Newbie 1356 (OVER)

[Zoggoth]

Sorry PP, almost forgot, VOTE: Freezing-hell.

I am very uneasy about how little reasoning he gave for his [L-1] vote on Varsoon, besides Varsoon's lack of response to the questions.

I am also suspicious of DDDP for turning it into a viable wagon, before his vote, varsoon's wagon could be argued as a double OMGUS, and now a Varsoon lynch looks like the only likely outcome.

I suppose I will have to wait until the flip before making any conclusions, but if we do lynch Varsoon and he's town, those two will be the first on my list.

[Mutleyddmc]

Hmmmmm looks like it is going down to the dexter having the deciding vote. Hope one of them is scum and you choose right.

[Mutleyddmc]

I have a theory and am posting it here so it doesn't look like something I have only just though about on day 2. Won't be revealed til then any way. So please dont ask.

[Mist7676]

Ok...

I like Zoggoth's vote. More people should have Zoggoth's vote.

[dexter9264]

Still waiting on Varsoon.

Also, Zoggoth, please answer this.

I didn't get your point about the defense though. I understood from your post that Varsoon had made a legitimate defense?

[Mutleyddmc]

Ok...

I like Zoggoth's vote. More people should have Zoggoth's vote.

Quoting cos it's true sadly. It's pretty much 4 vs 4 and dexter having the decider. He is leaning varsoon

[Mist7676]

If varsoon keeps stalling, I am hammering. Scum tend to find it harder and harder to make time to post when they have suspicion.

[Messiah]

Newbie 1356 - Vote Count 1.14

---

Varsoon [L-1]

- Paid Pyro, RadiantCowbell, Debonair Danny DiPietro, freezing-hell
freezing-hell [L-2] - Mutleyddmc, Mist7676, Zoggoth
dexter9264 [L-4] - Varsoon

Not Voting (1):

dexter9264

With nine alive it takes

five

to lynch.

---

Deadline:

(expired on 2013-04-24 20:00:00)

[dexter9264]

If varsoon keeps stalling, I am hammering. Scum tend to find it harder and harder to make time to post when they have suspicion.

This. It takes town literally like 2 seconds to claim. Scum gotta think and make up a claim

[freezing-hell]

I've already said. As I'm pretty sure you are someone who says that others should go and find what has already been said.

You haven't said yet what I wanted to hear. It's very good of you to notice that I don't want the hammer to fall yet, but what does that signify? Apparently something, otherwise you wouldn't bring it up.

[freezing-hell]

Don't hammer until just before the deadline. It's only two more days, don't need to rush it now.

[freezing-hell]

So me and dddp if varsoon would flip town, who then if he flips scum?

[freezing-hell]

That was for zoggoth, sorry. Posting from my phone isn't that easy.

[Mutleyddmc]

I have to agree with what has been said. Varsoon is not helping himself and moves closer and closer to FH on my scum list.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think everyone is a bit antsy to get a hammer. Flips are information.

I hate this sort of nonsense, sure flips are information; you know what's more important than information? Lynching scum.

Even though I said it was a reaction test.

Could you have come up with a more passive-aggressive reaction test? "Guys, I'm totally getting closer to doing something, maybe" Well good for you Skippy.

I acknowledge DDDP point that the argument is circumstantial and overcomplicated, but for goodness sake everyone else! If you agree, say why, if not, tell me why I'm wrong. There is no point asking for people's opinion and then completely ignoring what they say other than to justify your own towniness. I find it difficult to believe that anyone, regardless of alignment, could be in a position where they simply don't care whether Varsoon is scum or not, and who his scum partner could be.

You might have some right to complain if you'd raised a good argument and no one responded, but can you really complain when I can so easily and sarcasticly trash your argument?

[Mutleyddmc]

VOTE: DDDP

I just don't like you. You are a bad IC imo. You are so far up yourself. Don't help anyone really, hide 'information'. Some sort of God complex. It's day 1 we are likely to hit town anyway. So I'd rather just get rid of you even if you are town now

[Varsoon]

Alright, gimme awhile to recoup, sleep, wake up, look over the thread, and make a good argument towards my townhood.

Until then, please don't lynch me. I don't think town gets much from just lynching town.

How hard is it to claim? It shouldn't take this long if you are truly town.

Zogg, did I miss your vote?

If varsoon keeps stalling, I am hammering. Scum tend to find it harder and harder to make time to post when they have suspicion.

Oh, PaidPyro, you tool, you.

Also, I'm hardly stalling. You may not have noticed, but I haven't been online for most of the weekend. Other business and all that.

Anyway, I'm town. I'm not going to tell you my role PM, as claiming either a PR or VT does too much work for scum at this point. If scum wants to see my role, they'll have to try to NK me.

That said, I'm interested in the likelihood of scum on my wagon. Zoggoth raises some good points, but I can't really discern if that's scum lining up lynches after I flip town or not. While I like that he's coming to my defense, I'm also really skeptical of his play.

My defense of Mutley was made solely in light of the previous game he was in where he pinged scum very hard despite being town, and due to his actions, that game ended up in LyLo.
I did not want to see a repeat of that game, and, furthermore, I wanted to see how Mutley would play if he was given time to outlive his scum-acting reaction-tests.
Since then, I've come to the conclusion that while acting scummy in a game certainly gives lots of reads, it also confuses town and causes lots of town in-fighting. It just doesn't benefit town that much.

In post 87, I make a small case for myself being town, but say that I'll prove my townhood if further pressured. Guess that's what's happening now.

My post 90 is a pressuring vote.

In 106, I ask players why they still have votes parked. I don't see why scum would ask this sort of thing, or why scum wouldn't just idly push for the easy wagon earlier in the game (Mutley) for a super-early D1 lynch. If I was scum, that's what I would do. As town, I want to know people's motivations behind their votes, and I want to keep town from lynching town. This is evident in lots of my posts, so feel free to ISO me and see that.

In 135, I shoot down baseless arguments for scumhood that are rooted in thinking that lurking = scum. If a player is really idle, and doesn't produce a lot of content/bandwagons a bunch, then, yeah, they're more scum-suspect than others, but I don't like starting a wagon out of flimsy arguments, nor do I like voting on one for the same reasons.

155 is a pressure vote, and RC has yet to produce any really solid content.

158 explains my 155 vote and plays towards me being town. Narrowing who you suspect to be scum is always a bad idea, and so, I always try to call attention to the fact that tunneling is happening, and try to broaden other player's views on the playerbase in a game.

I think that my 164 and 168 certainly speak towards the possibility of scum being on RC's wagon.

221 speaks towards more of my logic as town.

Anyway, I'm seeing Paid Pyro, DDDP, and Frozen Hell as my top scum-suspects at this current point in the game. PP is just too inactive for how he's playing the game/handling his votes, FH has a bad case of tunneling, and DDDP just feels like scum.

Of course, I'd like to speak towards this angle. I believe their was scum on the Muttley wagon, the RC wagon, and on my wagon. Keep in mind that Shaboostien was replaced by FH. Here's those three:

MUTLEY WAGON: Zoggoth, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Mist7676, dexter9264
RC WAGON: shaboostein, dexter9264, Mutleyddmc
VARSOON WAGON: Paid Pyro, RadiantCowbell, Debonair Danny DiPietro, freezing-hell


With DDDP and FH on two of these wagons, I'm most wary of those players.

Guess my vote stays on FH for now.

Anyway, if you lynch me, I'll flip town, and that's just not going to do a lot of work for town.
Lynch the scum, and make a good case for it.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: DDDP

I just don't like you. You are a bad IC imo. You are so far up yourself. Don't help anyone really, hide 'information'. Some sort of God complex. It's day 1 we are likely to hit town anyway. So I'd rather just get rid of you even if you are town now

Man, this speaks to the core of why I don't like DDDP as a player.
As far as me thinking he's scum, I just made a longpost for that.

[Varsoon]

I might have missed a few votes when I wrote out the wagons, as I went based off of a Messiah ISO. I think RC was also on the Mutley wagon at one point.
Anyway, that's that. No omissions or reaction testing in my post 366. Everything there is true to how I feel.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: DDDP

I just don't like you. You are a bad IC imo. You are so far up yourself. Don't help anyone really, hide 'information'. Some sort of God complex. It's day 1 we are likely to hit town anyway. So I'd rather just get rid of you even if you are town now

Man, this speaks to the core of why I don't like DDDP as a player.
As far as me thinking he's scum, I just made a longpost for that.

You do realize the extent of the reasoning you provided for me possibly being scum is that I was on two wagons, yeah? And that you completely failed to link being on multiple wagons to being scum beyond a nebulous "I feel like there was scum on these wagons" argument.

Anyways, that's less important that the fact that I'd rather lynch Mist right now; vote for her and you won't be at L-1 for long after that.

[Mutleyddmc]

Is your vote actually on FH varsoon?

[Varsoon]

Is your vote actually on FH varsoon?

VOTE: Frozen-Hell

If not, now it is.


Also, DDDP, I could levy a bigger case against you, but you're not the lynch that I want to pursue on D1. If you're town, I think you could be a valuable town player.

Also-also, I'm not going to hop on your Mist wagon (even though I had scumreads on Mist earlier in this game) solely because I'm at L-1. That'd be a shitty reason to vote, and, furthermore, you using the power of your vote on me to further fuel a Mist wagon reads as really lame in my books. I'd like to know why you proposed that option at all.

On the whole Mist thing, I have trouble reading Mist, and always feel she's scum in the games we've been in together. Something to do with post-formatting and frequency, I guess. I can never get an honest read on her that isn't leaning scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, DDDP, I could levy a bigger case against you, but you're not the lynch that I want to pursue on D1. If you're town, I think you could be a valuable town player.

Also-also, I'm not going to hop on your Mist wagon (even though I had scumreads on Mist earlier in this game) solely because I'm at L-1. That'd be a shitty reason to vote, and, furthermore, you using the power of your vote on me to further fuel a Mist wagon reads as really lame in my books. I'd like to know why you proposed that option at all.

You won't have a chance to pursue any other lynches at all if you get lynched yourself. And right now my priority list looks like this Mist > Varsoon > FH; I'm not going to bother blowing up your lynch and getting FH lynched accidentally in the process unless I might get what I really want and that requires kickstarting the Mist wagon and since I do possess leverage on you, why not use it to that end?

[Varsoon]

Oh, I don't know, because that's manipulative and a generally shitty way of going about the game?

Why not produce a hard ISO on Mist, and, you know, try to convince -all of the players of our game-, rather than pressuring me into flipping my vote onto someone I'm on the fence about solely because you have some sort of 'leverage' over me?

As far as pursuing other lynches, I think I'll have plenty of chances to do that, even from the grave. Town doesn't lose until all of town dies, and I think that my interactions now can fuel a whole lot of pro-town content even after my flip.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh, I don't know, because that's manipulative and a generally shitty way of going about the game?

Why not produce a hard ISO on Mist, and, you know, try to convince -all of the players of our game-, rather than pressuring me into flipping my vote onto someone I'm on the fence about solely because you have some sort of 'leverage' over me?

It's certainly manipulative and frankly given that Mafia is a game of manipulation I take that as a compliment. Shitty? I extended a hand to you multiple times offering you a chance to improve your position without any real cost; you instead chose to complain about playstyles and repeat "I'm town" several times instead which led you to this position where you have fewer options and perhaps none of them as good as you'd like.

You don't need to tell me how to play Mafia; I understand that Mist isn't going to be lynched off of two votes but I want those first two votes placed and then I go to work on the undecideds.

As far as pursuing other lynches, I think I'll have plenty of chances to do that, even from the grave. Town doesn't lose until all of town dies, and I think that my interactions now can fuel a whole lot of pro-town content even after my flip.

Any player who thinks they're more useful dead than alive probably deserves to be sentanced to that fate.