Open 493 - Jungle Republic. (Game Over - Werewolf Victory)

[zachattack]

Rem, what did you mean by me appearing comfortable? I'm not comfortable. My biggest town read is at L-2. I'd like for that to not happen.

As for narrow focus, the majority of players haven't pinged me one way or another. I've got a pile of null reads. Good scum don't get caught Day 1 except in hindsight, it's very easy to appear town by being helpful. Take Klick. He looks townish. But he could easily be mafia hunting wolves. Or a wolf using the question phase as a red herring. I'm not comfortable calling him a town read as a result, and he is certainly not a scum read. I feel the same about most players. Once we have some flips I'm much better at breaking down motivations.

[Klick]

Couldn't that line of reasoning be used to nullify any town read ever, though? It's the likeliness that someone would do something as scum that determines a read.

Philosophy aside, I'm going to a musical soon. The reads post will definitely happen tonight.

[zachattack]

Mostly yes. Hence the narrow focus. I could do that with 95% of posts in this thread.

[Syryana]

Okay, more or less caught up now. Sorry for the inattention folks; end of April is always hell for me.

So, top scumspects: Fuzzy, Zach. Fuzzy for his opportunistic TNE vote and those other reasons I outlined in my previous post (#146 I think?). However:

Zach has now called TNE town twice for meta reasons (scum or dumb was the phrase Zach used iirc). While I do sort of agree with Zach that TNE isn't the best lynch today, I don't get two things about his(zach's) play thus far. First, why is he WKing TNE so hard thus far? I don't think TNE is a good lynch today, but zach has been pretty adamant about not lynching TNE (five of his seven posts say he doesn't want to lynch TNE, TNE is his "strongest town read", etc.).

The other thing that bugs me is his declaration in #325 that he's not got any reads on most of the players, minus TNE. Uh, in 14 pages you don't have any kind of opinion on any players except TNE? And the reason you're citing for this is that most people's motivations are WIFOM? Surely you have some gut reads, no? Not to mention your "favorite town read" could have the same logic applied to him. For example, you claim "scum or dumb, and he's dumb" as your towntell on TNE. Well, as many games as TNE has played in, don't you think he might be aware enough of his own meta to play that way as scum? Hell, he's aware enough of his own playstyle to have "I'm always inconsistent" in his sig.

I've played a game with zach before (Open 486). Granted, it's one game, but it does show something interesting. If you take a look at zachISO in that game, you'll notice that he was comfortable calling fuzzy town by post #168 thanks to some setup derp that fuzzy was perpetuating. If he really believed that crock he was saying about WIFOM motivations, he'd have had fuzzy as null in that game at that point in time.

In short, I think this is scumZach trying to emulate townZach.

VOTE: zachattack

[Does Bo Know]

I haven't posted here in a while, have I?

Give me an hour. I'll be addressing Fuzzy's TNE vote, Icebox's WIFOM, and why Zach is still scum.

[fuzzybutternut]

He also had scum and town reads before a flip in that game.
VOTE: zachattack

[Syryana]

He also had scum and town reads before a flip in that game.
VOTE: zachattack

Holy opportunism, Batman!
VOTE: fuzzybutternut

[fuzzybutternut]

The fuck? I stated a reason for voting him. I was in that game too. A point was made, and I expanded on it.

[Does Bo Know]

Hm...that recent Fuzzy vote...interesting.

Okay, so we have the issues about:

- Fuzzy's TNE vote: He calls confusing a lynch for a wagon a "scum slip." It wasn't. However, when he posts again, he shrugs it off. Looks like someone trying to ask for town approval before continuing on the wagon/lynch.
- Icebox's WIFOM: Rem made that post, and with Rem's trust tell of clarifying he's town all the time, the WIFOM doesn't fit there. A little more suspicion.
- Zach's still scum: Pretty much Syryana's case. Also, while Zach says he isn't comfortable with his biggest town read being at L-2, he certainly doesn't show it.

I'd like to hear Klick's catch up. He's been staying heavily under the radar lately.

[Bulbazak]

Oh wait, you meant the "unless we are on the same team". I actually see that as realizing he could be called out as scum with klick and feeling the need to point it out first.

Except town should never have any reason to say that. Ever. When I'm town, I can care less what people think about me. My read is my read. And I'm most certainly not going to put down a line like "unless we're on the same team". That's useless, contrary to a town mindset, and like I said before, it is giant load of WIFOM, because it causes town to flop around regarding her alignment, and hopefully, from a scum viewpoint, start to reconsider the Klick townread. Bottom line: That post was anti-town.

Unvote

Icebox has become my top scumread, and Fuzzy has exited the null range to hang out with the scummy kids. I can't remember why I was voting TNE in the first place, so I'm going to take the time to remind myself and figure out where I want to go from here.

[Icebox]

You can't remember why you voted someone and never explained why in the first place. Saying someone isn't genuine, without pointing out why to the rest of us is not helpful.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Furthermore you're using the mind-projection fallacy. So, yeah.

-Rem

[Icebox]

Bleh, that came out more antagonistic than I wanted it to. Sorry Bulb.

@Zach, if you are town, please don't say you're better after a flip. Day 2 is my favorite, I suck day one (Unless I replace in, which somehow seems to help a lot). I'm trying to get better at reading people early. Nacho told me, that learning to read people at all stages of the game is a very good idea, because you'll get steam rolled by more experienced players if you don't. Don't just pack it in and say "Well, if you let me live I can be a huge asset" just hunt now and worry about how bad you are at it later, try to make things happen. people will reveal their alignments with their actions and after flips, but if they don't take action, how are we supposed to hunt? Bo has somewhat of the right idea, he's pressuring people to do things and that's perhaps one of the most helpful things you can do any day as town, play the game and make scum play it too.

The mind projection fallacy by the way is holding yourself as the standard, that is assuming, everyone thinks or acts like you. A better way to say it is putting yourself in someone else's shoes without considering where the shoes have been. We have very different styles of play Bulbazak, and this is especially odd considering your wiki points out that you've been developing a style of play the works for both alignments. Do you think I have and have the same philosophy as you? It's quite clear our methodologies are different and that's probably a good thing.

@Mac, feel better.

-Rem

[zachattack]

Okay, more or less caught up now. Sorry for the inattention folks; end of April is always hell for me.

So, top scumspects: Fuzzy, Zach. Fuzzy for his opportunistic TNE vote and those other reasons I outlined in my previous post (#146 I think?). However:

Zach has now called TNE town twice for meta reasons (scum or dumb was the phrase Zach used iirc). While I do sort of agree with Zach that TNE isn't the best lynch today, I don't get two things about his(zach's) play thus far. First, why is he WKing TNE so hard thus far? I don't think TNE is a good lynch today, but zach has been pretty adamant about not lynching TNE (five of his seven posts say he doesn't want to lynch TNE, TNE is his "strongest town read", etc.).

The other thing that bugs me is his declaration in #325 that he's not got any reads on most of the players, minus TNE. Uh, in 14 pages you don't have any kind of opinion on any players except TNE? And the reason you're citing for this is that most people's motivations are WIFOM? Surely you have some gut reads, no? Not to mention your "favorite town read" could have the same logic applied to him. For example, you claim "scum or dumb, and he's dumb" as your towntell on TNE. Well, as many games as TNE has played in, don't you think he might be aware enough of his own meta to play that way as scum? Hell, he's aware enough of his own playstyle to have "I'm always inconsistent" in his sig.

I've played a game with zach before (Open 486). Granted, it's one game, but it does show something interesting. If you take a look at zachISO in that game, you'll notice that he was comfortable calling fuzzy town by post #168 thanks to some setup derp that fuzzy was perpetuating. If he really believed that crock he was saying about WIFOM motivations, he'd have had fuzzy as null in that game at that point in time.

In short, I think this is scumZach trying to emulate townZach.

VOTE: zachattack

There are situations where it's 90% town, 10% scum. Fuzz in that game was one. TNE in this game was another. I expressed two reads on day 1 of that game, gut scum on Johnny and town on Fuzz. I wouldn't have brought up my gut scum read if I had a strong scum read there. I've expressed 3 reads here, scum on Fuzz, Ice, and town on TNE. As for WKing TNE, he's been at L-2 for a long time. And he's not exactly done well at alleviating that suspicion. So I'd like the rest of the game to see what I see. I don't think he's playing dumb.

Fuzzes vote upgrades him from probscum to obvscum. Syryana said he thinks I'm copying my style from that game, which is wrong but valid. And then you act like I'm out of character. Maybe I'm faking it, maybe it's genuine, but I'm doing the same things I did there, and you're pretending I'm not.

Rem, I am reading people. At this point in time I'm comfortable calling town is TNE, and now Bulb is leaning town, and the only players I would vote for are you and Fuzz. Your last three posts are sketch. You said nothing worth apologizing for to Bulb. And I don't need the advice, that looks like you setting up for my town flip with "I tried to help him!".

[Icebox]

Why are you assuming you're the lynch today. (?_?)/ I agree with you on Fuzzy though. But for somewhat different reasons (he's a whole lot more stubborn as town) But I still want more information which is why my vote isn't there yet. Thank you for talking and actually saying something that puts you in this game instead of outside of it.

And no, I'm not trying to make it into your fault. I'm town this game, so I have no reason to.

I liked this reaction a lot. I'll think on it. GIF should be back soon.

UNVOTE: ZachAttack

-Rem

[Does Bo Know]

I also like Zach's reaction, for another reason. He doesn't give out town or scum reads on everyone even after being pressured.

I feel like scum, when pressured, would put more effort into making more reads to appear townie. Zach isn't doing that here. He only added that Bulb was probtown.

UNVOTE: zachattack

I'm waiting for more from Fuzzy before making a decision on him.

[zabriel]

Vote Count 1.5

Autti (freshman)
Icebox (TNE)
FBN (Klick, Zach, Mac, Syryana)
TNE (Egg, Bulba, Autti)
Bulbazak (Mac)
Zach (FBN)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is May 5th, at 5:55pm EST. ((expired on 2013-05-05 18:55:55))

[Bulbazak]

You can't remember why you voted someone and never explained why in the first place. Saying someone isn't genuine, without pointing out why to the rest of us is not helpful.

I've had a hard week and am admittedly not playing this game to the best of my ability (I think I mentioned it before. Maybe?). My head was hurting and eyes were blurring, and I was not up for trying to figure out why I voted TNE in the first place. The fact that I can't remember my initial reasons probably means that they were weak in the first place. However, I now have some stronger scumreads that I want to pursue, so I doubt I'll be putting my vote back on TNE.

Furthermore you're using the mind-projection fallacy. So, yeah.

First, that's not a real fallacy (or if so, there's a different name for it). Second, I used my point of view, because I tried using your point of view and kept on messing the sentences up (My head really wasn't in the game...). My point was that there is zero town motive for writing that sentence. Period. Town shouldn't be worried about what people think about their reads. And even if they are, there is no reason that they should ever write, "Unless we are on the same team", ever. As I explained, it is a crap ton of WIFOM, and there's zero town motive for writing it. However, there's a lot of scum motive.

Vote Icebox

[thenewearth]

He also had scum and town reads before a flip in that game.
VOTE: zachattack

Wow fuzzy... You've been sheeping the popular wagon lately. Scum much?

[Autti]

Why are you assuming you're the lynch today. (?_?)

Where did he say that?

[Klick]

He also had scum and town reads before a flip in that game.
VOTE: zachattack

Wow fuzzy... You've been sheeping the popular wagon lately. Scum much?

It's like you two are competing to be lynched.

[Autti]

He also had scum and town reads before a flip in that game.
VOTE: zachattack

Wow fuzzy... You've been sheeping the popular wagon lately. Scum much?

It's like you two are competing to be lynched.

Kind of funny that Thene just raised the "scum?" Tell that Fuzzy used last page against Thene that attracted suspicion. Circles. We're going in circles here.

[thenewearth]

Because I know fuzzy. He's not really like this when he's town

[Does Bo Know]

Autti, reads, now.

[Does Bo Know]

Because I know fuzzy. He's not really like this when he's town

How is Fuzzy when he's town?