Micro 162 - Poetic Justice Mafia (Justice is buldermar!)

[fferyllt]

The thing that bothers me most about buldermar is his wishing he were scum. Comes off as a bit much, somehow. Still undecided.

It only bothers you because you know that I know that you know I prefer being scum over town, so you think it's a comment I'd make specifically to look town knowing that you know this. Correct?

that's part of it. it's also laying the wistfulness on a bit thick.

Minimal [3/5] - Majiffy, DCLXVI, Mac
DCLXVI [2/5] - Human Destroyer, buldermar
buldermar [1/5] - orcinus_theoriginal
orcinus_theoriginal [1/5] - Minimal

Abstained (Not Voting): pirate mollie, fferyllt

[buldermar]

There really wasn't a better way to say this?

Not one I could think of. I think I was being pretty accurate, but we'll see when ff answers.

[buldermar]

The thing that bothers me most about buldermar is his wishing he were scum. Comes off as a bit much, somehow. Still undecided.

It only bothers you because you know that I know that you know I prefer being scum over town, so you think it's a comment I'd make specifically to look town knowing that you know this. Correct?

that's part of it. it's also laying the wistfulness on a bit thick.

Oh hey I was at least in part right.

[buldermar]

If anyone other than orc wants me to respond to the above, I will. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore it. Just let me know.

Do you do this as either alignment? Because this most definitely looks like your scumplay, ignoring your accuser to buy time.

If you can find an instance of you doing this as town that would help.

You can go find one yourself and stop pretending like it would change your opinion of my alignment the slightest.

I think I do it a bit more as town than as scum, which is probably part of the reason why I also get lynched more frequently when I'm town than when I'm scum.

[buldermar]

ff, talk to me about orc? Why are you certain that he's town?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I need to know if orc is usually being this aggressive as scum or not, who has experience with his scum game?

You're not going to get anywhere with that.

[buldermar]

What do you think of his (in my opinion) tunneling on me?

What do you think of him insisting on me pretending to read DCL as scummy despite at least two other people reading him the same?

Do you think orc would be this aggressive on mislynching me as scum? (I know you don't know that I'm town, but if you go by the hypothesis of him being scum and me being town)

[buldermar]

I need to know if orc is usually being this aggressive as scum or not, who has experience with his scum game?

You're not going to get anywhere with that.

I'm not asking you.

[fferyllt]

fferyll seems very sitting-on-the-fence right now which isn't like her at all

Mac, I agree that ff looks scummy, but for different reasons.

I think it's actually quite like her not to have a ton of reads early on.

hmm.

It's actually *not* like me in the mafia environment where I grew up. I usually have a ton of tentative reads within a hundred or so posts. MS is a little frustrating at times because it takes so much longer to gather enough info for reads.

There's enough in my posts from yesterday to put someone who knows me on edge, I think. The relative lack of reads is one of the reasons. But, I'm never really sure what it is about my play that strikes people as town. It just seems to work out that way eventually.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

If anyone other than orc wants me to respond to the above, I will. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore it. Just let me know.

Do you do this as either alignment? Because this most definitely looks like your scumplay, ignoring your accuser to buy time.

If you can find an instance of you doing this as town that would help.

You can go find one yourself and stop pretending like it would change your opinion of my alignment the slightest.

I think I do it a bit more as town than as scum, which is probably part of the reason why I also get lynched more frequently when I'm town than when I'm scum.

Why are you acting like my read is set in stone when it's early day 1?

I have given no indicator of bias or whatever. Give me some places where I've been biased, since you've called me that 6 times now.

I called DCL case before I had a scumread on you. That was your original example.
I've been constantly trying to talk to you because my read isn't set in stone yet. You've helped me push it towards scum, and your insistence that my reads aren't fluid is a major component of that.
I have bought up reasons where I've disagreed with you, and you've been tossing them aside with "lolbias" which just looks to me like scum trying to avoid justifying their views.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I need to know if orc is usually being this aggressive as scum or not, who has experience with his scum game?

You're not going to get anywhere with that.

I'm not asking you.

No, I'm saving you the trouble. You're not going to get anywhere with that.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

In 334: I called DCL case shit before I had a scumread on you.

Missed a word

[buldermar]

fferyll seems very sitting-on-the-fence right now which isn't like her at all

Mac, I agree that ff looks scummy, but for different reasons.

I think it's actually quite like her not to have a ton of reads early on.

hmm.

It's actually *not* like me in the mafia environment where I grew up. I usually have a ton of tentative reads within a hundred or so posts. MS is a little frustrating at times because it takes so much longer to gather enough info for reads.

There's enough in my posts from yesterday to put someone who knows me on edge, I think. The relative lack of reads is one of the reasons. But, I'm never really sure what it is about my play that strikes people as town. It just seems to work out that way eventually.

Well you've been talking on gchat about how it's more difficult for you on MS, which is what I had in mind... I should have been more specific.

[buldermar]

Why are you acting like my read is set in stone when it's early day 1?

It's the impression I have. You keep on talking about how we're lynching buldermar today, and asking people to vote me - even people who already stated that they want to see what it is you consider so scummy in me, which you neatly deflected with "well we're all too experienced so you wont find any scumslips". It does seem quite set in stone to me.

[buldermar]

I have given no indicator of bias or whatever. Give me some places where I've been biased, since you've called me that 6 times now.

I don't think I have to, but if others need it I will. Mac already pointed out that you're tunneling on me and I'm convinced that the other players can see it as well.

I'm not really going to do anything timeconsuming for you, because I don't think you're going to be open to the possibility of me being town anyway.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Why are you acting like my read is set in stone when it's early day 1?

It's the impression I have. You keep on talking about how we're lynching buldermar today, and asking people to vote me - even people who already stated that they want to see what it is you consider so scummy in me, which you neatly deflected with "well we're all too experienced so you wont find any scumslips". It does seem quite set in stone to me.

What.

People wanted to see what it is I found scummy in you.

I deflected it? Nice try. That's a blatant misrep right there.

And actually, if anyone has been deflecting...

[fferyllt]

ff, talk to me about orc? Why are you certain that he's town?

Certain? I'm not. So far his play does look like his town games that I've played with him. I am pretty sure I've played more MS games with him than with anyone else here, and I think I have a handle on what drives his early town game. I've never seen him with a scum role, though. I *think* I'd be able to detect differences, but it might take a while. So far this lines up pretty well both with his town game and perhaps as important - with that bit of paranoia players seem to develop about me after mason-like collaborations in a game.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I have given no indicator of bias or whatever. Give me some places where I've been biased, since you've called me that 6 times now.

I don't think I have to, but if others need it I will. Mac already pointed out that you're tunneling on me and I'm convinced that the other players can see it as well.

I'm not really going to do anything timeconsuming for you, because I don't think you're going to be open to the possibility of me being town anyway.

No, you know what, you're right.

My vote is parked on you for the rest of the day.

[buldermar]

I've been constantly trying to talk to you because my read isn't set in stone yet. You've helped me push it towards scum, and your insistence that my reads aren't fluid is a major component of that.
I have bought up reasons where I've disagreed with you, and you've been tossing them aside with "lolbias" which just looks to me like scum trying to avoid justifying their views.

Okay orc, if your read on me isn't set in stone then you should stop posting from the perspective of me being scum and entertain the possibility of me being town.

I don't really get the impression that you're looking to talk to me, I get the impression that you're looking to make more accusations and call more things I do scummy to get people to vote me.

[Mac]

A few things.

-I don’t like Buldermar’s RVS play. “Stupid shit” doesn’t cut it for me if you don’t transition it into something pro-town, and goading fery seems deliberately anti-town from my POV.
-I don’t like how Buldermar subtly sells fery to me. He says that scum-fery would quickread me as town, but I’ve also seen town-fery quickread me as town. Twice, in fact. He says that it looks “somewhat scummy” in 262 without elaborating, and when pressed, his argument is:

It looks scummy because I've seen her do it as town and because she knows that I've seen her do it as town.

This doesn’t actually make sense. So playing to one’s town meta is “somewhat scummy” all of a sudden?
-He fabricates a reason to dodge answering me in 267.
-I do not believe anyone could legitimately read DCL’s majiffy vote as serious.

-I

still

think the DCL case is shit.

-His reaction to me does not come from a town perspective. Consistently he tries to get me to stop talking to him because I’m too biased. Which is pretty shitty, considering he and many other people know that my reads early-game aren’t consolidated at all, so bias is a terrible reason for tossing my opinions aside and not answering them.
-Ad populum twice in 299 and 262, which is scummy because you’re basically saying “So-and-so agrees with me, thus I am absolved of the responsibility of defending my beliefs”.

If anyone other than orc wants me to respond to the above, I will. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore it. Just let me know.

I'd like your response to this.

There's some stuff in here that could be seen as scummy and some that could not be. I've bolded something in particular which I don't see how that's scummy.

so many p-edits I'm lost.

[buldermar]

Why are you acting like my read is set in stone when it's early day 1?

It's the impression I have. You keep on talking about how we're lynching buldermar today, and asking people to vote me - even people who already stated that they want to see what it is you consider so scummy in me, which you neatly deflected with "well we're all too experienced so you wont find any scumslips". It does seem quite set in stone to me.

What.

People wanted to see what it is I found scummy in you.

I deflected it? Nice try. That's a blatant misrep right there.

And actually, if anyone has been deflecting...

I'll respond to you only if you entertain the possibility of me being town or if others want me to.

[buldermar]

ff, talk to me about orc? Why are you certain that he's town?

Certain? I'm not. So far his play does look like his town games that I've played with him. I am pretty sure I've played more MS games with him than with anyone else here, and I think I have a handle on what drives his early town game. I've never seen him with a scum role, though. I *think* I'd be able to detect differences, but it might take a while. So far this lines up pretty well both with his town game and perhaps as important - with that bit of paranoia players seem to develop about me after mason-like collaborations in a game.

Alright, I appreciate this. Could you also answer my other questions?

[Mac]

I think you're tunneling buld because I don't see any obvscum tells coming from him.

If you're going to be looking for obvscum tells, you won't find any in this game. We're all fairly decent players.

Who do you think is scum?

And yet you insist that I'm obvscum. Are you for real?

I think you're obvscum, but not for Mac's "obvscum tells", which I would assume to be the typical tells associated with normal scum. Not players of your calibre.

I thought that was fairly obvious actually.

It only bothers you because you know that I know that you know I prefer being scum over town

There really wasn't a better way to say this?

Don't quite get this post, how do you know what my obvscum tells are typically and how do they differ with buld?

[buldermar]

I have given no indicator of bias or whatever. Give me some places where I've been biased, since you've called me that 6 times now.

I don't think I have to, but if others need it I will. Mac already pointed out that you're tunneling on me and I'm convinced that the other players can see it as well.

I'm not really going to do anything timeconsuming for you, because I don't think you're going to be open to the possibility of me being town anyway.

No, you know what, you're right.

My vote is parked on you for the rest of the day.

Thanks, I suppose.

[Mac]

Consistently he tries to get me to stop talking to him because I’m too biased. Which is pretty shitty, considering he and many other people know that my reads early-game aren’t consolidated at all, so bias is a terrible reason for tossing my opinions aside and not answering them.

I've done that as town. Null tell for me.