Newbie 1361: The Ninja Council (Game Over)

[pirate mollie]

@mrbungle and NicCage:

The reason I looked at mrbungle's gene read is the following. I disagreed with the reasoning for considering gene town at that point in the game because I thought mrbungle had mischaracterized gene. Thus, it looked like he had fabricated a town read (which would fall in line with scum knowing who town are) and I was interested in seeing what he would say if I brought it up. I didn't make a big deal about it (our discussion lasted all of three posts from me) because it looked like a dead end. The only reason I have discussed it since is because others have brought it up.

FLLhawk, what is your read on nic cage?

I have a scum lean on him. Since reappearing he has asked some solid questions, but there seems to be a lot of fence sitting in his statements about people and their play. Look at post 167.
- Levi's list could be scummy, but because mrbungle requested reads, it's not particularly scummy.
- Doesn't like pirate mollie's reaction to mrbungle's case, but it could be playstyle.
- FLLhawk's argument with mrbungle looks like FLLhawk pushing mrbungle based on an unimportant point. But maybe it's nothing, because mrbungle encouraged it.
- His reaction to the FLLhawk/mrbungle paranoia discussion is: I can see where mrbungle is coming from, but he isn't exactly right.
- In response to David Jones and his suspicion of mrbungle: I think I see where you are coming from, though I disagree with you (post 180).

In each of the first three he presents something that, but then gives a reason it could be town right after. As far as I can tell, these make up the meat if Nic's reads. In the last two points he disagrees with a statement, but is careful not to draw anyone's ire. It reads too careful to me.

My other scum read at the moment is borno for refusing to commit to his scum reads by voting, even after I followed up on this.

I like this post.

also it reminds of what I was going to say to nicky boy; nic, scum do not like to give out a long list of town reads cos they will have to backpedal on those reads later in order to ensure a mislynch. what scum usually do is exactly what hawkboy#2 outlined in the above post. on this site it is called fencesitting, I call it hedging. what levi did was very protown in that he is leaving a clear trail for us to refer back to.

[JasonWazza]

Vote Count 1.7

[3] NicCage: Nachomamma8, leviathan93, FLLhawk,
[2] Mr Bungle: Pirate Mollie, David Jones,
[1] Borno: mrbungle,

Not Voting: gene1991, borno, NicCage,

Deadline: (expired on 2013-05-06 16:20:13)

[pirate mollie]

Nacho: I don't know what to make of this guy. He's supposed to be some type of in-game coach from what I can tell of how newbie games are done around here, but he's done very little to set an example. He only asks questions and he's not provided us with any kind of read dump or spoken about anyone that he wants to lynch. I need to see more of him before making up my mind because all of the aforementioned issues could easily be explained by him just not having time to commit to the thread.


pre-edit: goddamn got ninjad by like everyone

nacho is huddling in a corner somewhere, rocking back and forth and hoping I won't notice him. he hates dealing with me when he is scum and I am town. and truth be known, vice versa.

[leviathan93]

- Levi's list could be scummy, but because mrbungle requested reads, it's not particularly scummy.
- Doesn't like pirate mollie's reaction to mrbungle's case, but it could be playstyle.
- FLLhawk's argument with mrbungle looks like FLLhawk pushing mrbungle based on an unimportant point. But maybe it's nothing, because mrbungle encouraged it.
- His reaction to the FLLhawk/mrbungle paranoia discussion is: I can see where mrbungle is coming from, but he isn't exactly right.
- In response to David Jones and his suspicion of mrbungle: I think I see where you are coming from, though I disagree with you (post 180).

In each of the first three he presents something that, but then gives a reason it could be town right after. As far as I can tell, these make up the meat if Nic's reads. In the last two points he disagrees with a statement, but is careful not to draw anyone's ire. It reads too careful to me.

My other scum read at the moment is borno for refusing to commit to his scum reads by voting, even after I followed up on this.

You misunderstand, I think that levi's list

is

scummy, I think overly explanatory reaction to my self-vote could go either way due to mrbungle asking him questions about it.

The purpose of the last 2 points is to explain where I stand. I believe that mrbungle's logic for townreading gene comes from a town standpoint, however he misinterpreted the meaning of gene's post, as you said. Since I don't think David is right in his read of mrbungle I disagree with him, but from his answers to my questions I think he is town.

If you think I'm being too careful I apologize, but I'm not going to push anything that I'm not sure of.

What do you think of pirate mollie tunneling mrbungle?
What is the purpose of mrbungle fabricating a read on gene?

First of all, I want to say that ARE PEOPLE EVEN READING THE THREAD? I said I would be popping in and out of this unexpectedly to give my comments and post stuff when I have the time.

For those of you who are using that to post me as scummy that is NOT the way to go about it. there is more going on here than worrying about the fact that you don't like someones list. =P honestly that won't be how you find scum overall.

Secondly mr. NicCage. just because my list doesn't rip someone to threads doesn't mean its scummy list. I'm not TRYING to get someone lynched at this point. Its too early in the game for that. Still looking for a correct candidate. My vote is on you for pressure sake because you are the scummiest to me at the moment. But even with that I do NOT support your lynch at this time. It is too early in the game still to actually talk about lynching someone.

[pirate mollie]

- Levi's list could be scummy, but because mrbungle requested reads, it's not particularly scummy.
- Doesn't like pirate mollie's reaction to mrbungle's case, but it could be playstyle.
- FLLhawk's argument with mrbungle looks like FLLhawk pushing mrbungle based on an unimportant point. But maybe it's nothing, because mrbungle encouraged it.
- His reaction to the FLLhawk/mrbungle paranoia discussion is: I can see where mrbungle is coming from, but he isn't exactly right.
- In response to David Jones and his suspicion of mrbungle: I think I see where you are coming from, though I disagree with you (post 180).

In each of the first three he presents something that, but then gives a reason it could be town right after. As far as I can tell, these make up the meat if Nic's reads. In the last two points he disagrees with a statement, but is careful not to draw anyone's ire. It reads too careful to me.

My other scum read at the moment is borno for refusing to commit to his scum reads by voting, even after I followed up on this.

You misunderstand, I think that levi's list

is

scummy, I think overly explanatory reaction to my self-vote could go either way due to mrbungle asking him questions about it.

The purpose of the last 2 points is to explain where I stand. I believe that mrbungle's logic for townreading gene comes from a town standpoint, however he misinterpreted the meaning of gene's post, as you said. Since I don't think David is right in his read of mrbungle I disagree with him, but from his answers to my questions I think he is town.

If you think I'm being too careful I apologize, but I'm not going to push anything that I'm not sure of.

What do you think of pirate mollie tunneling mrbungle?
What is the purpose of mrbungle fabricating a read on gene?

interesting

[mrbungle]

Nacho: I don't know what to make of this guy. He's supposed to be some type of in-game coach from what I can tell of how newbie games are done around here, but he's done very little to set an example. He only asks questions and he's not provided us with any kind of read dump or spoken about anyone that he wants to lynch. I need to see more of him before making up my mind because all of the aforementioned issues could easily be explained by him just not having time to commit to the thread.


pre-edit: goddamn got ninjad by like everyone

nacho is huddling in a corner somewhere, rocking back and forth and hoping I won't notice him. he hates dealing with me when he is scum and I am town. and truth be known, vice versa.

ah. so we agree on like .0001% of the issues

better than 0% at least

[pirate mollie]

"only mafia have to push their agenda and try to manipulate the town"

this is one of the dumbest things in this thread so far and that's saying a lot

you do realize that town have an agenda? and that town's agenda is to lynch scum? and that in order to lynch scum, you have to get scumreads? and that in order to get scumreads, you cant just sit on your ass all game long?

you just posted a summary of my filter without saying why any of those things are scummy. i'll walk you through an example

the case on pirate:

I made a case against a scumread. sure it was a weak case, but i don't fucking care because you gotta start somewhere on D1. Then I tunneled the crap out of her for awhile. Is this because I was absolutely sure that I wanted to lynch her? No! Is it because that's how I develop reads, by giving a shit and interacting with players to figure out their mindset? Yes! I reached the end of the tunnel, and decided she was town! Mission success!

And somehow that's a scummy thing to do?

Most of your other criticisms come from a similar place. They all rely on the fact that you have no idea how to find scum so you see me looking for scum, and it looks scummy to you. This goes for pretty much all of you guys that suspect me for various reasons. I'm sorry, you have your slower ways of scumhunting which take 2 weeks to play out, I have my aggressive ways. I am not going to change just because you guys think it's scummy.

BTW I think borno is an AMAZING LYNCH

1. to punish him for not playing
2. His most recent list of reads

Those reads are AWFUL. Who are the two main lynch candidates right now? mrbungle and nic cage. And look at how he reads them:

mrbungle:
"Mostly null, leaning a little scummy. Active player, however, something seems off in his posts."
nic cage:
"Mostly Null. Lurky, but has justified this. Hasn't posted many reads."

Really? He's null on the two players that everyone else seems to care the most about. Like, I dont know how he could possibly do a better job of having non-controversial opinions.

And he gives absolutely NO hint of who he wants to lynch. There's not even the slightest whiff of evidence that he cares about the lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: borno

I still support the nic cage lynch, but I'd really like to see him get lynched without him self-voting. And this most recent read dump from borno is just too ridiculous to ignore.

JESUS CHRIST CAN WE LYNCH THIS SHIT ALREADY

there is not a single goddamn thing wrong with borno's reads. given the information he has at this time and his level of skill. your whole case is based , it is a good basis to work with. all you are doing in this post is a more posturing and grandstanding I mean you look to scummy to breathe.

nobody is taking you seriously, it's quite amusing

lol. scum usually do. did you look at my wiki page and see how often I am nked early? there is a reason for that

[pirate mollie]

Pirate mollie, is mrbungle the only player you have a scumread on?

lol, no. I have one on nacho

I have only asked him to help me bus his scum buddy like 30 million times

[pirate mollie]

OK. this might help you understand.

For the sake of this argument, assume that we're both town. or at least assume that I'm town and assuming that you're town........ just assume that both of us are town and are assuming that the other is town.

You say nothing I do is town motivated.

I got into a big fight with you early on. I don't care about how weak the case was, such is the nature of page 2 cases. However, our argument convinced me that you're town. It helped me figure out your alignment. This was because I was able to take a step back from the argument itself, and try to see where you were coming from. That is something that you have FAILED to do. You have made no effort to see MY perspective.

if you're town, have I not done a town motivated thing by correctly figuring out your alignment?

You're approaching this issue like a child. You're still have poopy pants because i called you scum for shitty reasons early on and you have been unable to see past your anger. So get over it and stop being a broken record.

I am tired of the misrepresentation that you keep providing. I am not nor was I ever "mad". your misrepresentation makes you look scummy. if you are town then stop doing that

when I get mad you will know.

[mrbungle]

no, you looked mad. your responses was definitely as least as vitrolic as mine were, if not more. ask anyone else in the thread.

at the very least, it's righteous feminine indignation

[NicCage]

what is it about my reaction that you do not like? are you able to articulate it?

Yep, glad you asked. Your response seems overly dramatic and could be fabricated to really turn mrbungle's case against him. Before you ask, his case was bad, but reacting with that much anger could and did shake his read of you. Ideally, if you were scum you could use that momentum to get him to trip up more, being unsure of himself, and you could then use that to lynch him.
There are also a few things you said in your response that I specifically do not like. A lot of the language implies that mrbungle is scummy without adding to why. "the stickiness of your read is pretty scummy, like you look like you have been dipped in a truck stop toilet kind of scummy." Whether or not this comes from a scum motivation, the word choice is intended to cast more suspicion on mrbungle.
Though I realize mrbungle started it, I didn't really like your reaction to him saying that your vote wasn't real. Again it seems over the top and prompts another way you can argue against mrbungle, while just revoting him would have immediately ended it.
Finally I don't like this: "my flip will show that I know better. <--- I am not worried." This is unnecessary, I don't see why you need to point out your own motivations when you aren't even under a serious threat.

I think bunglebonehead is scummy cos he is dropping objective scum tells. what is your experience level? it will me to know where you are at so that I can better explain what it is that I am seeing.

I've finished 3 full games, replaced into one on the last day and finished, and I'm in one other game right now. I also played a few games on this site on a different account 5 years ago, however I was 13 and very very bad.

what has bunglebonehead done that makes him seem town to you?

Just that he wanted to get the game moving, it's not a strong townread, but I fail to see how his initial case makes you so sure that he is scum.

I couldn't tell if those were sarcastic or not.

[NicCage]

Wait, no I was 14 5 years ago.

What's interesting about it?

[pirate mollie]

no, you looked mad. your responses was definitely as least as vitrolic as mine were, if not more. ask anyone else in the thread.

at the very least, it's righteous feminine indignation

lol, vitriolic does not necessarily imply anger. apparently I am just a bully or something

what is it about my reaction that you do not like? are you able to articulate it?

Yep, glad you asked. Your response seems overly dramatic and could be fabricated to really turn mrbungle's case against him. Before you ask, his case was bad, but reacting with that much anger could and did shake his read of you. Ideally, if you were scum you could use that momentum to get him to trip up more, being unsure of himself, and you could then use that to lynch him.

well my avvie on my homesite says, "drama queen" and "diva meltsdown" is a mafia meme on that site. nacho even alluded to it. this is where meta comes into play but really, this is just the way I play mafia. I am pretty aggressive and if something is stupid I point it out. when I say, "retarded" I am referring to stunted thinking which is not an insult, it is an insult to people who are actually medically retarded to treat it as such. not sure if that is what got your panties in a twist or not.

There are also a few things you said in your response that I specifically do not like. A lot of the language implies that mrbungle is scummy without adding to why. "the stickiness of your read is pretty scummy, like you look like you have been dipped in a truck stop toilet kind of scummy." Whether or not this comes from a scum motivation, the word choice is intended to cast more suspicion on mrbungle.

scum tend to be sticky with their reads when confronted while town tends to waffle. "stickiness with his scum read" is a scumtell cos scum have to push bad cases through in order to achieve mislynch. so...I did explain why since the "why" is implicit in determining motivation wrt the language that I used.

Though I realize mrbungle started it, I didn't really like your reaction to him saying that your vote wasn't real. Again it seems over the top and prompts another way you can argue against mrbungle, while just revoting him would have immediately ended it.
Finally I don't like this: "my flip will show that I know better. <--- I am not worried." This is unnecessary, I don't see why you need to point out your own motivations when you aren't even under a serious threat.

you do realise that none of those are scumtells...right? and my motivations wrt my wc should always be loud and clear, as should everyone else's in the game. it is the basics of mafia

so far all you have said is "I don't like you" and provided spurious reasons that when taken in context, do not come from a scum POV. scum will push bad reasoning for bad cases; unfortunately newb and terrible town players will do this too.

Just that he wanted to get the game moving, it's not a strong townread, but I fail to see how his initial case makes you so sure that he is scum.

I couldn't tell if those were sarcastic or not.

activity level is not always an indication of alignment and when it is, it is a relative tell that is specific to the player involved. so bunglebonehead's push activity early in the game is in and of itself, null. it is the way he went about it that makes him look scummy to me, as in he has been misrepresenting of what is actually going on in the game itself and trying to push scumtells that are not actually scumtells. kind of like what you are doing right now.

the only thing that I like about bunglebonehead at the mo, is his list of reads. and that he is pushing for reactions which I think comes from a more town mind-set. he dropped his case on me when his points were refuted but I still have him as unsure cos of how he is trying to go about it. it just doesn't feel natural, it feels very forced.

what is weird about your stance in our kerfuffle is that you focused on my trolleytracking and yet ignored bunglebonehead's when his was the more obvious representation of it. you even gave him a town read off of it despite acknowledging that his case was shitty. right now your thoughts seem to be a bit convoluted as in how you are coming to the conclusions you are reaching and I am unable to follow the processes of how you are getting there.

so what else are you noticing

[pirate mollie]

Wait, no I was 14 5 years ago.

What's interesting about it?

okay so you are under 10 games

it would be interesting to see how many times you have played scum and how you did

What do you think of pirate mollie tunneling mrbungle?
What is the purpose of mrbungle fabricating a read on gene?

this is what I found interesting

cos bunglebonehead trolleytracked on me (I pointed this out in the above post)

but the second question is so naive that I cannot help but wonder at the legitimacy of it. fabricating reads is pure scum motivation, since in an informed minority vs uninformed majority scenario, scum have to fabricate

all

of their reads in order to authenticate their position on other player's alignments. this is mafia 101 stuff. not to mention it could be construed as cosying up to gene. which ironically is what bunglebonehead tried to accuse me of doing when I gave him a town read.

[NicCage]

Those were the things I noticed. I already realize that your wc and attitude could be part of your playstyle. I know they aren't scumtells, do you see me voting you over it?
I hardly think the things I pointed out can only come from a town POV, it could come from either and it makes me leery of you because I don't see the merits of your case.
Do you not think he was pushing for a reaction from you?
I assume trolleytracking is tunneling, and the reason I've focused on yours more than his is because he stopped and you haven't. In fact, this is the first doubt you've expressed about your read on mrbungle.
Apparently I still don't understand your case against mrbungle, weren't you going to explain it to me?

P-edit: It's probably not an amazing question, but I'm not questioning the use of fabricating reads in general, but since FLLhawk believed that mrbungle fabricated that particular read I wanted to know why he would do that. Yes it could look like he was trying to win points with gene, but I wanted to know what FLLhawk thought.

I don't have a scum meta.

[pirate mollie]

@ nicky boy

you don't see the merits of my case cos you lack experience. or you are scum. still trying to figure that out

no, I don't think he was pushing for a reaction, he seemed to genuinely push for my lynch or do you disagree with this?

he stopped cos his case was shot down. scum will back off more often than town cos town can get pretty retarded when to their pet reads.

no, I expressed doubt earlier when I said, "this is the first thing you have done that is town-oriented". what I am trying to figure out now is if you are positing a chainsaw defense or if you really are that dense.

I did explain my case on bunglebonehead, hence why I am still trying to figure out if you are really this dense.

well you not having a scum meta would explain why you cannot tell the difference between scum motivation and town motivation. your applications to determining what is scummy are overthought and thoroughly convoluted, here meet my friend his name is occam's razor.

[NicCage]

Honestly I may have missed exactly what you're seeing anyway, considering I was high up until today. You said you wanted to know my level of experience so that you could explain to me what is scummy about mrbungle, so now you know, please explain in new words so that I'll understand. Or quote and then explain, either way.

That's hardly expressing doubt and is that really an important distinction? You've expressed very little doubt.

[FLLhawk]

fllhawk, where did your scumread on mrbungle go?

I put you at number 3.

TOWN
FLL - conftown
pirate mollie - I liked her response to mrbungle's case. She's open about the tells she finds and they are well reasoned. Applies pointed pressure and doesn't back down.
David Jones - Only 7 posts, but they have been content posts. Every post gives us information about his opinions regarding other players.
gene - Looks like an uncertain newbie for most of the game. He has given reads and has given logical reasons for them. Looks like he was ready to get engaged in post 141. Wish he would jump back in.
Leviathan - Really only a couple of content posts, but he's given us a good idea what he thinks of the others. Hope he follows up on it.
Nacho - Scumhunts when he's here, but no idea where he's going with it or really what his stance is on the game.
mrbungle - Decidedly anti-town behavior early in the game. Has already voted for 6 players (5 if you exclude the self vote). Seems to switch reads on a whim.
borno - 5 posts, 1 list, no votes.
nic - Reads are full of fence sitting. Has only self-voted and hasn't voted anyone else. Tough to see where he stands on anything.
SCUM

You misunderstand, I think that levi's list is scummy, I think overly explanatory reaction to my self-vote could go either way due to mrbungle asking him questions about it.

You're right, you are waffling on Levi in general in that post, not his list. My point stands that you are fence sitting. Since you ignored points two and three of my criticism in post 184, I'll take it that you accept the fence sitting I pointed out there.

What do you think of pirate mollie tunneling mrbungle?

Some of the energy she spent on mrbungle could have been better applied to scum hunting elsewhere. Doesn't change my read on her. Sometimes people get caught up on a player.

What is the purpose of mrbungle fabricating a read on gene?

Only scum have to fabricate reads because they know who the townies are. So, if someone generates a town read based on a mischaracterization, then that looks like a scumslip to me. I didn't think of the buddying angle, but that's a good point.

[mrbungle]

nic who do you want to lynch? you';re making more sense than most yet you're not really pushing anything.

so how bout it? show your cards, man

[NicCage]

Honestly Nacho looks the worst right now, especially if what pirate mollie is saying is true.

[pirate mollie]

when you get a chance can you answer this question:

no, I don't think he was pushing for a reaction, he seemed to genuinely push for my lynch or do you disagree with this?

Honestly I may have missed exactly what you're seeing anyway, considering I was high up until today. You said you wanted to know my level of experience so that you could explain to me what is scummy about mrbungle, so now you know, please explain in new words so that I'll understand. Or quote and then explain, either way.

That's hardly expressing doubt and is that really an important distinction? You've expressed very little doubt.

bunglebonehead is:

1. pushing shitty cases
2. trying to paint what are not actual scumtells into scumtells
3. stickiness of reads but he stopped doing that ever sense I pointed out that it is what he was doing
3. this from davey guy:

you were active for the sake of being active ..you voted for every players and ended up no better than you were before voting them which in my opinion you were doing all this to make others think you are scum hunting but in reality you were just pretending and creating more confusion than get reads

4. hyper eager scumposting, not scumhunting
5. fall back when his cases are shot down

is this making sense to you now?

the majority of the content you have posted has been fluff.

[mrbungle]

@nacho

are you talking about if one rolls scum they void the one who rolls town? i don't think that's something she'd lie bout even if she were scum so I'm inclined to believe it's true

can I get any more out of you? is there another person you want to die? saying that nacho looks scummy is not exactly difficult for either alignment

[mrbungle]

ebwop

should have been @nic cage

[FLLhawk]

Honestly Nacho looks the worst right now, especially if what pirate mollie is saying is true.

This is so superficial it's ridiculous. What looks bad about Nacho if you ignore what pirate mollie says?

[mrbungle]

pirate molly you just think i'm over-scumhunting because everyone else is under-scumhunting

actually it's not even that

it's just that I'm not conforming to the 2 week long meta. and you guys aren't conforming to how I think the game should be played. so naturally there is drama. you guys aren't going to change and play the game the way I want it to be played, and vis versa. however, I have at least tried to see things from you guys' perspective. You formed an opinion in the first few pages and haven't even tried to reevaluate my play? How many times have you actually gone and read my filter and tried to see if it makes sense assuming that I'm town? That's one if the first things I did when you started arguing, and look where it got me. It landed me on a town read for ms molly. So once again, you should really start playing to your win-con and stop being so stubborn.

you say my cases are shitty. which of them do you think are shitty? please dont talk about my very first one because I agree with you about that.

you think fllhawk is looking townie? does he look like he actually cares about figuring out alignments or is he just giving blindingly obvious or non-original reasons for his scumreads and voting whoever the most popular candidate is at the time? (me, then nic cage)

You think borno looks townie? You said no, you have to take into account his skill level. Well look at gene, he is obviously someone of the same level of experience as borno (first game.) Yet gene actually looks likes he is suspicious of things. and he explains what he's thinking. All borno did was post a list a rate people according to their activity. There was no original thought in his list post. And the more controversial the player he was rating, the more null he was on them. (with emphasis on bungle and nic cage)