[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[LlamaFluff]

Hmm... The gov is useful during the day, but not much else... You make a good point about the day phase. How about instead of night 2 vig i make it day 2 vig? Or if you think i should drop roles, which ones?

Thats still borderline role chaos.

Games that are "role madness" tend to not work well without some form of uniformity or at least predictability. When you instead make a ton of roles, especially killing ones, you are going to just inject the game with a TON of swing.

Probably the better question here is - "Why are you trying to change a setup that is balanced and popular"

[Venrob]

I have time on my hands and felt like trying. How about removing the JoAT's ability to kill, the governor, and gunsmith- leave neighborizer OR JoAT with 4 abilities. Back to normal number of slots, and barely modified (n3 vig -> n2 vig, 1-shot vig -> perfectionist, 1-shot commune -> conditional-shot, 1-shot redirector -> 2-shot redirector, Fruit vendor -> JoAT.)

[LlamaFluff]

Somthing ive been playing with

At core its 10x Town, 3x Mafia - Variable from there.

Town is guarenteed to have two of the following six roles (selected randomly)
-Goon Cop
-Roleblocker
-Innocent Child
-Tracker
-Bodyguard
-Vig

Mafia starts with all goons. They can choose to add on up to three of the following
-Bulletproof
-Role Cop
-Daytalk (passive - no encryptor)
-JOAT (1 Shot Strongman/1 Shot Ninja)

For each role the mafia adds (recipiant is random) town gains another random role.

That means setup can be simple as: Goon Cop, IC, 8x VT vs 3x Goon
Or PR heavy as: Goon Cop, IC, Vig, BG, RB vs JOAT, Role Cop, Goon (with daytalk)

Its basically an inital game for scum to see how heavy they want to make the game knowing what it can do for scum, while at the same time creates some of the gaming the setup moves later that we see in setups such as C9++ where to an extent you can confirm/catch players given that stuff becomes eventual impossibilities.

[JacobSavage]

I like it.

How would this work? Would you send out the scum PM's and give them 48 hours to decide what to do?

[LlamaFluff]

I like it.

How would this work? Would you send out the scum PM's and give them 48 hours to decide what to do?

Scum get 48 hours to pick if they want anything extra, after that all town PRs go out. Even the inital two are not told of their roles until after the scum choice period to prevent some form of game breaking.

[Cheery Dog]

Does the goon flip when daytalk is chosen show that power exists?

[Sanjay]

I really like that setup.

Do the mafia get to decide which of them gets what power role?

[LlamaFluff]

Does the goon flip when daytalk is chosen show that power exists?

No. It prevents town from ever knowing exactly what roles were chosen by scum. That way town can never go "we have exacty X roles".

Do the mafia get to decide which of them gets what power role?

No. Its like how town doesnt get to choose who gets what role either, they just choose what roles (if any) they want.

[Sanjay]

The dynamic where tracker gets better and goon cop gets worse the more roles the mafia picks is really interesting.

Have a good name for the setup yet?

[Venrob]

I made a modified version of PYP X/Y with some odd roles in it to make the game more interesting, though since each role can go to either alignment it is about the same balance wise except for one or 2 things... Here is a link to the setup (i made it as a wiki page) Venrob's PYP X/Y

Any balancing that is needed can be talked about in the discussion page for the wiki article that i just linked- i'm going to be modding the first run (hopefully) as soon as i reach the top of the modding queue.

One main thing i am worried about is the conditional-shot vigilante... It more favors town than maf, though most likely as town it will be one-shot unless saved until lategame thus making it boring early game (prob not gonna happen) while as maf it is always 1-shot unless maf shoots their own partner... Then there is the Jack of All Trades.... Might need some ability changes..... Plz check out the link, would appriciate. Will accept pre /ins to the first run of the setup in the discussion page.

Officially abandoned the idea.

Somthing ive been playing with

At core its 10x Town, 3x Mafia - Variable from there.

Town is guarenteed to have two of the following six roles (selected randomly)
-Goon Cop
-Roleblocker
-Innocent Child
-Tracker
-Bodyguard
-Vig

Mafia starts with all goons. They can choose to add on up to three of the following
-Bulletproof
-Role Cop
-Daytalk (passive - no encryptor)
-JOAT (1 Shot Strongman/1 Shot Ninja)

For each role the mafia adds (recipiant is random) town gains another random role.

That means setup can be simple as: Goon Cop, IC, 8x VT vs 3x Goon
Or PR heavy as: Goon Cop, IC, Vig, BG, RB vs JOAT, Role Cop, Goon (with daytalk)

Its basically an inital game for scum to see how heavy they want to make the game knowing what it can do for scum, while at the same time creates some of the gaming the setup moves later that we see in setups such as C9++ where to an extent you can confirm/catch players given that stuff becomes eventual impossibilities.

I like it.

[Leafsnail]

I like the idea, but as the setup stands I don't think the scum would ever want to take anything (except maybe the daytalk). You're giving the town another role (all of which except Bodyguard directly help in killing scum), and in return you receive something that can slightly negate some specific roles that may or may not be in the game (bulletproof, JOAT) or allow you a little bit more knowledge of their roles (role cop).

[Docteur Gudsight]

The fact all mafia roles are also godfather (the cop is good-only) makes taking roles tempting though.

[LlamaFluff]

I like the idea, but as the setup stands I don't think the scum would ever want to take anything (except maybe the daytalk). You're giving the town another role (all of which except Bodyguard directly help in killing scum), and in return you receive something that can slightly negate some specific roles that may or may not be in the game (bulletproof, JOAT) or allow you a little bit more knowledge of their roles (role cop).

Yeah thats the nervous part, taking nothing is probably the correct move for scum, even though history in things like Pick Your Poision shows scum usually choose suboptimally.

It creates a situation where no more than one scum can fakeclaim though really, so it basically will confirm two town. From there we have a breakdown of setups where some (lets say RB/Tracker) are going to be balanced to possibly townsided. Other setups (vig/IC) are going to be very scumsided.

Its basically a gamble because at every level of roles there are going to be draws that are more town or more scum sided.

[UberNinja]

Hmmm true... Except in 3-way or more ties. Shouls 2 people select 1 as secondary and another select 2, the person that selects 2 is ahead as the 1's are tied. That's the main purpose of it- would've helped in Open 472.

If you're planning to select any number other than 1 as your secondary number, so you can prosper in three-way ties, then you're doing it wrong. Old PYP games (before it became a catalogued open game) featured drafts with a secondary number, and it was dropped for that reason - it has no real purpose.

If that's the case then what the hell is the point of even picking a first number. If ties don't affect the outcome of the secondary numbers, then they don't affect the first either, and then the entire draft system is pretty much pointless.

In other words:

I remember reading one secondary draft that if people selected the exact same stuff they got bumped RIGHT to the bottom.

This. ^

[Hoopla]

If that's the case then what the hell is the point of even picking a first number. If ties don't affect the outcome of the secondary numbers, then they don't affect the first either, and then the entire draft system is pretty much pointless.

I don't think you understand.

[Leafsnail]

Having double matchers being knocked right to the bottom seems to make the second set of numbers meaningful.

[LlamaFluff]

Other option to balance my variable would be making it:

Goon x2
Traitor x1

Town x10

To start. Change scum power abilities to:

Bulletproof
Role Cop
Daytalk (passive)
Recruit traitor as goon pre-game
JOAT (1x strongman, 1x ninja)

With note of no abilites can go to traitor. Cap at three abilites taken. If recruited flips as "mafia goon" not telling of recruitment.

[Cheery Dog]

Can you recruit the traitor at a later time, or is it only an option pregame?

I still like the idea behind the setup.

[UberNinja]

If that's the case then what the hell is the point of even picking a first number. If ties don't affect the outcome of the secondary numbers, then they don't affect the first either, and then the entire draft system is pretty much pointless.

I don't think you understand.

Clearly not. Explain?

[LlamaFluff]

Can you recruit the traitor at a later time, or is it only an option pregame?

I still like the idea behind the setup.

Its only a pregame option.

Im more debating how to deal with traitor NK immunity really. If its a "recruit or not" option to start I actually prefer to not have the traitor be recruitable (although I would say being able to NK if all other mafia are dead is acceptable). Question is does the traitor get some form of NK immunity or not at that point (gut says no).

[Elscouta]

Other option to balance my variable would be making it:

Goon x2
Traitor x1

Town x10

To start. Change scum power abilities to:

Bulletproof
Role Cop
Daytalk (passive)
Recruit traitor as goon pre-game
JOAT (1x strongman, 1x ninja)

With note of no abilites can go to traitor. Cap at three abilites taken. If recruited flips as "mafia goon" not telling of recruitment.

Bulletproof is super weak, given the odds of a vig are low, and that on a failed vig shoot, you'll end up dead anyway (vig would eventually claim the failed shoot, if no RB claims to be responsible, you are dead meat). I'd remove it, and give 1x doctor to JOAT. Giving scum the possibility of a roleblocker is also an option.

[LlamaFluff]

Other option to balance my variable would be making it:

Goon x2
Traitor x1

Town x10

To start. Change scum power abilities to:

Bulletproof
Role Cop
Daytalk (passive)
Recruit traitor as goon pre-game
JOAT (1x strongman, 1x ninja)

With note of no abilites can go to traitor. Cap at three abilites taken. If recruited flips as "mafia goon" not telling of recruitment.

Bulletproof is super weak, given the odds of a vig are low, and that on a failed vig shoot, you'll end up dead anyway (vig would eventually claim the failed shoot, if no RB claims to be responsible, you are dead meat). I'd remove it, and give 1x doctor to JOAT. Giving scum the possibility of a roleblocker is also an option.

Bulletproof (as it flips BP) also counteracts goon cop, may be better just to replace Bulletproof with Godfather though to clarify that and not have to worry about flip chains.

Maybe make it

Town x10
Mafia x3

Mafia composed of

2x Goon
1x Traitor (1 Shot BP)

Mafia can elect to add up to three of the additional powers

Change a goon to Role Cop
Change a goon to Godfather (Bulletproof)
Change a goon to JOAT (1x Strongman, 1x Ninja)
Recruit the traitor as Mafia Goon
Enable daytalk for the mafia team

Town has two of the following powers:

Goon Cop
Roleblocker
Innocent Child (Game start reveal)
Tracker
Bodyguard
Vigilantee

For each role the mafia selects, town also receives an additional role.

All modifications to roles are given out when the game begins, including the guarenteed two non-VT town roles

No roles may stack (no Vigilantee Innocent Child or Role Cop Godfather)

If both goons (or modified versions thereof) die and the traitor was not recruited - the traitor will gain a factional nightkill.

Mafia has 48 hours from distribution of alignment to choose roles.

[Elscouta]

Well why would you want to turn a goon into a "Godfather" (aka gooncop immune with the veryweak bulletproof) instead of turning a goon into an interesting role (rolecop or JOAT) that would also get the gooncop immune part?

Picking Godfather seems like a totally awful option for the scumteam.

[LlamaFluff]

If there is one thing to be learned from variable setups scum pick (like Pick Your Poison) - scum routinely choose suboptimal choices.

[Cheery Dog]

Well why would you want to turn a goon into a "Godfather" (aka gooncop immune with the veryweak bulletproof) instead of turning a goon into an interesting role (rolecop or JOAT) that would also get the gooncop immune part?

Picking Godfather seems like a totally awful option for the scumteam.

Because role cop is just as useless in the long run usually?
Plus it gives the tracker something else that is trackable.