata:
previous game*

because if her only betrays scum tells,*


Also,

Hm i see a vote because somebody is missing an avatar still as a random vote.
"to vote for a reason" means for me suspicion of scum, other than that it is rv, especially Page 1. At least in my eyes it is.

For me it was more interesting that Mutley was so eager to get the vote off him.
Why so afraid of one random vote Mutley?

ahhhh man, you caught me, I'm mafia. Redhanded how did you guess.

He flipped town that game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And you don't see a difference between blatently claiming scum which is obvious and obnoxious and clearly not a slip with threatening players with death via lynch or night-kill which could possibly be a slip?

[Varsoon]

And you don't see a difference between blatently claiming scum which is obvious and obnoxious and clearly not a slip with threatening players with death via lynch or night-kill which could possibly be a slip?

They're both essentially the same.
I'm not saying he's confirmed town or scum at the moment, but to instead take in the previous (and only, on this site) game that he's played and see that he's already been mislynched once because of exactly that kind of reaction.
I'd rather lynch scum than town, if I can help it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

They're both essentially the same.

In what ways are "is not a slip" and "could be a slip" essentially the same?

[Varsoon]

They're both essentially the same.

In what ways are "is not a slip" and "could be a slip" essentially the same?

You're twisting it here.
I'm saying that
"I am mafia."
and
"You'll be nightkilled."
are the same in the fact that they both can be expressions that one person is mafia-affiliated.
Both assume agency on the writer's behalf.
The second is less explicit, as a townie could also say "you'll be nightkilled."
My response was that explicitly town/mafia affiliated posts should not be read into as much at this point of the game from Mutley, since he has, as town, posted explicitly mafia-oriented posts and, as it seemed, even played against his wincon as town.
I'll go further now to say that any explicit role-claims should be dismissed in RVS because they amount to nothing more than disorientation on the behalf of all players and they can not be proven unless they are flipped via lynch.

Now, if you want to continue to read that as a definitive scum slip, feel free to. I'm simply saying that, from my position, as someone who watched/is still watching Mutley's previous game, I do not think it is as indicative of his role as you believe.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm twisting nothing, I'm just digging for truth here and the only way you can support your position is what you're doing right now and suggesting essentially that we either can't or shouldn't ever read any subtext into anything another player says and by logical extension that any slips we ever find are intentional by the player and thus meaningless. As far as I can tell given those suggestions I have no idea how you plan to find scum outside of power roles because clearly every scummy action, slip, or mistake someone takes will have a meaning intended by them, assuming otherwise would deny them agency.

[Varsoon]

I'm twisting nothing, I'm just digging for truth here and the only way you can support your position is what you're doing right now and suggesting essentially that we either can't or shouldn't ever read any subtext into anything another player says and by logical extension that any slips we ever find are intentional by the player and thus meaningless. As far as I can tell given those suggestions I have no idea how you plan to find scum outside of power roles because clearly every scummy action, slip, or mistake someone takes will have a meaning intended by them, assuming otherwise would deny them agency.

The twisting done was when you wrote "In what ways are 'is not a slip' and 'could be a slip' essentially the same?"
This assumes that the quote that I made from Mutley was a town-made scumbluff and that the post you're referring to is a possible slip.
It re-textualizes the things, as, in their original incarnate forms, they are as I explained them in post 57.
That's twisting things.

I'm saying that

during RVS

, role-claims are less substantial than you'd think and that most subtext shouldn't be read into.

And, yes, the only way to truly know a player's role before a lynch or kill flips their role is to be an informed minority.

The whole purpose of the game is to piece together evidence and suppositions made throughout the posts in the thread and to lynch players who you believe to be mafia based off of their actions and how they position themselves. This will never be a sure-footed task.


VOTE: Debonair Danny DiPietro

1. I don't like that you're trying to put so much weight on what may or may not be a slip by Mutley. It seems desperate for an early, uninformed lynch.
2. You twisted my argument and supplanted your own interpretation--one that paints me as a fool.
3.The entire back and forth between us is outside of the immediate game, and the fact that you've engaged it so long makes it seem like fluff on your end, especially since it makes certain personal affronts that will likely garner a response (see point 2).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The twisting done was when you wrote "In what ways are 'is not a slip' and 'could be a slip' essentially the same?"
This assumes that the quote that I made from Mutley was a town-made scumbluff and that the post you're referring to is a possible slip.
It re-textualizes the things, as, in their original incarnate forms, they are as I explained them in post 57.

Of course it re-textualized things... to force a straight answer from you. In case A, Mutley has already flipped town but claimed scum thus his statement there cannot be a scum slip. In case B, Mutley is an unknown but has made a statement that could indicate he is scum thus it is a possible scum slip. These are facts. Twisting implies I distorted the truth when the truth is I simply boiled the situation down to it's essence so you couldn't hide behind word games.

I'm saying that during RVS, role-claims are less substantial than you'd think and that most subtext shouldn't be read into.

And I'm saying it's not a role claim which would be treated differently because there is essentially no chance of someone going "hey I'm scum" at any point in the game without intending to say it like that. Over zealously making a joke and revealing inside information on the other hand could be a mistake that scum might make.

~~

1. If I'm so desperate for his lynch why haven't I voted him, why haven't I prodded anyone else to vote for him, and why am I bothering with you at all?
2. I twisted nothing, if you believe you are being treated as a fool then it's because you've acted in a manner conistent with such.
3. The fact that I've engaged you so long is me prodding to get a better feel if Mutley scum-slipped and then in your urge to cover for him you scum-slipped in that he told you/your slot his strategy to behave purposefully scummy and you blurted that out in his defense. I think everyone would agree that's a perfectly reasonable course of action given what's going on.

[Varsoon]

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree at this point, mostly because our back and forth is a whole third of the game right now.

I would like to express two things, though:
I am town.
I am not an ally of Mutley's. In fact, I can't stand his posting style or how he's played the game so far. I'd probably have a vote on him now, if only to lynch him as a player, but I must put personal desires aside for what's best for town. I hope he's scum this game, so that if we lynch him, it'll be all the better.

[dexter9264]

Ughh I would hate if Mutley ended up being scum and we just never lynched him since we assumed he was just town playing as scum.
RadiantCowbells hasn't done much either, but I'm more willing to attribute that to just the RVS stage and fooling around rather than actively trying to play like scum since he actually did useful stuff in his previous game.

[Mist7676]

This back and forth between you two was interesting. I am throwing the Varsoon + DDD scumteam idea out the window. But, it wasn't there in the first place.

Mutley's posting style is a bit horrendous. But it can be used to his advantage, maybe saying, I claim scum in all my games, this isn't scummy for me. Also, the fact it was done during RVS, makes it less substantial. If he did this later in the game, now that'd be something to watch out for.

[RadiantCowbells]

Vote: Mutley

Seriously douchebaggy style of play, not working towards town win condition, just trying to get himself a meta.
Or can he be replaced? I don't want to play with one potential town acting scummy all game so that he doesn't look scum when he is scum.

[Varsoon]

Vote: Mutley

Seriously douchebaggy style of play, not working towards town win condition, just trying to get himself a meta.
Or can he be replaced? I don't want to play with one potential town acting scummy all game so that he doesn't look scum when he is scum.

Very tempted to put a vote on him to lynch his playstyle, too, but Policy Lynching usually turns up town. :/

I'd rather get some real scumtells out of people.

[Messiah]

Newbie 1356 - Vote Count 1.4

---

Mutleyddmc [L-3]

- Zoggoth, RadiantCowbells
Varsoon [L-4] - Paid Pyro
Mist7676 [L-4] - Debonair Danny DiPietro
Zoggoth [L-4] - Mist7676
RadiantCowbells [L-4] - shaboostein
shaboostein [L-4] - Mutleyddmc
Debonair Danny DiPietro [L-4] - Varsoon

Not Voting (1):

dexter9264

With nine alive it takes

five

to lynch.

---

Deadline:

(expired on 2013-04-24 20:00:00)

[Varsoon]

Vote: Mutley

Seriously douchebaggy style of play, not working towards town win condition, just trying to get himself a meta.
Or can he be replaced? I don't want to play with one potential town acting scummy all game so that he doesn't look scum when he is scum.

This sounds really town to me, also. Not confirming you for town, but it's a really town thing to say.

[Mutleyddmc]

RC "not working towards a town win" he could easily be talking about himself here with that quote. All he has done is complain about activity but not doing anything to encourage discussion. However I agree with varsoon. It was a very town like post. You should sleep with one eye open tonight RC.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mutleyddmc

You want a meta of claiming scum and being obnoxious to have a better scum game? That's fine, hope you don't mind getting lynched every game as town and based on the odds of it you're going to draw town a fair amount more than scum... idiot.

[Mutleyddmc]

Lol 'meta' what the hell is a meta? Why would I care about one of them? Oh no don't threaten that I will get lynched..... it's a part of the game people have to get lynched why would I care if its me. Idiot

[dexter9264]

Buddy if you're town, you should care if you get lynched. Assuming Mutleytown, you would be the only one that knows your role, besides the two mafioso. To yourself, you would be confirmed town. And we should all do our best to try and keep confirmed town players from dying. So therefore you should be caring since you know a lynch on you is a mislynch.

Now if you're scum, well then you should care too since if you get lynched that's half your team gone right there.

So no matter which team you're on you should be caring. And you're not.

[Mutleyddmc]

Sorry dexter I didn't explain it completely clearly. He was talking about not just this game. I do not care for being lynched its a game you move on to the next one even if you are the first person lynched. I'm not going to be sad and beat myself up about it cos I don't conform to how he wants me to play.

[RadiantCowbells]

Unvote

I have no desire to play with this troll, and I'm not risking wasting a lynch.

Either he needs to be replaced or I do.

This behaviour is completely unacceptable and acting like scum every game to set up a meta of acting scum is not working towards your win condition in any individual game, ie this one.

[Mist7676]

Well, he already revealed he doesn't care about meta. This shows he is acting scum or is scum. Personally, as scum I make jokes about being scum, because it is ironic the town doesn't catch it. Merely for my own amusement. But I see no town motivation in behaving this way.

For that reason

Vote: mutley

if he isn't scum, and this is a mislynch, I'm happy it is a policy lynch.