Mini 1449 - Ordinary Town

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@ Toomai - why do you think Nic is scum and what do you think of the recent votes on Scott.

Also what's your read on scott.

Thanks

-J

btw, consider my vote still on Nic, I just want to make sure I get the answer to my questions.

[Cheery Pie]

Go to the last VC and what is happening. Varsoon is getting ran up against NC. What is the reaction from Varsoon? Attack a player who is voting NC. That accomplishes absolutely nothing from a scum perspective and instead is more of throwing rocks at a hornet nest. Not only is he making a vote that keeps him closer to a lynch as the leading wagon while easily being able to vote NC, but it also stands the chance of angering a player off the wagon who is defending him.

That doesn't explain why he was town beforehand that point.

and I still disagree, simply because that vote and reasons given looks to me like weak distancing and thus that he's moved somewhere else won't change my mind.

Which therefore means I'm now reading you slightly scummy, and the fact you've explained some differences doesn't mean much to me. (probably because my own hydra isn't working seamlessly either, by which I'm waiting for Pie to see if it also looks that way to him or if I'm just way too annoyed about the constant "I'm town" comments coming from Varsoon that I've started tunneling.

[hapahauli]

bear with me, I just saw something interesting.

The floor is yours.

@Hapa

- I was expecting a summary...
I agree with the last paragraph of the first link and that post #241 is scummy. Everything else is pretty meh tbh.
Anyway, it's better than my (mostly) gut scum read on Cage. I'll support the Scott waggon for now.

VOTE: Scott
Btw, what is your definition of an active lurker? I'm quite sure Varsoon is a perfect example. He's just talking bs all the time yet you say he's not one?

My definition of an active lurker is what your other half is pulling right now.

But in all seriousness, there's no such thing as an absolute heuristic when scumhunting. So you can label Varsoon an active lurker if you want, but I believe he's town due to his general attitude and complete lack of guilt/fear when posting. I believe that's a strong tell that supercedes any accusations of active lurking.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

The floor is yours.

I will get to it, it may be nothing but I wanna bounce it off my other half.

[hapahauli]

Go to the last VC and what is happening. Varsoon is getting ran up against NC. What is the reaction from Varsoon? Attack a player who is voting NC. That accomplishes absolutely nothing from a scum perspective and instead is more of throwing rocks at a hornet nest. Not only is he making a vote that keeps him closer to a lynch as the leading wagon while easily being able to vote NC, but it also stands the chance of angering a player off the wagon who is defending him.

That doesn't explain why he was town beforehand that point.

and I still disagree, simply because that vote and reasons given looks to me like weak distancing and thus that he's moved somewhere else won't change my mind.

Which therefore means I'm now reading you slightly scummy, and the fact you've explained some differences doesn't mean much to me. (probably because my own hydra isn't working seamlessly either, by which I'm waiting for Pie to see if it also looks that way to him or if

I'm just way too annoyed about the constant "I'm town" comments coming from Varsoon that I've started tunneling.

Cheery, you need to unvote Varsoon and start talking about someone who actually has a chance of getting lynched.

Thoughts on NC and Scott would be helpful.

[Cheery Pie]

@Hapa

I think the reason people asked again for your scott case was possibly because of this at the end of it.

And what's more about all of this.. he just seems really... angry. He has a very critical tone, and seems like he's going after players because he's critical of their playstyle rather than because he thinks they're actually scummy. I'm unsure how much of this observation is me being potentially confirmation biased, so I'll look at it again and attempt to articulate it better.

I'm not entirely convinced about him by your case on him, in detail you're attacking him for doing playstyle stuff, when basically that's what I'm seeing you're going after on him.

[Cheery Pie]

Cheery, you need to unvote Varsoon and start talking about someone who actually has a chance of getting lynched.

Thoughts on NC and Scott would be helpful.

As far as I've aware, he does still have a chance of being lynched, just because you're not going to place your on him, doesn't mean that everyone else follows your thought process.

As for Nic, I'm not as convinced he is scum as I was earlier in the day, and if I were to vote him, he'd be practically lynched, seeing as Jake has unvoted for just a second and considers his vote still there.
His wagon has also been around for the whole day, and I'm really not sure it would be a good choice to actually go through now.

[hapahauli]

@Hapa

I think the reason people asked again for your scott case was possibly because of this at the end of it.

And what's more about all of this.. he just seems really... angry. He has a very critical tone, and seems like he's going after players because he's critical of their playstyle rather than because he thinks they're actually scummy. I'm unsure how much of this observation is me being potentially confirmation biased, so I'll look at it again and attempt to articulate it better.

I'm not entirely convinced about him by your case on him, in detail you're attacking him for doing playstyle stuff, when basically that's what I'm seeing you're going after on him.

I don't think it's all playstyle stuff. He goes around with these one-liner prods of suspicion and never follows up on them. He's done it to like 5 players. Furthermore, there's that post he directed to Daemon in which he tries to take credit for shit he clearly didn't do. Couple it with general lurkiness, and I think we have a scum-candidate.

And if you still think that's "playstyle..." is that not exactly what you're doing with Toomai? I've heard plenty about how you're pissed off that he's saying "I'm Town," and virtually no other substance.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

While I wait for Toomai, I decide to look over the low posters.

Dyslexion - hasn't posted since Saturday but has managed 11 posts between yesterday and today (if you are town, diaf)
AC1983 - doesn't have posts anywhere else but here so while I want him to increase his activity, he doesn't seem to be avoiding the game
Nic - Has only 1 post since his last post here, and his posts here haven't been that great. Still think he is scum.
Daemon - same as AC1983 basically
Zelfind - same as AC1983 basically
Scott - Same as AC1983

my biggest issue with AC/Daemon/zelfind/Scott is essentially lack of activity is slowing the game down. I realize not everyone can be online all day/every day but these guys really need to try and post more.

Dyslexion gets a big FOS from me, because avoiding a game has no town motivation at all. If he is town, like I said above he can go diaf.

/rant

-J

[hapahauli]

It's times like this I wish I could double lynch. Maybe even triple lynch a bunch of lurkers. Sigh.

[Scott Brosius]

My part again (im probably going to be the one more jumping on defending town reads - that's more my loyalty style).

We basically have seen Varsoon on this page again show why he is town. Is he frustrating town that makes me audably groan reading most of his posts? Yes. Is that still town? Yes.

Go to the last VC and what is happening. Varsoon is getting ran up against NC. What is the reaction from Varsoon? Attack a player who is voting NC. That accomplishes absolutely nothing from a scum perspective and instead is more of throwing rocks at a hornet nest. Not only is he making a vote that keeps him closer to a lynch as the leading wagon while easily being able to vote NC, but it also stands the chance of angering a player off the wagon who is defending him.

Scum are rarely borderline suicidal like that and I think anypony who really is thinking even shortterm should be able to see the high potential ramifications of making the type of vote he is, continuing the style of play he has gotten slammed for in that type of direction is just bad town play instead of bad scum play.

So Varsoon wagon. Go away.

NC is good, SB is good, GCBC is actually quite decent as well.

Need to talk with my other half but CGBC in 309 is all kinds of scum. NC still is really scummy (still kinda waiting for that Varsoon lynch reasoning) though, and im happy leaving the vote there.

Also four days to deadline, and im having mild connection issues (which look like they will persist for a couple weeks). Nothing that warrents replacing but just less accessable than normal self.

I don't buy this about Varsoon though. The behavior was immediately reinforced as town by hap, the most vocal player in the thread who essentially said he was obviously town...so why not continue it?

Why does it matter if there's a few days left?

Eh I guess you're right. We do kind of need enough time for him to claim.

Vote: NicCage

[L-1]

This is scummy. Seems opportunistic with weak reasoning and just giving in to GCBC's point. Also I agree with GCBC that the initial post about waiting seems like Toomai is wanting to look town. Combined with the way that the Toomai wagon slowly disintegrated makes me suspicious.

My vote remains on Varsoon, but I won't be voting outside of him or Toomai.

What exactly is the NC case? Going through his ISO, it really just looks like crappy town newb play more than anything else.

[hapahauli]

@ Scott

I don't buy this about Varsoon though. The behavior was immediately reinforced as town by hap, the most vocal player in the thread who essentially said he was obviously town...so why not continue it?

Regarding Varsoon, why don't you "buy it"? Unjustified statements like that will get you nowhere.

What exactly is the NC case? Going through his ISO, it really just looks like crappy town newb play more than anything else.

NC isn't a newb.

[Daemon385]

While I wait for Toomai, I decide to look over the low posters.

Dyslexion - hasn't posted since Saturday but has managed 11 posts between yesterday and today (if you are town, diaf)
AC1983 - doesn't have posts anywhere else but here so while I want him to increase his activity, he doesn't seem to be avoiding the game
Nic - Has only 1 post since his last post here, and his posts here haven't been that great. Still think he is scum.
Daemon - same as AC1983 basically
Zelfind - same as AC1983 basically
Scott - Same as AC1983

my biggest issue with AC/Daemon/zelfind/Scott is essentially lack of activity is slowing the game down. I realize not everyone can be online all day/every day but these guys really need to try and post more.

Dyslexion gets a big FOS from me, because avoiding a game has no town motivation at all. If he is town, like I said above he can go diaf.

/rant

-J

I'm honestly suprised NicCage and Scott aren't defending themselves more to be honest. Though it is true not everyone can be on all day everyday. You'd think when they do post they would give more of a reason why they should not be voted for. Also I'm working on my posts a bit more since I started this game, trying to get a bit more content and learning what I can do to make that content better.

[Toomai]

@ Toomai - why do you think Nic is scum and what do you think of the recent votes on Scott.

Also what's your read on scott.

NC asked an arguably suspicion-shifting question in 38, sheeped in 52, uses 212 to call my mistakes scumslips (that might be putting it a bit strong but that's kind of what I see right now), and in 302 called a player town with no reason even though said player had not done anything in 80 posts.

I have SB as null/very weak scum. I can see why people don't like what he's doing (e.g. 215) but don't currently think it's worth my vote.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

ok, I thought i had seen a weird toom/SB connection but after that response and going back and looking in detail, I mis-read.

Vote: Nic

back to L-1

[Scott Brosius]

@ Scott

I don't buy this about Varsoon though. The behavior was immediately reinforced as town by hap, the most vocal player in the thread who essentially said he was obviously town...so why not continue it?

Regarding Varsoon, why don't you "buy it"? Unjustified statements like that will get you nowhere.

What exactly is the NC case? Going through his ISO, it really just looks like crappy town newb play more than anything else.

NC isn't a newb.

The justification comes after that statement. When he acts like that and you being the most vocal player in thread immediately reinforce that behavior as being apparently obvtown, why not continue that behavior?

Regarding NC, I'm going off of join date and quality of posts. Seems pretty inexperienced to me.

[Cheery Pie]

I don't think it's all playstyle stuff. He goes around with these one-liner prods of suspicion and never follows up on them. He's done it to like 5 players. Furthermore, there's that post he directed to Daemon in which he tries to take credit for shit he clearly didn't do. Couple it with general lurkiness, and I think we have a scum-candidate.

And if you still think that's "playstyle..." is that not exactly what you're doing with Toomai? I've heard plenty about how you're pissed off that he's saying "I'm Town," and virtually no other substance.

I haven't done anything with Toomai.

I can see previous games from both Varsson and Scott, Varsson hasn't been trying to make truth by repetition in previous games. Scott has used one-liner attacks he hasn't followed up in previous games.
It's not good play, but it doesn't necessary make him scum.

[hapahauli]

@ Scott

I don't buy this about Varsoon though. The behavior was immediately reinforced as town by hap, the most vocal player in the thread who essentially said he was obviously town...so why not continue it?

Regarding Varsoon, why don't you "buy it"? Unjustified statements like that will get you nowhere.

What exactly is the NC case? Going through his ISO, it really just looks like crappy town newb play more than anything else.

NC isn't a newb.

The justification comes after that statement. When he acts like that and you being the most vocal player in thread immediately reinforce that behavior as being apparently obvtown, why not continue that behavior?

Ok that's justification for him being not town. What's the justification for him being scum? He seems like a really active, beligerant dude, and that's pretty townie.

Furthermore, I don't understand why my defense of him would be enough backing for him to show such "fearless" behavior when people were voting him left and right despite my defense. The guy had 5 votes on him and continued to be antagonistic. That's pretty darn townie.

Regarding NC, I'm going off of join date and quality of posts. Seems pretty inexperienced to me.

He's been "hungover" for like 5 days and not posting. I don't consider that inexperienced. That's called not giving a shit about the game, and therefore scummy.

[Dyslexicon]

Dyslexion - hasn't posted since Saturday but has managed 11 posts between yesterday and today (if you are town, diaf)
/rant

-J

You're so right! I'm not giving this game the love it deserves at all!

Basically I'm seeing this probably heading to a NC lynch, which is perfectly fine with me, because he is scummy. Or rather was, cause most of the scummy stuff was more in the very beginning of the game, and now he is kind of gone.

Scott - It's not only that he makes short comments and not following up, it's that it seems insinuating, and thus like he hopes someone else will follow up. Doesn't look good at all.

Don't be hating on Varsoon, he's cute whatever alignment he might be. I'd guess town, mostly because there's more town, lol.

Holy shit.
VOTE: Varsoon
I'm sorry I have 0 patience for this.

Um, are you not the guy who is "conservative" with his vote?

[hapahauli]

Um, are you not the guy who is "conservative" with his vote?

That... that is a fantastic observation.

This one needs some explaining from acfan.

[hapahauli]

Actually ya know what, I like that a lot. I think ac1983 fan is scum.

VOTE: ac1983fan

I also have doubts about scum right now. Scott has a golden opportunity to hammer NC right now, and the fact that he's not taking it makes me question my initial read. I don't think both NC and Scott are a scumteam either... this game has been too passive overall for two scum to be on the block right now.

I had dismissed ac1983fan initially because I thought his whole voting interaction with Varsoon looked a lot like an emotional townie. However as Dyslexicon points out, it's very inconsistent with the mentality he presented earlier in the game.

Shh anyone who has played with me before (and there are indeed a few in this game) knows that I am a conservative voter and frequently have no vote out when I do not think it is appropriate so this is not a scumtell for me it is just playstyle

Interesting right? This mentality makes no sense with the "OMG I HAVE ZERO TOLERANCE FOR U" mentality that he presented with his vote on Varsoon:

Holy shit.
VOTE: Varsoon
I'm sorry I have 0 patience for this.

Furthermore, his rationale for voting Varsoon is unbelievably sketchy.

Now it is totally within Varsoon's right to play this game in that way

, but I find the fact that he refuses to actually substantiate his claims to be just wrong. Obviously my vote is subject to change pending future postings but as of the moment I am 100% comfortable with lynching Varsoon

RE the bolded... that rationale makes very little sense if ac1983fan is voting Varsoon because he has a scumread on him. "You have the right to play the way you're doing as scum, but I'm going to lynch you for it" makes no coherent sense. In fact, it seems like he's treating Varsoon as if he

knows

he's town.

i.e. "You have the right to play the way you are as town, but it's horrendously anti-town and I will lynch you for it."

The thing is

Varsoon, is I'm not voting you because you look scummy.

I'm voting you because you are being anti-town (and a bit of an ass about it), and on D1, anti-town play is just as good as scummy vibes,

especially for a player like me who is shit at this game in general.

And again, he's not voting Varsoon because he thinks he's scum. Then afterwards, immediately discredits his own opinion by calling himself "shit."

He "explained" this in later posts that he's wants to kill people for anti-town play in general, but I don't buy it at all.

Rainbowdash, I'll get to your post about him voting based on "anti-town" behavior in his previous games. There are huge differences, and I believe his behavior here is VERY noticeably different from his previous town games in which he's done this kind of stuff.

[hapahauli]

Also, if ANYONE hammers NicCage before I get complete responses from ac1983fan, it should be considered a scum-claim and an auto-lynch tomorrow.

[GoodCopBadCop]

@Scott

The justification comes after that statement. When he acts like that and you being the most vocal player in thread immediately reinforce that behavior as being apparently obvtown, why not continue that behavior?

Agreed, though I doubt he's scum. JFR's explanation makes sense.

- GC

[hapahauli]

ac1983fan

needs to HANG IMMEDIATELY

I just did a quick search of ac1983 for the phrase "anti-town" and I come across 2 open games where he was town in both and he voted players for being anti-town, one of those players (belisarus) was actually scum.

ac using anti-town is par for him and isn't a policy lynch, so can we please end this stupid conversation about policy lynching?

...

I admire the effort, but you didn't dig nearly carefully enough into his past games. There's a

huge

difference in mentality between ac1983 fan's anti-town votes in his previous town games and in this one.

Town ac1983fan DOES NOT lynch people solely for being anti-town. There is no doubt that he is very conscious about anti-town behavior, but he consistently votes people for being anti-town AND scum. NOT JUST being anti-town.

----------------------------
In Mini 742, consider these selections of quotes:

I didn't even think of AlaJ, because he just crossed my mind... I do think he is scum though. Grimmy I'm more neutral on, but his behavior was antitown.

NOT voting the anti-town guy, and instead voting someone he thinks he's scum.

I find it hilarious that Braeden's last post was "I'm not being replaced".
I really don't like the way CTD is acting in regards to the fonz; Fonz said Grimmy was more anti-town than scummy. Anti-town != scummy.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Criticizes someone for equating anti-town behavior with scummy behavior!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vote: alabaska

Alabaska behavior is both scummy and anti-town.

...

vote: grimmy

...
I still find jebus scummy, but if grimmy's play so far isn't anti-town and/or scummy, I don't know what is.

Voting someone for being anti-town AND scummy.
----------------------------

Thing is,

the mentality I show above is NOT isolated to only one of his town-games.

It is

consistent

throughout

every

one of his town games.
Mini 480:

We could just lynch him now but I think that's technically anti-town and what not. But I think his play is generally anti-town. (but well my play is generally anti-town BUT I TRY DAMMIT I TRY SO HARD *sobs in corner*)

Showing

hesitancy

for lynching a player solely based on being anti-town!

Why are you getting so mad about this?
I am skimming them, but my point is merely that they are not as helpful as they might seem; it's more anti-town then it is scummy but still.

Once again FAILING to equate being anti-town with a vote justification
Lastly, he ends up voting a player (Belisarius) in this game NOT because he's "anti-town" but for a host of very well justified reasons, enforcing the point that

town ac1983fan is not a player that rashly lynches solely on the basis of someone behaving anti-town!

-------------------------------
The

only

meta point I can find in ac1983fan's defense is from Open 411:

unvote
VOTE: Nobody Special

NS has been totally useless all game and frankly I don't care if it's your meta to lurk and not post much, but beyond that, you've hung onto a RV against Ald the entire game, then admit to tunneling and say that because he had to "go all townie" you need to scumhunt... But yet you still keep your vote on him? How hypocritical.
It seems like people are backing off the Ald wagon, and while I'd rather not force another claim, frankly NS has done nothing for the town and his last post really struck a nerve with me.
Anyone else want to join me?

I feel like his play here has been scummier than his typical play.
Also anti-town play should make a player worthy of being lynched, regardless of whether or not that's his or her playstyle.

In the second quote, he states that anti-town behavior can "make a player worthy of being lynched."

HOWEVER, the context of this quote is incredibly different. He's voting a player for which he has

independent rationale to think that he's actually scummy rather than just anti-town

.

This should ALSO demonstrate the point that ac1983fan is not a player that votes people solely (and rashly) on the basis of being anti-town. He votes them for being

SCUMMY

.

[hapahauli]

I love you Dyslexicon. Thank you for making me look at this guy again.

ac1983fan

is scum. No doubt about it.

There are

zero

redeeming features in his filter. The only analysis he did (and meager) at that was against Dyslexicon, for which he

completely

dropped to vote Varsoon for being anti-town.

That's a fucking scumclaim. It's so insanely far-off from ANY of his town-mentalities.

Absolutely everything makes sense. Him riding a 3rd-party wagon (Varsoon) while soft-pushing the Nic lynch. Hell he defended Nic in the early-game for these reasons:

I'm not sure why NicCage has rounded up so many votes so quickly. it seems like people have latched onto a small handful of things he's said and jumped to seemingly ridiculous conclusions. I don't see how we have enough information about him to justify the number of votes he has. I think NC is more likely town whose wagon is being pushed by scum because it could feasibly give an easy d1 lynch for them.

Skepticism by the easiness of the wagon against NC.

Then all of a sudden when NC

really

starts to be a lynch-risk...

I'm still wary of Dyslexicon, and NicCage's latest post is openly admitted anti-town play, so I guess I can see why there is a wagon on him again.

Additionally, the two biggest wagons at the moment are against Varsoon and NicCage, both of whom I've seen heavy anti-town behavior from.

"Hey guys! I'm going to hang out over here and vote for a townie, but you guys are more than welcome to lynch another one!"

He completely forgets about his skepticism towards the NC wagon and starts off with his anti-town justifications again. Notice how he's NOT justifying lynching NC because he thinks NC is scum. He is "acquiescing" to the wagon because he wants to lynch townies for being anti-town.

ac1983fan

needs to HANG.

HANG HANG HANG HANG.