Khan's Unnamed 3p Mafia II (Micro 175) {Game Over}

[Tierce]

PEdit: Yeah.

At which point we lynch saul for refusing to hammer.

[saulres]

The problem with this plan is, from my POV it guarantees a town win for Tierce to be your hammerer. Which is what she was arguing for me to be the hammerer. And since I'm leaning towards her being the scum, I'm unlikely to agree to vote you. And I'm sure she'll say the same thing.

This is why I think it's so important for Tierce to claim

whatever

she is, and I'll unvote her if that's what it takes. I just don't accept that Tierce is a VT also.

pedit: Exactly.

ppedit: He hasn't done any scumhunting. He's just riding the claim. That's not solid enough to be conftown.

pppedit: Then town loses.

[Zachrulez]

well if I come to the conclusion that Tierce scum, I can either compel her to hammer or do it myself.

[Zachrulez]

BTW Tierce, I'm not Zoraster...

[Tierce]

ppedit: He hasn't done any scumhunting. He's just riding the claim. That's not solid enough to be conftown.

Exactly, which means that he is the lynch, problem solved. That was my original conclusion in the whole "that's the beauty of it" that was so shamelessly stolen.

By the way, scum supersaint and Town supersaint don't work because one would just hammer each other for a Town autowin.

> Designing setups in your LyLo
> Still ages away from ever designing an Amber game


PEdit: No, but you've seen plenty of LyLos. Even if you're not a cuddly puppy of the sea, I am not trusting you with a ten foot pole.

[Tierce]

The problem with this plan is, from my POV it guarantees a town win for Tierce to be your hammerer. Which is what she was arguing for me to be the hammerer. And since I'm leaning towards her being the scum, I'm unlikely to agree to vote you. And I'm sure she'll say the same thing.

Oh, I'll vote him. Kind of silly to propose the whole thing otherwise; the outcome would just be my lynch and a sure Town loss.

[Zachrulez]

Actually having a scum supersaint in the game doesn't really matter from a setup standpoint. It would just clue the scum in to think before quickhammering.

I mean I'm just talking from a purely hypothetical standpoint here.

[saulres]

By the way, scum supersaint and Town supersaint don't work because one would just hammer each other for a Town autowin.

Nope. It does work, because the town one still needs to convince the other townie which one to vote for. That's what LyLo's all about.

pedit: Awesome. So do it. Otherwise it's just lip service. Scum could easily conceive a plan like that hoping it makes them look townie enough to have the supersaint pick the other person.

[Zachrulez]

Tierce ain't claiming. There's no point.

[Tierce]

Can you describe your emotional state right now, Zach?


PEdit: No, saul. One supersaint self-votes and the other hammers. Whatever the result, they are both dead, Town wins. The non-supersaint Townie doesn't vote.
...Did you just ask me to hammer? Because last I looked, your name is not Zach.

[Zachrulez]

What he's saying is that if you're a supersaint, we crossvote and he chooses who to hammer.

Of course he's currently voting you, so he might be hoping I've forgotten that.

[Zachrulez]

But it doesn't matter. Whether you're VT or Supersaint, I don't find either scenario acceptable, so you don't need to claim.

[saulres]

Numbering these so I can get to them in some sort of organized fashion. I apologize for splitting it up over multiple posts but today I just can't do it all at once.

Behold! She lives!

One

I'm pondering that after he saw this:

Tierce and I can call each other scum while zach-scum goes on to win

he couldn't resist setting it up that way. There's a 50-50 chance of that from where I'm sitting.

Setting the game up like this on purpose would be immoral; you're a mod, you know this. I know you go on wild speculation as Town, but why would you suggest KK is doing something like that? I think this is null, because I can't find

any

game-relevant motivation to say this (other than "let's make up random stuff to cover up the Zach rolefishing", but that's seems too far-fetched). But, by the way, this is kind of offensive to suggest regardless of whether you believe it or not (if you're scum, it's obvious pretense). Mods are not supposed to set up things like this on purpose. Don't suggest they do, that's gaming the mod and questioning their moral code.

Two

I'm also wondering about this:

The game is in LYLO and will continue as long as necessary.

Theoretically we could all just not vote forever until he breaks down and tells us who the scum is just to end it.

Let's try something.

VOTE: Kublai Khan

This is scummy. It's much the same as NS's mod-vote in Vi's Mafia in Triplicate; it's a joke, and it

was

funny when I read it, but--you read the previous 3p game. Like with the wincon bit, it was in the rules in that game as well. You said you didn't read the rules in the previous game, but it's a

3p

game and you know there is a scum player due to said wincon and the fact that we are in LyLo, so we can't be "all Town", as you say you wondered. I know you're a rational person--speculation is not discordance, but in this game you have rather dissonant frames of mind. Did you or did you not know this was in LyLo/there is a scum player? Did you or did you not know that the wincon is the same as the previous game, so super saints are irrelevant to it because that's how KK writes things? The lack of knowledge makes no sense from a Town player who read the 3p Daycop game and who wants to verify things before making assumptions on roles. You're pretending not to know things to try and fish information out of Zach. However, I will grant you that I don't think you were familiar with super saints before this game, though you are familiar with vengekill roles.
Ramble ramble ramble etc. My point when I started this paragraph was that voting the mod is a cheap Towntell. My main point of contention here is: you were in Maf.Triplicate, you know I don't go on those things as evidences of Townieness, so it kind of doubles around and I go back to not thinking there's a lot of scum intent there. But it still looks fake, like you have nothing better to do yet are afraid to admit it, and chose to make that post out of a feeling of awkwardness.

Three

But his not hammering me tells me I'm right.

I expect you mean hammering

me

, not

you

, but:
Claiming supersaint is suboptimal (Zach appears to have wondered if it was an iffy claim to make, if you look at Post 12) and you're trying to paint me as scummy for a theory point that is on the Super Saint wiki page, which you probably read if you were going through SS3. It doesn't matter if you "knew" the role or not, you're calling me scum for making a decision...

too quickly?

You do know I read a lot of games, right? Let's add that one of my first IRC mafia games was SS3 and I was the super saint. Also Open 390, with the Brass and Shrapnel setup. I don't have to wait on you to know things I've known for a year and a half about the SS/vengeful role.

I know it's not optimal to claim vengeful, and therefore have no interest in claiming or counterclaiming or co-claiming or

anything

in these circumstances. Consider the hypothetical scenario in which I'm a super saint, Zach is scum and knows there is a super saint in the game. He can self-vote on page 1 without worry, because neither of us is the kind to trollhammer as Town. He claims super saint, and if he's lucky, you either blurt out you are a VT, or I counterclaim. Then he knows you have to be the lynch, therefore won't hammer the real super saint (me). (Hypothetical scenario 2 is Zach is a Jester, and wants to be lynched (SS would be an AWESOME claim in that case), but regardless of my role, he can't be a Jester because it's not a Mafia-aligned role and it's not present in the win conditions.)
Outside any hypothetical scenario, I'm not going to be lynched in this game (you are NOT going to add to my two mislynches), and neither are you. Zach is the lynch, and he gets to pick who hammers him after self-voting. And I promise I won't laugh at you for self-voting even if you're scum, Zach~

Four

No, Tierce, lynching Zach is

not

the way to go if you're town. Town would look at the things at their VT role (as I did), the wording of the town win condition ("dead", not "lynched"), and come to my conclusion that he's telling the truth.

...And? If he's telling the truth, he is still the lynch. Choosing to lynch a claimed super saint is not scummy, but you're trying to say it is:

And was I shocked to see her vote you right off the bat like that, instead of taking time to think it through. If she's "inclined to think that saul is scum" then she should have voted for me, not for you.

Bonus points for the posturing in the first sentence.

Incidentally, you shouldn't have claimed, Zach. I think. But that cow's been milked.

This statement is not said from town to someone they think is scum.

See above, under the LOLNOPE NOT CLAIMING section. It wouldn't be optimal for me to counterclaim as a supersaint, and I am not clarifying things on that end. It doesn't matter, because

I'm not the lynch

.

I think saul is scum, but it's up to Zach. #YOLetc.

pedit: Man I'm tired of typing "pedit" LOL.

But if one supersaint self-votes, and if it's the town one, the scum doesn't hammer. And if it's the scum one, then -- but if the scum doesn't self-vote then -- oh. I see. Bad me

So we're back to the setup I first speculated (not the KK one, the other one -- SS3 I think).

[Zachrulez]

Can you describe your emotional state right now, Zach?

Something like aiutgioawrtipugpigasdfbgaiwgtripugwaipgvksgdfigaiwetrgpiouagwipguiasgfiawggpiuh!

[Zachrulez]

So, who dies?

[Tierce]

I think he was expecting me to hammer you on the grounds of my "Oh, I'll vote him" words. Which was in answer to "If Zach asks me to hammer", not just hammering Zach out of the blue without him picking. I'm sleepy, not out of my wits.

Seriously, Zach. I want an actual description (though I understand the emotional value of keysmashing all too well).

[Tierce]

So, who dies?

You!

Who else?

[Zachrulez]

Annoyed that this pretty much is the best solution. If I don't do this, we're probably not going to get anywhere ever.

[Zachrulez]

So, who dies?

You!

Who else?

Well yeah, obviously I do. What I'm asking you to do is convince me who dies with me.

(Oh, and I only die if I'm wrong, no pressure right?)

[Zachrulez]

Kublai Khan really is a mad genius here, this is one hell of a stand off.

Come play this 3p game with me, she said.
It will be fun, she said.

You convinced me to play this... imagine how I feel!

[Tierce]

I kind of really hope Zach is scum and made the worst gambit of his life and is trying to figure out how to get out of this situation.

Because that would be horribly satisfying in a really mean way.


PEdit the First: Annoyed? Annoyed is... ack. I don't remember being annoyed as the decision-maker in LyLo. I remember being relieved, frustrated, scared, but... not annoyed. I didn't have to self-vote, but... I really don't think that fits anyway, the end result is the same, and I

hate

being lynched to begin with, but this is the best solution. I don't see why I would be annoyed if I was the one being lynched and making that decision. I would see me being annoyed if I had to hammer a claimed supersaint Townread (which was what I felt over Open 390 while knowing Fate would coast to a win the next Day), but

the lynchee

?

Now I'm more confused than before. But kind of relieved, because that doesn't make much sense as Town emotions right now.


PEdit the Second: I'm trying to. You're not particularly helping.

[saulres]

ou convinced me to play this... imagine how I feel!

She told me when Jake dropped out too

I only die if I'm wrong, no pressure right?

No. Because if you're wrong, that means you picked me, and I won't vote you unless I think you're scum. Tierce doesn't have credibility in my eyes to call your claim a false one; she has given

no

evidence to the contrary.

[Zachrulez]

I kind of really hope Zach is scum and made the worst gambit of his life and is trying to figure out how to get out of this situation.

Because that would be horribly satisfying in a really mean way.

There is no way out for hyposcum Zach. But none of what hyposcum Zach would have done to this point makes any sense to begin with... so... ect.

PEdit the First: Annoyed? Annoyed is... ack. I don't remember being annoyed as the decision-maker in LyLo. I remember being relieved, frustrated, scared, but... not annoyed. I didn't have to self-vote, but... I really don't think that fits anyway, the end result is the same, and I

hate

being lynched to begin with, but this is the best solution. I don't see why I would be annoyed if I was the one being lynched and making that decision. I would see me being annoyed if I had to hammer a claimed supersaint Townread (which was what I felt over Open 390 while knowing Fate would coast to a win the next Day), but

the lynchee

?

Now I'm more confused than before. But kind of relieved, because that doesn't make much sense as Town emotions right now.


PEdit the Second: I'm trying to. You're not particularly helping.

I haven't been mislynched since the summer of 2009. So there's a lot at stake for me on a personal achievement level.

I would prefer there is some other resolution to this but there's not.

[Zachrulez]

But there's really no need to analyze me at this point, you pretty much just lynch me if I unvote before picking someone to hammer me.

[saulres]

Responding to Tierce point

One

You say you see no game-relevant information for that? That's correct, there wasn't. That's 9 posts into a game where we can't RVS, and you had only sent out one throwaway line. Until you were also talking there wasn't much I felt I could do as a VT, so I was having conversation for conversation's sake. Much like Zach's first post (3) and your first post (5). Nothing game-relevant there either.

Suggesting that I was offensive to KK for suggesting it? Let's see, post-game, if he felt that way. I think he saw where I was coming from and it wasn't an issue for him. But nice of you to try to paint me as "immoral" and "offensive" -- that's a form of AtE.