Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[Eye Urn]

Actually, I think my best guess for scum is Z7-852. Let me count the ways.

• superfluous "scumometer" in every post
• lots of summaries with very few conclusions
• requests thoughts on every single player in the game

Looks like classic "Hey I'm active guys" scum. I don't like teh ArcAngel wagon, on first readthrough I couldn't really find a consolidated case and nothing jumped out at me personally.

VOTE: Z7-852

I won't be providing my thoughts of everyone. If anyone wants to know anything specific I'll try to oblige, but we can only lynch one person at a time and I want that person to be Z7. I'm presently doing AA in iso to see what all the fuss is about, but like I said nothing jumped out at me personally whilst reading.

@VE:

Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

Let's break this down:

"superfluous scumometer" - So what? You say it's a false indication of effort being put in, while I say the exact opposite. He is continually updating it with new information, thinking about how everyone fits into the game, and re-analyzing constantly. It's not just random names. Your further comments about reads pretty much cements your position as "I ain't telling scum nothing" which is somewhat reasonable as it's completely true that we only need to lynch one person at a time, but keep in mind that the point of making your reads known is to leave a legacy in case you're NK'd.

"summaries with conclusions" - So say you. I see a lot of linking to previous posts and a little summarizing, but I see a lot of his own thoughts and some conclusions.

"requests thoughts from everyone" - Wrong. He's requested reads of Revenus and of you. Did you think that "Once VisceraEyes have read the thread I want reads on every person/slot in as much detail as humanly possible." was directed at everyone? It doesn't say "from him" in the latter half of the sentence, and it would improve readability, but I think the intent is fairly clear. It would make absolutely no sense to be directed at everyone when he previously requested reads from Revenus (and then thanked him for the contribution) and has been following along for days just fine. I can't say this is an intentional misrepresentation, but it's a pretty bad one.

Now I suppose that with the way you post you're not worried about being night killed. So that's fine that you don't want to share your reads. But it pretty much makes me think that you've barely skimmed the thread, and have only read the last few pages. You probably didn't even read the major chunk of what made people turn to AA9 because it was so long ago. The fact that you built such a thin case against a player who was a replacement without even considering any of the input from the previous player absolutely cements that. I don't understand at all why anyone is following your lead here, and it's pretty telling that the four people I think least of are voting for "Fropome" here. I pretty much don't see me, Revenus, or Deras voting for "Fropome", so you're going to have to get Mac.

Please just read the entire thread for real.

[fferyllt]

Do you see any merit to my contention with Mac? He disregarded a large portion of my response to him correcting a point I actually disclaimed in the post in question, but the whole post was fraught with misrepresentations of my play. At first I suspected that he might be townie with latent bias against my slot (much like I'm assuming is happening with Rev pending further content from him) but after completely taking everything I was doing out of context and attacking me for it....that doesn't sit well with me.

Yeah I do see some merit, and it raises some flags I'd lowered a while back tbh. Mac did a follow-on of GM's case which involved what I thought was misrepresentation of some of my posts. He eventually backed off.

[VisceraEyes]

I find plenty of success playing the way I play. You don't like the case against Z - had a townread on Frop. Neat. I don't expect you on the wagon.

I've been in here talking with everyone about lots of stuff. If you think I should be voting for someone else, rather than scold me about my weak case, how about you turn me on to a good one? I ISO'd AA9 and I'm not interested in lynching. If you think I'm wrong, maybe you should explain how and why I'm wrong about THAT rather than my own scumread?

[fferyllt]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

btw this kind of hedge pings very loudly to me. Where I grew up playing mafia we eventually lynched that kind of wishy-washiness out of each other.

[fferyllt]

I can't tell you what a relief it is with 2 days to go to be talking with someone who is both making sense and posts more than once every day or 2. This has been one of the most frustrating game days I can recall. Right now, I don't even care what your alignment is. Just having ideas to bounce off is an improvement.

[VisceraEyes]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

btw this kind of hedge pings very loudly to me. Where I grew up playing mafia we eventually lynched that kind of wishy-washiness out of each other.

I'm like scouring the thread and I can't find a consolidated case on AA - EU referred to one specific "thing" that AA did or said that "got people on her in the first place", do you know what it is or where I can find it? You mentioned earlier that AA had "given up" or something, was that just referring to activity or did she martyr?

[Eye Urn]

I find plenty of success playing the way I play. You don't like the case against Z - had a townread on Frop. Neat. I don't expect you on the wagon.

I've been in here talking with everyone about lots of stuff. If you think I should be voting for someone else, rather than scold me about my weak case, how about you turn me on to a good one? I ISO'd AA9 and I'm not interested in lynching. If you think I'm wrong, maybe you should explain how and why I'm wrong about THAT rather than my own scumread?

It really doesn't matter what my read was on Frop earlier, your case is a load of bullshit. You aren't even *attempting* to argue that it's true, you're just dismissing my counter-arguments out of hand. You haven't said a single damn thing to back up your case other than repeating that it's true and asking what other people think.

I'll consolidate my thoughts on AA9 presently.

[fferyllt]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

btw this kind of hedge pings very loudly to me. Where I grew up playing mafia we eventually lynched that kind of wishy-washiness out of each other.

I'm like scouring the thread and I can't find a consolidated case on AA - EU referred to one specific "thing" that AA did or said that "got people on her in the first place", do you know what it is or where I can find it? You mentioned earlier that AA had "given up" or something, was that just referring to activity or did she martyr?

Mostly inactivity. I think the "thing" was AA's insistence that the roles aren't randomly assigned and that there would be (at least? I forget) 1 scum among the SE's/IC. Despite evidence - links to games where both scum were SE/IC and where both scum were among the newbie slots - she wouldn't let go of that idea until the Mod posted that roles are assigned via random.org. She was ready to start scumhunting based on that assumption - who is the scummiest of these 3 and who is the scummiest of those 6. Raised some alarms because of how easily we could mislynch our way to LYLO by clearing everyone else in one of those groups if we did hit scum.

Re "giving up" it was a combination of infrequent posts and a defense that consisted almost entirely of attacking anyone who questioned her or commented negatively about her posts. It seemed like a useless way of getting down from L-2.

[VisceraEyes]

Right, but assuming she's town could she not actually believe what she was saying until the Mod confirmation? I find that a pretty weak reason for the whole town to be up in arms about lynching someone, but I guess my reasons are weak too so meh.

I'm looking forward to EU's post on the matter.

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE COUNT 1.12

[L-1] Z7-852: (goodmorning, VisceraEyes, fferyllt, ArcAngel9)

[L-5] fferyllt:

[L-5] Deras:

[L-3] ArcAngel9: (Eye Urn, Deras)

[L-5] Mac:

[L-5] Eye Urn:

[L-4] VisceraEyes: (Revenus)

[L-5] Revenus:

[L-4] goodmorning: (Z7-852)

Not Voting:

1 (Mac)

• With nine alive, it takes five to lynch.
  
• Day One's deadline: April 18, 2013 CST or in (expired on 2013-04-18 20:45:00).
  
• V/LA: Mac (a couple of days)

[VisceraEyes]

UNVOTE:

Gonna see whats up with the AA wagon that once was but is no longer.

[fferyllt]

That was the start of it. At the time I thought it could be a way of posting a lot of shit without actually scumhunting. Once the question of random role assignment was settled, then we went into the what I fondly think of as the "no u" phase of her participation. In her defense, she seems to have developed her reads in the first day or so and with some exceptions has stuck with them.

[VisceraEyes]

Well she certainly didn't stick with her read of my slot when it became clear that I was less than thrilled with lynching her, so there's that. :/

[fferyllt]

True!

[Eye Urn]

Yeah, it all comes back to her seeming to attempt to push the idea down our throat that there must be scum in SE/IC. Her insistence that this must be true was genuinely very strange and I initially thought she was just a terrible player. I then came to think that maybe she was trying to mislead us: she's still pretty awful and so the way that she's trying to mislead us is patently false, and it makes sense that she might think newbies would be easily misled by more experienced players. However, I now feel I am being too generous to AA9 by thinking she'd make those kind of thoughts. I was also reminded by some idiot cow-orkers of mine that most people just have a complete failure to grasp the basic ideas of probability. Her attempted defense has been so ridiculously bad that I can't believe that anyone would even be trying it. So in the end, I'm pretty sure she's just really, really, really bad and so, like with Carey, it's really hard to tell whether it's a patently bad Town player or patently bad Scum player. I have no problems lynching her, but there are better targets.

VOTE: VisceraEyes See 806 and 800.

[VisceraEyes]

Spoiler: Fluff

OMGUS: Scumtell or Towntell?
Early on in my mafia career I learned what the phrase OMGUS meant, and the first question that popped into my mind was "I wonder who's more likely to OMGUS, scum or town?" When I ask those who "know better" the response is almost unilaterally the same: "Town are far more likely to OMGUS than scum are, because scum are more likely to sympathize with their attacker, trying to sway them to change their mind, rather than call them scum and essentially cement the other players vote onto them."

This makes sense on paper, but I've found in my travels that it's not quite as black and white as that - often there are circumstances outside the game at play (the metagame, players who know/play with each other more than some others) and usually you have to look at the thing in context to really understand what's going on.

PEdit:
So bad case = scum eh? Neat. And you didn't even care about my response to your AA post, in spite of caring enough to post it. Good to know.

[goodmorning]

...providing ONE scumread means you are tunneling the fuck out of Z and not really focusing on anyone else?

NO SIR
THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT
(Self-reference: Newbie 1308. First few pages I kept my reads to myself, giving one scumread only. BUT REALLY I WAS WATCHING EVERYONE. Then BAM I came out with a readslist and said "let's lynch these three" and by George, if we had we would have won.)

If it comes down to it and deadline is upon us, I'll hammer AA for the flip, but for the record I'm against it and think she'll flip town.

Don't like the above quote either; one of the "threatening Angel" posts I feel you are making here. And it feels like you were preparing for her townflip once you hammered her as though you were scum.

It was a response to my question of whether he was willing to compromise. It was, and is, not a threat.

@GM - Z is not Fro.

Yes he is. I suggest you check the front post if you disbelieve me.

@ff: I DON'T DO OMGUS

Her case on Fropome was not even that organized IMO.

That's because I made bits of a case in lots of places.

He is continually updating it with new information, thinking about how everyone fits into the game, and re-analyzing constantly.

In what universe? It's been the exact same one every single time, except that he seemingly shuffles his bottom three almost at random.

I don't understand at all why anyone is following your lead here, and it's pretty telling that the four people I think least of are voting for "Fropome" here.

For some reason, this is the phrase that has pissed me off the most in my entire Mafia career.

I can't tell you what a relief it is with 2 days to go to be talking with someone who is both making sense and posts more than once every day or 2. This has been one of the most frustrating game days I can recall. Right now, I don't even care what your alignment is. Just having ideas to bounce off is an improvement.

Am I chopped liver then? ;_;

I'll go try and consolidate my major points on Fro and then remind you all that Z has done

literally nothing that looks Town even a little

.

[fferyllt]

Am I chopped liver then? ;_;

The last week or so? What do you think?

I come into this thread 2 or 3 times a day looking for something to sink my teeth into. And all I find are laments about the time slipping away. That and AA.

I think I did her a disservice by calling her posts "giving up".

I include myself in the chopped liver.

[ArcAngel9]

Vis, this game needs moving..
I am okay to shift this wagon to GM if lynching Z is the problem. i haven't changed my reads on both of them

yet

.

Yet?

btw this kind of hedge pings very loudly to me. Where I grew up playing mafia we eventually lynched that kind of wishy-washiness out of each other.

you're in a different site and people on this site play different.

[goodmorning]

@ff: Let's be fair, when the game stagnates for want of content from a couple slots we're allll chopped liver.

[VisceraEyes]

Psh, I'm not chopped liver - look at the splash I've made already!

[VisceraEyes]

EBWOP....and all while awaiting content from players like Rev/Deras. /flex

[fferyllt]

yabbut we've been waiting around forever for you to show up. Watching paint dry would be high drama after the last week.

[Deras]

So, overnight we decided to lynch Z instead of AA9, seems legit. Good to see so much discussion going on though.

Reading...

[VisceraEyes]

OH MY GOD I almost got lynched for saying something like that in my last game. LOL It was something like

"Man I'd like to hang around and discuss the merits/pitfalls of lying to town with you guys, but gosh I've got a date watching grass grow. You know if it was anything less exciting I'd be in here with you guys, but DAT GRASS"

I've got another vote on me guys, should I be worried? EU seems to mean well in spite of his aggressive tone, but he's voting me for a difference of opinion (unless I'm mistaken.)