I have an hour and a half.
I might do it.
You might see.
POST 87 (ICEBOX):
Spoiler:
I didn't put my vote on someone I thought as scummy that early because I was making that statement in passing. Furthermore, I didn't want to start a wagon nearly as much as I wanted to gauge the reaction of that player and other players. Stating someone is scummy and not placing a vote is a bit on an unconventional play, neh? It's sure to get the ball rolling
somewhere
.In regards to absolute statements, I mean ones like "If X, then Y." I noticed a few, and those are really indicative of a manipulative rhetoric that is trying to have the game played in a certain way. You should know that the only rules inherit to Mafia are the ones posted by the Mod. So, yes, in some cases, an 'If X, then Y' statement can be taken to be an iteration of actual rules, but in most cases, it falls under a thought-process that eliminates other variables. Eliminating variables, while the purpose of the game, is also something that scum makes use of in order to better control the flow of the game in their favor. The whole point of town is to discern when that happens. If this makes no sense, /shrug. I'm better at explaining more obtuse things in person. Maybe I'll vocaroo it for you or we can do a skype call.
POST 88 (RACHMARIE):
Spoiler:
↑ RachMarie wrote:@ Varsoon do you have any completed games on site to show that you always do not participate in RVS? No matter what your alignment is?
hmm Sven not sure how to answer that.... I guess I tend to lurk more as scum? Unless I am lurking in all my games due to RL issues...
If you want links to scum and town games for meta, would be happy to provide them for anyone in the game actually not just you.
PEDIT
Which player would that be?
I have one completed game on the site. I did not participate in RVS, but, rather, provided a noob-oriented litmus test based around forcing a post-quota so that I could better gauge the other players in a game where I was the only true noob. It got the ball rolling.
RVS is, to me, a construction made by players because no one knows good ways to begin a game. Or, if they do, they're not putting them into effect. Either way, randomly parking votes is, and will always be, a foolish procedure. I'll get into more of how I feel about RVS and how games should run early on in order to promote a better game experience. Of course, scum love RVS because it allows them the disorientation and clean slate they need in order to win as scum. From the perspective outside of alignment, though? I can't stand RVS.
Meta is a poor strategy to ISO someone. While a certain degree of intertextuality should be assumed, it's much more conducive to play as if nothing exists but this game. More times than not, Meta will complicate things unnecessarily, and all the information you need is within the game currently happening anyway. If it isn't, coax it into being. If you can't, then you will lose the game, no matter which alignment you are.
POST 91 (ICEBOX):
Spoiler:
I don't like doing it.
I'll sometimes post early-game nonsense, but it's usually nonsense with the express purpose of actually getting the game started.
Regardless, please forget about last game.
I was town last game.
You won't know if I am town or not this game until I flip.
So earlier suppositions on my playstyle or how I play as town/scum should be null.
See the previous spoiler for how I feel in regards to Meta.
That said, I'm glad to be in a game with you because I know you're both competent players. It'll be fun.
POST 104 (DOESBOKNOW):
Spoiler:
↑ Does Bo Know wrote:Okay, just started reading for realsies.
Gonna try to post my main thoughts so far; I'll try writing this with my own thought process, meaning I'll type what I think as I read and no worries about repeating anyone's logic.
Firstly, I noticed something skimming through the topic that people were reading each others' games. I'm not meta-ing anyone. Takes too much time. Meta me if you want (check my wiki), but try to limit questions about my meta in here to a minimum.
On to the read:
#27: Rach is concerned that Selkies is pushing a Sven wagon when 1. no one formally agreed and 2. the wagon clearly isn't a wagon yet. Selkie's push could be taken as a joke, or something, but Rach's concern is real, but my gut tells me it's not town-concern.
#33: Sven's reaction reads terribad here. Also calls Rach townie even though she's done basicallynothingtownie. At most, her 27 is suspicious.
#43: Icebox's been posting fluff by page 2. OH SHIT SCUMTELL. (But not really.)
#50: Varsoon comes in and says something is super scum, yet doesn't vote. So I can't tell if he's serious or not. If he were serious, he probably should've voted here; after all, it wouldn't have been an RVS reason.
#52: So he does think it's still RVS here. Clearly wasn't being serious in 50. Okay.
#58: No explanation as to why his reads literally swapped. Cool. Scumpoints for Sven.
#60: Majiffy comes in, likes wagons. Probably not all that into RVS junk either.
#62: Didn't count the votes, but Majiffy's wagon vote was L-1...not comfortable with this, but L-1 wagons can dish a lot of good info.
#70: Oh goodness...anyone unvoting an L-1 wagon doesn't make them townie. Scum and town both do this: townies are concerned their read isn't good, scummies may do it to know that person will flip town.
but
#71: Sven still asks Rach questions after his unvote. And then asks her to rank people from town to scum when there's barely anything on the table.And, she could be dead at any time, so her reads can help the scum target people (maybe, but whatevs); Rach is town if Sven is scum, most likely.
#72: Shrugging L-1 off isn't a scumtell. Ape shit over a vote that you don't even know is serious yet? I find that worse. Maybe that's just me.
#73: Rach is so townie here, tbh. Calmly answers Sven's questions, seems sincere, willing to listen to reason even though she has suspicions.
#83: Icebox pulls Varsoonscum out of thin air, even though he's posted after that fact.But, apparently can't see Varsoon's other posts noting how not-serious the entire RVS business was. Hm...maybe keeping a closer eye on this. Might not mean much, but as scum, I can argue with my scumbuddy while there's a bigger picture happening, make a lot of noise, and quiet it back down.
#85: I usually am the one to say vote someone you think is the most scummy, but Varsoon seems pretty content not voting. Voting isn't only to ensure people know your position on your top scumread; also creates wagons that will reveal more information, maybe takes into account certain roles, etc. Also, Varsoon immediately silences Icebox here. Can't see them being a scumteam.
tl;dr
VOTE: Sven
Majiffy has some splainin' to do.
Icebox pulling Varsoon out of nowhere is weird.
Rach is probtown.
Selkies is probtown.
Varsoon is neutral, can't read him very well ATM.
Feel free to ask me questions about any of my reads so far, though.
Disturbed_One and Jennifer should post.
Does Bo Know? Pffft, 'course not. Nice to finally be in a game with you, as I haven't had a conversation with you since I graduated highschool.
Check earlier spoilers for how I feel about the Meta deal.
I meta girl once, it turned out horribly.
Dohoho.
On the real, I like this method of using posts, but it also threads attention like a needle. It’s good for town and scum to use this, so I’m going to be pretty critical of you for it.
In response to you looking at me: Pretty on the nose. I wasn’t being serious, but I was trying to see who’d try to exploit the information I provided and who’d write it off. To be honest, I don’t know what’s scummier. I’d say exploitation, since we’re all experienced players, but WIFOM’ll have me believe that we’re so experienced and savvy that we’d purposely call it out as nonsense reaction-bait and leave it there. So /shrug.
I don’t like how you’re simultaneously vindicating Rach while putting suspicion on Sven, Icebox, and Majiffy. However, it strikes me as a genuine town play, so I’ll chalk it up to me over-thinking things.
If you can’t read me very well, put on glasses. Seriously, though, I want to be as transparent as possible, so hit me with questions until you feel good about an alignment read. Null reads are useless.
POST 130 (DOESBOKNOW):
Spoiler:
↑ Does Bo Know wrote:Also, I'm liking this game's activity so far. Much better than the other Micro's I'm in, already 6 pages deep and it's only been like 6 hours.
I'm going to bed soon then school tomorrow, any other big questions you need to ask me between now and...lunch time tomorrow?
PEdit: Was going to question Rach about her 127, but Selkies beat me to it. So I want to know that too.
Activity tends to be a good thing. Content is the name of the game. Well, the name of the game is Mafiascum, but content is important too, you know?
I don't even know why I quoted this.
Oh, it was to make a joke.
KYAAAH~ You're asking me to lunch tomorrow?!
Jokes aside, you seem open to allowing other players to interrogate you, so I'm putting you further in town territory.
POST 141 (SELKIES):
Spoiler:
↑ Selkies wrote:↑ Does Bo Know wrote:#83: Icebox pulls Varsoonscum out of thin air, even though he's posted after that fact.But, apparently can't see Varsoon's other posts noting how not-serious the entire RVS business was. Hm...maybe keeping a closer eye on this. Might not mean much, but as scum, I can argue with my scumbuddy while there's a bigger picture happening, make a lot of noise, and quiet it back down.
This is good. Let’s ISO Icebox and see what we find.
If this is a serious reason, it really sucks. It’s not buddying; it’s just pointing out that somebody is enjoyable to play with. If this is a RVS vote, I’m not seeing what it’s achieving.
I also don’t like how Icebox effectively dodged Rach’s question here. It looks a bit like scum trying to end a conversation.
So first off, no mention whatsoever of the Rach wagon at L-1. At all. It’s a mine of information, much more than anything we’ve had so far, you have two people, and you failed to comment on it? Really?
Let’s examine who Icebox votes for instead. Varsoon, who just entered the thread. Icebox votes Varsoon for a legit reason, and at this point in time I’m thinking Vars is scum too for that dodge in 52 (I’ll explain a Vars case later—is he normally this snarky?).
But I still don’t like how both heads are ignoring the main discussion right now, and just looks like circling the bandwagon (where RM is concerned). And I think Icebox should know what these absolute statements are, and that this last question was fluff.
The first question is decent, but not the rest of this post. Okay so now we have a blatant refusal to read the thread of the game you’re playing in…after allegedly doing a meta case on Fery and I? This doesn’t seem real to me. And why exactly would you want someone to explain “absolute statements”—what are you hoping to get out of Varsoon? We all know what he’s going to answer, it won’t be alignment indicative. Bad question to mask as scumhunting. And I feel like even this jump on Varsoon seems like trying to find an easy target to avoid the whole Rach business. What would you have done if Varsoon replied to your pressure by voting Sven?
Sure.
Okay, why did you avoid talk about the L-1 wagon if you thought Rach was scummy? This is also a pretty weak case to make on Rach, compared to everything that has been said. Not necessarily scummy though.
↑ Icebox wrote:↑ Does Bo Know wrote:Also, I'm liking this game's activity so far. Much better than the other Micro's I'm in, already 6 pages deep and it's only been like 6 hours.
I'm going to bed soon then school tomorrow,any other big questionsyou need to ask me between now and...lunch time tomorrow?
PEdit: Was going to question Rach about her 127, but Selkies beat me to it. So I want to know that too.
Only question that matters: Are you scum?
So much fluff.
VOTE: Icebox
![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}
Sheep me.First of all, please learn to format your posts in a way that makes them easier to quote and respond to.
Since I’m town, and I know I’m town, I can deduce instantly that I’m not in a scumteam with Icebox. This doesn’t mean Icebox isn’t trying to buddy me, and it’s pretty easy to do, considering we were in a game with each other before and he totally duped me and got a scumwin. It might be my last game talking, but I’m leaning scummier towards Icebox just because of that, and it’s not a good mentality for me to have. Regardless, I do see a level of buddying, and I have to discern if it’s simply because Icebox is acknowledging me from the previous game or if he’s scum. I don’t like the scumbluffs so far (Post 28), either.
Okay, I did laugh at the AtE my way out part.
I also agree that it was a dodge, but LOLRVS.Can we make LOLRVS a thing?
Fuck RVS.
I agree with your Icebox post, but I’m also preeeetty wary of you. Here’s why.
In a game-climate where a wagon just failed, you make a compelling case against Icebox.
Good scum-hunting, or scum trying to start another wagon with some inertia this time?
We’ll see. We’ll see.
POST 143 (SELKIES):
Spoiler:
↑ Selkies wrote:Varsoon's posts are pretty bad too.
↑ Varsoon wrote:
Sorry, I wish I was capable of knowing when you were typing.
I actually didn't realize there was a second page so I was replying to the hydra discussion on the first one.
There's no such thing as RVS. Users invent it. I don't know. It's too complicated for me to parse out right now.
Okay so we get it that Varsoon doesn't like RVS. Just out of curiosity, how would you start a game? Because you've been blessed with information by people who have started RVS, and we actually weren't in RVS at the time of your posts. Why are you avoiding all of the information going on--do you honestly think htere's nothing in the first 2 pages worth commenting on? Not even Sven's outburst?
Well actually you sort of do.
Here's the offending post. This to me is weird like hell--first off, if RVS is so useless and you think everything so far has been boring RVS, how did you come up with this alignment-indicative information? Why are absolute statements inherently scummy? And if you're calling someone super-scum, I'd imagine you'd also put down a vote to pressure them or at least drive conversation in some way. Where's the vote?
And are you normally this snarky in games?
I think there's at least one scum between Varsoon and Icebox.
If by bad, you mean… awesome?
Here’s how I’d start a game, and I hope that you’re either ready for dinner or sitting on a toilet because it’ll be a mouthful and it’ll make you shit yourself:
RVS is terrible. Since there’s no real information on any players, the game can only truly begin when there is content posted. However, typical RVS conventions avoid posting meaningful content. This is not conducive to the game and distracts from real reads and worthwhile reactions.
How should RVS be handled?
There is only one thing that you can responsibly, reliably post during RVS and that’s a reaction test. Refer to my first noob game for this one. While different reaction tests should be used for different games, I’ve been trying to work through a method to use in all games that will be applicable. I’ll call it “The Varsoon is Awesome Method: Why Scum Can Suck It.” Here goes:
You begin a game by randomly selecting one of the players. Everyone agrees to put that player at L-(scum). Because he’s at L-(scum), if he’s quickhammered, someone hammering is pretty much confirmed to be scum. Once at L-(scum), the player has to make their case for being town and why they shouldn’t be lynched.
Why does this work, and when doesn’t it?
It works because it gets the game rolling immediately, it has focus (even if being a construct of the game), and it gives every player content to work with. I’ve noticed most RVS end when a wagon begins, and by forcing a wagon to be at L-(scum), you move the game along instantly to the end of RVS without any of the fluff or other rubbish. If the information garnered from this procedure is inadequate, you can repeat it for every player until it gives enough. The only case where it doesn’t work is when town decides to be 100% of the hammering vote, which is town playing against its wincon in 9 out of 10 cases.
At the time of my posts, we were still in a shitty game state. Sure, it wasn’t complete RVS, but it was terrible.
If you read my posts, you’d know that I was ‘avoiding’ what was going on (nice twist there, bro) because I was glossing the thread and going to sleep.
We have different thoughts on the power of the vote and how the vote should be used. Glad you like absolutes, though.
As far as your response to my post-50, this is exactly why I made it. I actually talk about this in an earlier spoiler, but you fell for the trap.
I’m normally normal in games. Also, I agree, there is at least one scum between me, Icebox, and you. PoE lets me know it’s not me, and your posts let me know it’s likely you.
POST 146 (ICEBOX):
Spoiler:
↑ Icebox wrote:Ok. This is what is happening.
Rem thinks Rach is scummy based on her meta and stuff. Me, not so much convinced.
I have played a game with Varsoon before, and the way I'm doing (at least, was doing, thanks to Rem) is the best way to read Varsoon for me, since his thought process is pretty easy to follow. While talking with Varsoon this way, I can see his motive behind his posts easily. Hence my push there. Also about not knowing "absolute statement" is: I'm serious on this one. English is not my native language and sometimes I have hard time understanding some of the words/concept/etc.
Also those "fluffs," well that's Rem for you.
So while Rem is not here, let me continue to do my stuff.
VOTE: Varsoon
Also about those push on Rach, I'll let Rem explain those.
-G
You're a sweetheart.
When I say 'absolute statement', I mean one that says that something can only be one certain way. An 'if X, then Y' statement, for instance. Here's some examples:
If you vote for me, you're scum.
If you're not with me, you're against me.
Anyone who is on this wagon is scum.
That sort of post is scummy.
Avoid this sort of posting. Why? It locks in a certain kind of thinking and guides the game too much. It's more town (in my book) to write things like:
I think that scumbluffing is a scummy tactic.
It's likely that at least one person on this wagon is scum.
I've got to figure at least one person voting for me is scum.
So on and so on. It's not only a matter of presentation, but of meaning.
But, to be fair, my comment about absolute statements and my scum-read without a vote was really reaction testing more than it was serious posting. It, for the most part, worked out.
I always try to be as open as possible so other people can work through my thought process. I'm sure it makes me vulnerable, but this game works a lot better when people know what you're doing. It makes getting a read easier, I find.
Please don't lynch or NK me, I really like this game.
POST 148 AND 169 (DISTURBED ONE):
Spoiler:
↑ Disturbed_One wrote:Okay so as for my RachMarie vote, it was actually intended to be an RVS vote. I somehow didn't see any other posts past from day 1, so the vote I made was based on the information I had read from there.
I have read through the 7 pages now with some slight skimming, at the moment I'm most convinced of Sven being scum because of the case Bo made in post 104.
UNVOTE: RachMarie[/uvote]
VOTE: Svenskt
Will continue to read and form more opinions.
I don't like your instant vote on the Rach wagon and I don't like the way you've positioned yourself in response to that vote. It just reads really scummy to me.
POST 187 (JENNIFER):
Spoiler:
↑ Jennifer wrote:Wow, you guys move fast! 7 pages, L-1... anyway, hi!
VOTE: Varsoon
Reading through, I don't see why RachMarie got to L-1 instead of Varsoon.
- Varsoon: I really don't like that he said Sven was "kinda super scum" but didn't vote him. If he has a reason to think someone is scum, it's no longer a random vote so the "NO RVS philosophy" isn't even applicable.
That said, I don't like that RachMarie hasn't voted anyone since her RVS vote on Majiffy, despite actively engaging in the game.
@RachMarie
- Why haven't you voted anybody since your RVS vote?
- Why did you provide an answer on why Majiffy voted for you instead of waiting for Majiffy to come back in the thread and explain?
@Varsoon
- Why are you not voting your scum read? And, at this point with this much content, I think it's safe to say there is enough meat here that we aren't in RVS anymore (or user-defined RVS since you don't believe in it). Do you agree?
- Can you provide a better answer to Icebox's question on what "absolute statements" you thought Sven was making. Your answer in post 85 didn't make sense to me and didn't read as responsive.
@Sven
- Please explain why Selkies is a town lean for you.
@Majiffy
Why the vote on RachMarie?
@DisturbedOne
- Can you explain what posts you read before your initial vote on RachMarie. You said that you meant it to be RVS and hadn't seen other posts since Day 1, but since we're in Day 1 I'm not sure what that means...
- Why are you voting Sven?
@Icebox
- Why did you switch your vote back to RachMarie?
- Were you satisfied with Varsoon's answers to your question?
- Why does Rach seem scummier to you than Varsoon?
@Bo
- Why do you think Icebox is weird for 'pulling Varsoon out of nowhere' but don't commend on the weirdness of voting Rach after not even getting much of a response from Varsoon?
- Do you think town always fully explain their reads/changes in reads?
@Selkies
- What made you choose to vote Icebox over Varsoon?
I won't have a chance to post again until later today or tomorrow because I'm in meetings and then have a flight home. Catch up with you all later!
p-edit Argh... tried to submit and saw that like 20 new posts popped up. Won't have time to read/respond to those now.
I think I answered your questions in the other spoilers.
Anyway, I wasn't put at L-1 because I'm not scum.
I made myself way too easy of a target though, and I think that's what you're acknowledging here.
Either way, I like the rest of your post. It's a good way to engage.
Okay, wheh, only took me a little over an hour. Yay.
That said, here's my reads. Nulls are anti-town, so no Nulls:
Disturbed_One: Scum.
Does Bo Know: Town.
Icebox: Town.
Jennifer: Town.
Majiffy: Scum.
RachMarie: Town.
Selkies: Scum.
Svenskt Stål: Scum.
Splits it down the middle, doesn't it. 4 scum and 4 town? Really, though, my scumdar goes:
Selkies < Svenkst = Disturbed < Majiffy.
Towndar:
Rach = Jennifer > Icebox > Does Bo Know.
Oh, but to be fair, Selkies is the biggest scum-read for me right now. Absolute statements aside, he's put me in a position where I have to pick between him and Icebox, and Icebox is reading town to me.
VOTE: Selkies
