Mini 1449 - Ordinary Town

[ac1983fan]

Reads based on ISOs...
Cheery Pie = Seems town. Their thinking seems in line with mine most of the time. Their initial push on NicCage I'm not sure I liked but doesn't seem like it comes from a scum perspective.
Daemon385 = primarily null/newb. His initial post looked scummy but I think that was a misread. He tends to follow others but that's not necessarily scummy, although can be suspicious.
Dyslexicon = Very light scumread for reasons previously stated. It doesn't feel like there is any attempt at contributing anything in his posts, but there haven't been very many of them. I really didn't like his vote on NC. I'm not very confident in that though.
GoodCopBadCop = null, slight town, mostly gut.
hapahauli = ObvTown. I don't see a player making a case like that on me unless they honestly believed I was scum.
hp[leaves] = Uncomfortably quiet. Light scum read.
Jake from Rainbowdash = Generally town read.
NicCage = The early suspicion of NicCage made me uncomfrotable, and I still don't see any scummy behavior out of him, just a fair amount of anti-town behavior. Null, ever so slightly leaning town.
Scott Brosius = Another rather quiet player, but when he posts it doesn't seem particularly scummy. Null.
Toomai = Same as Brosius; null.
Varsoon = I don't have a read on him either way but his anti-town behavior is overbearing.
zefiend = I honestly keep forgetting this guy is even playing and the fact that he has been able to slide into the background unnoticed makes me quite uncomfortable.

-----------
Hapa hauli, did you ever care to look at any of the dates on my postings?
All of the examples you cite, barring Open 411, were from games that I played in

Over four years ago

. Or more. I was 16 or younger at any given moment while playing those games.

I was also an idiot but that is not really relevant.

My playstyle has changed significantly since those games. Moreover, I did not play any Mafia games on this site for several years (from April 2010 to May 2012). Additionally, allow me to point to an example in my most recent finished game:

vote:belisarius

As mentioned before he's active lurking worse than NS and I don't like the fact that several of his posts of contribution have been rather anti-town.

I voted Belisarius because I thought he was anti-town. I also later voted NS in that game out of frustration similar to as I did in Open 411, because he's that kind of player. I vote players for being anti-town when I don't see any other good options. It's not an isolated instance. I admire your dedication but please, all of your evidence about how I should behave is taken from a time when I played quite differently than I do now (barring the Open 411 example which I think actually does accurately reflect my present playstyle).

Also, of course I vote players for being scummy, who doesn't?? But I consider anti-townness a good reason to vote, especially when it's day 1 and there is minimal information.

Moreover, I was L/A for the first week of this game due to final exams and personal life stuff, so my focus on this game hasn't been too great. I can admit that.

Also, you've mischaracterized my latter posts about NC. Notice that just before I started calling NC anti-town, he posted...

I'll probably lurk the amount I feel like lurking unless you ask me stuff, so good for you for asking.

Which is openly admitting to not having been busy or anything but simply not caring enough to post, which is plainly anti-town behavior. I stand by my earlier suspicion of the wagon against NC, but that doesn't mean that his more recent posts shouldn't be taken into account as well.
----------

Claim: One-Shot Doctor

So obviously it shouldn't be too big of a deal if I'm lynched, but I think the reasoning in this case is based on some flawed assumptions.

[NicCage]

Hey dys, what do you think of Toomai?

[hapahauli]

@ ac1983fan

First of all, my case isn't a meta case. The meta was there to dispose of Jake's counter-argument.

You are scum because you are voting Varsoon and suspicious of NC for reasons OTHER than finding them scummy. On top of this, all of your suspicions (and valid ones at that) against Dislexicon went *poof* the second you laid your eyes on Varsoon's "I'm town" quotes. You abandoned scumhunting in order to kill someone for being "anti-town" and that's a scum-claim.

As for your counter meta point...

Hapa hauli, did you ever care to look at any of the dates on my postings?
All of the examples you cite, barring Open 411, were from games that I played in Over four years ago. Or more. I was 16 or younger at any given moment while playing those games. I was also an idiot but that is not really relevant. My playstyle has changed significantly since those games. Moreover, I did not play any Mafia games on this site for several years (from April 2010 to May 2012). Additionally, allow me to point to an example in my most recent finished game:
In post 176, ac1983fan wrote:
vote:belisarius
As mentioned before he's active lurking worse than NS and I don't like the fact that several of his posts of contribution have been rather anti-town.

I voted Belisarius because I thought he was anti-town. I also later voted NS in that game out of frustration similar to as I did in Open 411, because he's that kind of player. I vote players for being anti-town when I don't see any other good options. It's not an isolated instance. I admire your dedication but please, all of your evidence about how I should behave is taken from a time when I played quite differently than I do now (barring the Open 411 example which I think actually does accurately reflect my present playstyle).

Firstly, yes those games are old, however they are still valid. They display a

mentality

that is far different from the one you are exhibiting here. Furthermore, I just used that game 'cause it was the first I happened to look at, and going through every single one of your town games and pointing out every single repeating pattern of this mentality is redundant and serves no purpose. I can surely pull up a newer game, but given that people will be lynching you, I see no point in doing so.

Secondly, that "recent game" quote vote on Bellasarius is of extremely different context in this game. Your vote against him in that game was an

early game pressure vote

. Secondly, there are

posts upon posts

of questioning and justifications beyond that vote that you post for voting him. I'll pull up two to illustrate the point:

So now we have confirmed town mason Apozzle.
I think Belisarius and Edosourist are both scum. Notice how Edo is always the third or fourth vote on a popular wagon, and never really moves or targets anyone else. Beli i find supiscious for the same reasons I did yesterday.
VOTE: Belisarius

Preparing reads on everyone atm but given the claims I will

unvote

for the moment and reVOTE: Belisarius since he was scummy earlier on in the day and has vote hopped from wagon to wagon w/o really ccontributing anything new (I know pot kettle)

--------------------------------------------------------

So this is a

big difference

from this game. Where instead of voting someone for being anti town and then continuing justifications to find him scum, you

drop all your scumhunting on Dyslexicon in order to vote Varsoon

.

This is a scumclaim.

You will get lynched today.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

we are not lynching a claimed PR, even in the off chance he is lying. I have seen this mistake way too many times. I will admit that in the QT I posted that I agree with the case, but the speed of this wagon is way too fast. especially with a PR claim.

fake or not, we will hope somebody out there can verify it tonight and if he is legit, than he is mafia's issue to deal with.

if anyone wants proof of my stance about lynching claimed PRs, I will be happy to link a game.

today we are lynching Nic or maybe Scott. I'd even be ok with a Toomai lynch.

that is all. Anyone hammers AC and he happens to flip town, you may as well just sign your death certificate. We are not lynching AC today.

-J

[hapahauli]

we are not lynching a claimed PR, even in the off chance he is lying. I have seen this mistake way too many times. I will admit that in the QT I posted that I agree with the case, but the speed of this wagon is way too fast. especially with a PR claim.

fake or not, we will hope somebody out there can verify it tonight and if he is legit, than he is mafia's issue to deal with.

if anyone wants proof of my stance about lynching claimed PRs, I will be happy to link a game.

today we are lynching Nic or maybe Scott. I'd even be ok with a Toomai lynch.

that is all. Anyone hammers AC and he happens to flip town, you may as well just sign your death certificate. We are not lynching AC today.

-J

What.

Explain.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

explain what? that we are not lynching a claimed PR? what is there to explain. WE ARE NOT LYNCHING A CLAIMED PR. end of story.

In the off chance he is actually telling the truth, we are not doing mafia's job for them

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24199 - cop lynched day 1
and this was my response, I didn't believe the claim but I said we should not lynch him. He got lynched anyway and flipped cop.

But if there is no counterclaim - surely my claim holds water then.

Did you really just say this?

That's an admission of guilt if I ever saw one. The odds that a cop is in this setup anyway is slim, not many normal games have them and when they do they usually have a modifier attached.

No self respecting cop would ever counter on day 1.

That being said, I have a no lynching of a claimed PRs on day 1. Surely we can give him a stay of execution for 1 day.

bottom line, day 1 we don't lynch claimed PRs EVER.

-J

[hapahauli]

So when do we lynch him? What is your plan for killing him in the event that he's lying?

[ac1983fan]

@ ac1983fan

Secondly, that "recent game" quote vote on Bellasarius is of extremely different context in this game. Your vote against him in that game was an

early game pressure vote

.

Wrong. Let me be clear:

I do not make pressure votes. I vote for people I want lynched

. Period. Regardless of if I am scum or town.
Moreover, I did not find Beli scummy until later on in that game; initially it was merely anti-town play that pinged him on my radar. Of course I vote for people who I believe are scum, but voting for people who I believe are scum and voting for anti-town players is not mutually exclusive.

(Oh, and I made an error when responding to your first post. You said your quotes from Open 480 were from Mini 480, and I just assumed they were from one of the games I played back in 07/08. But it was actually from a different game. My bad)

[Toomai]

Well I guess I'll go back to where I was then.

Vote: NicCage

That said, 1-Shot Doctor seems like a really weird claim to me. It's weak and unusual enough that it doesn't look like something that would be faked, but in the same way it's far easier to explain why he's not being killed (since if the claim is true the Mafia probably would like to keep him around for a while to keep suspicion high, as opposed to a full Doctor claim which would make everyone expect instant death).

[hapahauli]

@ ac1983fan

Secondly, that "recent game" quote vote on Bellasarius is of extremely different context in this game. Your vote against him in that game was an

early game pressure vote

.

Wrong. Let me be clear:

I do not make pressure votes. I vote for people I want lynched

. Period. Regardless of if I am scum or town.
Moreover, I did not find Beli scummy until later on in that game; initially it was merely anti-town play that pinged him on my radar. Of course I vote for people who I believe are scum, but voting for people who I believe are scum and voting for anti-town players is not mutually exclusive.

(Oh, and I made an error when responding to your first post. You said your quotes from Open 480 were from Mini 480, and I just assumed they were from one of the games I played back in 07/08. But it was actually from a different game. My bad)

It was an early-game pressure vote. The contexts were so absurdly different (voting a guy early in the day vs. voting Varsoon when his wagon was in full swing). Also, you still haven't justified why Varsoon is scum beyond him being anti-town.

More importantly, you're picking gripes with mini technicalities in my case rather than addressing the overarching theme. You were super suspicious of Dislexicon, asked a ton of questions to him, then all of a sudden you get so "frustrated" with Toomai that you vote him solely on the basis of being anti-town.

You DO NOT do that as town.

You are a

patient

player that carefully considers votes. Your actions are scummy already as it is, and to see you do something like this as town to me is inconceivable given your game history.

[hapahauli]

Well I guess I'll go back to where I was then.

Vote: NicCage

That said, 1-Shot Doctor seems like a really weird claim to me. It's weak and unusual enough that it doesn't look like something that would be faked, but in the same way it's far easier to explain why he's not being killed (since if the claim is true the Mafia probably would like to keep him around for a while to keep suspicion high, as opposed to a full Doctor claim which would make everyone expect instant death).

DAFUQ.

Do people on this site seriously think that a fucking 1-shot doctor claim means that you can't lynch someone?

It's the most convenient claim ever.

Fuck it's completely unverifiable, so what's the point in not lynching the guy today?

[Cheery Pie]

So this is a

big difference

from this game. Where instead of voting someone for being anti town and then continuing justifications to find him scum, you

drop all your scumhunting on Dyslexicon in order to vote Varsoon

.

I think he dropped his last piece of scumhunting since it was obviously wrong actually.

But anyway that wagon came too fast and Hapa's too overeager that I can't see it as actually being on scum.

Though did you see if he had this mentality of going for anti-town lynches in scum games, I only recall you linking town.

if anyone wants proof of my stance about lynching claimed PRs, I will be happy to link a game.

I don't recall seeing this stance in monopoly mafia. (even before Lurker slipped)
You had no troubles lynching a claimed cop in lylo there either.

[hapahauli]

He claimed 1-shot doctor and that gives him a free pass for all his behavior thus far?

That's bullcrap.

If he claims something like Cop, then yes I understand reservations. But if he makes an unverifiable and absurdly convenient claim, then we lynch the bejeezus out of him. We know scum are never going to shoot him. We know that there's no way for him to verify his claim. And we know he's the scummiest player in the thread.

Therefore he hangs.

[hapahauli]

So this is a

big difference

from this game. Where instead of voting someone for being anti town and then continuing justifications to find him scum, you

drop all your scumhunting on Dyslexicon in order to vote Varsoon

.

I think he dropped his last piece of scumhunting since it was obviously wrong actually.

And

WHERE

did ac1983fan conclude that? He's been suspicious of the guy all game, and he's

STILL

suspicious of him.

But anyway that wagon came too fast and Hapa's too overeager that I can't see it as actually being on scum.

How is this justification for not killing scum?

Though did you see if he had this mentality of going for anti-town lynches in scum games, I only recall you linking town.[/Quote]

I only looked through his town-games. He had a scum-game where he mentioned something about voting anti-town, but I didn't look at it very carefully since he replaced out on Day 1. Inconclusive game.

It's possible he has other scum-games (I only searched him for games where he said "anti-town").

[ac1983fan]

It was an early-game pressure vote.

No, it was not. I do not make pressure votes. Ever. Period.

More importantly, you're picking gripes with mini technicalities in my case rather than addressing the overarching theme. You were super suspicious of Dislexicon, asked a ton of questions to him, then all of a sudden you get so "frustrated" with Toomai that you vote him solely on the basis of being anti-town.

Varsoon. I voted Varsoon. And I asked Dyslexicon like two questions, and the second time I

misread his post

. I was not

super suspicious of him.

[hapahauli]

It was an early-game pressure vote.

No, it was not. I do not make pressure votes. Ever. Period.

The context of your play suggests otherwise. You can claim whatever you want, but that game does not back it up.

More importantly, you're picking gripes with mini technicalities in my case rather than addressing the overarching theme. You were super suspicious of Dislexicon, asked a ton of questions to him, then all of a sudden you get so "frustrated" with Toomai that you vote him solely on the basis of being anti-town.

Varsoon. I voted Varsoon. And I asked Dyslexicon like two questions, and the second time I

misread his post

. I was not

super suspicious of him.

[/quote]

Ok that's fair. However the multitude of other points I have still stand.

Mr. "Super-patient townie" went off the wall and voted a guy for being anti-town rather than scummy. You have 3-4 scum-reads (from your read dump), and you're voting someone for "overbearing anti-town behavior."

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

So when do we lynch him? What is your plan for killing him in the event that he's lying?

we lynch one of Nic/SB/Toomai, my preference being Nic

if he is lying, he gets lynched tomorrow. Hopefully we have a cop or something who can investigate him. If he is town, scum will have to think about killing him or hoping town lynches him tomorrow. It makes it much harder for scum if he is telling the truth and we can somehow clear him.

we can talk about all of this tomorrow though.

[hapahauli]

So when do we lynch him? What is your plan for killing him in the event that he's lying?

we lynch one of Nic/SB/Toomai, my preference being Nic

if he is lying, he gets lynched tomorrow. Hopefully we have a cop or something who can investigate him. If he is town, scum will have to think about killing him or hoping town lynches him tomorrow. It makes it much harder for scum if he is telling the truth and we can somehow clear him.

we can talk about all of this tomorrow though.

Why the fudge do you want a cop to check this guy, then

claim

in order to lynch someone who should die today?

Hell have the cop check Nic/SB/Toomai. That's 1000% better use of a check than a guy who should just die.

[hapahauli]

Hell we might not even have a cop.

And scum will

NEVER

kill a hypothetically "town-ac1983fan." That would take top honors for worst NK ever.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

ultimately your case on Ac is a meta case, albeit it a very good one, it's still a meta case. meta case alone isn't a reason to vote him. his cop claim gives him the benefit of the doubt that OMG you could just be wrong.

you don't think it's the least bit off that it takes over a week to get Nic to L-1 but AC gets to L-1 in less than 24 hours?

that is at the very least reasonable doubt that AC is legit. I'd actually be ok lynching any of the last 2/3 people who voted Ac, Toomai would be a good lynch but so would Nic

one of those 2 imo.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

but feel free to do what you want, but if AC gets lynched and flips town. I want your head on a platter, I don't give a shit what kind of town read dashie has on you.

[hapahauli]

ultimately your case on Ac is a meta case, albeit it a very good one, it's still a meta case. meta case alone isn't a reason to vote him. his cop claim gives him the benefit of the doubt that OMG you could just be wrong.

IT IS NOT A META CASE.

The entire purpose of the meta case was to debunk your "counter-argument" about AC's "anti-town" voting rationale.

The crux of my case is that he's voting Varsoon for all of the wrong reasons.

He claims to be a patient townie...
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4944958

...then flips out at Varsoon's anti-town behavior and spazz votes him in the most non-patient way possible:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4951003

But the

bottom line

is that he is voting for Varsoon

NOT

because he's mafia but because he's anti-town. This is mafia motive 101. This is insta-lynchable alone, and is further backed by his meta.

And fuck dude, have you read this guy's filter? He's done NO SCUMHUNTING. And the second he gets called out, he magically decides to put effort into the game, list off a bunch of reads, and make the worlds most convenient blue-claim.

The meta is just the CHERRY on top of scummy behavior.

And you don't want to lynch him today.

$#*%&#$(*%&@#(*$^@#*&^%$@&*#%^*@&^$(!*@&$(@*#&^%*@#^%*&@#$^%

you don't think it's the least bit off that it takes over a week to get Nic to L-1 but AC gets to L-1 in less than 24 hours?

Not at all. I am by far the most active presence in this thread. I could probably pick any player (town or scum) and have him moved to L-1 at my whim by a body of sheeping townies. I know I sound like a bit of an asshole saying this, but it's 100% truth.

that is at the very least reasonable doubt that AC is legit. I'd actually be ok lynching any of the last 2/3 people who voted Ac, Toomai would be a good lynch but so would Nic

Have you considered that you might be wrong about those players?

Are you not the least-bit disturbed that AC fan refuses to budge from Varsoon (who has virtually no change of getting lynched at htis point) and has been soft-pushing the NC lynch?

[hapahauli]

but feel free to do what you want, but if AC gets lynched and flips town. I want your head on a platter, I don't give a shit what kind of town read dashie has on you.

Oh hohoho, and if he flips scum, how should I deal with you?

You think he's scum, agree with my case, then refuse to vote him because he claims 1-shot doctor.

Instead, you want a cop to

claim

tomorrow to either save/kill him.

What is wrong with you? Seriously.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

if he flips scum we can deal with that tomorrow. I stand by my position that he should not be lynched today. It's bad town play to lynch a claimed PR. period end of story.