Open 493 - Jungle Republic. (Game Over - Werewolf Victory)

[Bacde]

I want G_M to get in here and start posting

[Syryana]

My head exploded when I saw the kill target and the flip.

I need to redo my reads, like right the fuck now.

I can buy the Egg thing.

But bulba would be my mafia lynch

Why do you want to get rid of the mafia over the wolf?

and wait... I just realized.

Did you guys lynch klick as a werewolf lynch or as an actual scum lynch?

Where are you going with this?

Here's a fucking thought, chaps. How about we explain why it's person X and person Y, instead of just stating it's them? Or else we are going nowhere today.

I gave reasons for both earlier in the game. The only thing that has changed is that thene was being coached in thread by Bo and Bo has now flipped scum.

I've been wrestling with this a bit in my head all morning. I'm more sure thene is scum than I am with bulb. However, as much as I didn't want to deal with "which scum group should we lynch?", I'm confident in thene being mafia rather than werewolf. And yes, werewolves can and should shoot mafia. And yes, they did so last night. However, with one mafia left, their odds of doing so are much less now. Also, we don't know if the Bo shot was an attempt at mafia or not because some people had him as town.

I think it's better to try to eliminate the NK now.

100% the bolded. If we get rid of the wolf now, game is a 6:1 nightless. The odds aren't getting any better than that.

Egg, you're sure Thene is mafia. Why? And if you're right(i.e. both Bulb and Thene are scum, and Thene is mafia) that would make Bulb the wolf by POE, yes? That doesn't sound right to me; I made a pretty good case yesterday as to why Bulb isn't the wolf if he's scum. Can you go reread what I said about Bulb yesterday and see if that factors into your thoughts on the remaining scum?

Did you guys lynch klick as a werewolf lynch or as an actual scum lynch?

I lynched him thinking he was the other werewolf. My goal was to take out one killing faction if at all possible. He was anti-Town so it didn't really matter to me as Town. I knew there was a chance of cross kill but figured the kill was more likely to land on Town. So I was hunting the other wolf. At this point my understanding is that there is one wolf and one mafia in the game. So, as long as we lynch anti-Town today we reduce the number of night kills by one tonight thus lowering the chance of another Town dying.

Why does it matter, TNE? For reads?

Why did you think Klick was the other wolf? Why didn't his anti-town team alignment matter, if you were wolf hunting? You do realize Mafia don't have a NK?

The case on Mac isn't very concrete (I read most of the case as RVS instead of actual scum tells), plus Mac has been pretty townie to me the whole game.

This indicates to me that Mac is not the last werewolf. Mac would want to keep Bo around to defend him.

WIFOM reasoning if I've ever seen it.

Bulb, let's be real, you're not getting your Egg lynch today. No one else has given him a large scumread.

Reason he's Mafia and not Wolf: he's avidly hunting for the wolf. Well, firstly, it's not unlike Bulb to try to abolish a NK before focusing on Mafia (ANY Nightless is better than something with a NK), because I know that Bulb is the type of player willing to do anything to make his wincon easier.

Maybe defending Egg? I have to keep reading.

This looks more like defending/coaching Bulb than defending Egg.

If Bulb votes Autti I'll switch back to Autti. Still standing by whichever wagon is bigger from Klick/Autti I'll be on.

Possible coaching Bulb? In either case, it likely clears Autti as last Mafia.

How did you catch onto the coaching of Bulb here but not in the prior paragraph? Why does this clear you of being Mafia?

This is what I have so far.

So...

bulb because he kept trying to keep me from lynching klick yesterday

I was like "we should lynch klick and here's the reason why"

and he was all like "thats not a good reason, why not lynch mac?"

and I'm like "no mac is town, we lynch klick"

and he goes "why not mac? or why not anyone else who isn't klick? Also DBK is a townread of mine"

And I think Princess is likely the last werewolf:

1) Because I think Princess is scum (residual from Autti)
2) She randomly said "Klick is the last werewolf" which is weird because I've been calling him as mafia for a while now (and I'm pretty sure a couple other people have too), so I'm not certain how she'd arrive at that conclusion by rereading unless she was trying to force a not-werewolf tell (which would make her a werewolf)
3) She seemed motivated to lynch Klick by me saying that she might get lynched as a compromise which is survivalistic which tends to be scummy

I like this.

Your case on Bulb is reasonable.

Your case on me is awful.

1. "Survivalistic is scummy" is a bogus tell people create to make someone look scummy. I don't know why you had Autti as scum. I don't care. I'm not Autti and I'm Town.

Also, I helped lynch a non Town as my very first vote. That buys me at least one opportunity to be wrong.

So stop tunneling on me because of the former occupant of this slot. Otherwise, I will have to show you all the examples of Town playing "survivalistic" and I'm really too lazy to show you that it is equally likely to come from either alignment. Finally, I wasn't playing survivalistic. I came in and voted my scum read. It was that simple.

Survivalism is not a scumtell. However, you are inordinately interested in "being cleared" and "proven not to be Mafia". Hell, the above paragraph states that your vote on Klick should give you some elbow room in terms of being lynched today(bolded).

2. There was nothing "random" about calling Klick the last werewolf. I saw a relational tell between Klick and FBN. FBN had 4 posts in a row [via ISO] beginning with 806 where he swears up and down that Klick is mafia. Sounded like a bus attempt.

A bus at L-1 (actually dead since people thought my L-1 vote was a hammer)? This is why you voted Klick? Lol?

I wanna hear more from GM too. List of reads, reasons, etc.

Mac, who are your current scumspects?

[Princess Proton]

I sincerely doubt that DBK was killed to purposely take out a mafia.

This may or may not be true. Let's say it is. Why would Autti/PP werewolf be a more likely reason than

most people had DBK as town.

???

Taking out the most popular Town read is a much more likely scenario.

Anyway, you are doing it wrong. If you want to call my slot a scummy werewolf slot, you need to connect Autti to FDN. When you can't do that, you need to recognize that you are tunneling on a scum read you had on Autti for whatever reason and let that go.

This spoiler tag is really just for you for the sake of further disproving your argument in case you need it.

Spoiler:

These are DBK's "reads:"

Egg scum also doesn't feel right to me.

Mac has been pretty townie to me the whole game.

These two posts side by side are interesting to me

I'm fairly confident Autti and Klick are both scum, and that I'll be on the wagon with more votes.

Any chance he said this because Autti and click were the leading wagons at the time? This was the post IMMEDIATELY before his.

VC 2.01

Autti (Goodmorning, DBK, Klick, Syryana) - L-2
Egg (Bulba)
Klick (Egg, Bacde)

As far as DBK's "scum read" on Autti, this is the first time DBK explained his Autti scum read:

Why Auttiscum, DBK?

Super fence sitting for a lot of the game. Just calling things suspicious. Anyone can call things suspicious. He seemed to be slipping under the radar for most of the game too (something scum likes to do). When I asked for reads he gave two town reads and two scum reads...I think. Even though he's called suspicious things out for multiple players all game.

Essentially, it was all for active lurking. Active lurking on a player that replaced out due to RL time constraints, it appears. In retrospect, this has the classic appearance of scum trying to take out an easy target. If anything, that's a better reason to find my slot TOWN than scum. Though I guess you would be accusing me of being a wolf.

Am I wrong in my new assumption that odd nights are mafia kill nights and even nights are werewolf nights? If not, we need to be focused on finding the last mafia. I think we can both agree that Autti/PP is certainly not the last mafia. That should buy me enough time to prove I'm not a ww either to anyone that still thinks this is a possibility.

[Princess Proton]

Why did you think Klick was the other wolf? Why didn't his anti-town team alignment matter, if you were wolf hunting? You do realize Mafia don't have a NK?

Really? I just assumed multiball and odd/even night kills. I actually didn't know mafia don't have a kill. I feel like if we took out the werewolves they would though, right?

[Bacde]

Am I wrong in my new assumption that odd nights are mafia kill nights and even nights are werewolf nights? If not, we need to be focused on finding the last mafia. I think we can both agree that Autti/PP is certainly not the last mafia. That should buy me enough time to prove I'm not a ww either to anyone that still thinks this is a possibility.

yes this is a wrong assumption

[goodmorning]

@Bacde: I can'ttttttt I have to packkkkkkkk

Vote: Princess

For residual Autti scumminess.

Like honestly I have no idea what's going on, two of my townreads have turned out to be not-Town, so I really need to do a reassessment before I can really be productive and I just don't have the time. But the Autti slot looks objectively bad regardless of all the flips, so I feel pretty confident about it.

[WIFOM] The thing that really makes me wonder about the Werewolf in particular is that Bacde is still alive. If they

were

aiming for Town, why hit DBK? Most people did have Townreads on him, yes, but

everyone

had a Townread on Bacde. Plus Bacde is more coherent and more noisy than DBK was. This is the big WIFOMy question I am entertaining at the moment.[/WIFOM]

PEDIT: Lol, scummy princess. You'll have to do better than "you can't prove it", and please stop trying to fake towntells, it's right in the ruleset that the wolf faction gets a kill and the mafia faction doesn't. You came in apparently knowing the setup, how would you not know the modifications?

[Bacde]

Taking out the most popular Town read is a much more likely scenario.

Exactly

but there were quite a few people who were heavily regarded as town

myself included

in fact, I'm quite surprised that I'm alive today

So why did the wolves choose DBK over any other across-the-board town?

[Bacde]

[WIFOM] The thing that really makes me wonder about the Werewolf in particular is that Bacde is still alive. If they were aiming for Town, why hit DBK? Most people did have Townreads on him, yes, but everyone had a Townread on Bacde. Plus Bacde is more coherent and more noisy than DBK was. This is the big WIFOMy question I am entertaining at the moment.[/WIFOM]

EXACTLY!

Me being alive today heavily points towards Princess scum, as I wasn't pushing the Autti lynch as hard as DBK was

[Bacde]

Was this your entire case? That Klick welcomed you to the game and was influenced by a slip (which from experience playing with him, he is apt to do)?

Face it, you have nothing

. For the same reason, Mac is not automatically town, because he brought up the slip thing. In fact, he's probably scum who is buddying up to you seeking town cred.

reaaallly

[Bacde]

Sorry for the delay. Had a podcast that I had to do.

Reads:

Town:
Bacde
Syryana
Icebox

Null/Town:
Goodmorning
Klick

Null:
Thenewearth
Does Bo Know

Null/Scum:
Mac

Scum:
Egg
Autti
Fuzzybutternut

Feel free to ask questions. I may even answer them.

bulbazak looks like a good scumhunter to me

he has two wolves in the scum pile

and he was able to argue with me pretty logically and well-groundedly

why is it that the mafia for some reason keep ending up on the townier side of his reads?

[Princess Proton]

Survivalism is not a scumtell.

You could have stopped there. I was accused of playing survivalist and that playing survivalist is scummy. I wasn't playing survivalist but even if I had been, playing survivalist ISN'T inherently scummy. That is important.

As to your second point, are you arguing that I shouldn't be concerned with clearing my slot of suspicion? This seems like a silly argument given that upon entry to the game I was greeted with this post.

Hey whats up princess

you should probably start contributing because the way things look everyone is going to keep disagreeing about our top scumreads and then you will be the compromise lynch of the day at this rate

I also think you should reread the voting situation. You claim I bussed my partner at L-1. Klick was at L-2. My vote is the one that put Klick at L-1. Klick self hammered. I would understand suspicions of me being Klick's partner if I hammered but not for putting him at L-1.

As far as my "wifom" reason for calling Mac "not a werewolf," why is that a problem for you but Bacde's wifom link between me and DBK's claimed reads seemingly not a problem for you at all? I have other reasons for thinking Mac is Town but that was a good passage to highlight just one of them.

I meant Bulb and not Egg in that defending argument. Sorry about that.

[Bacde]

Bacde's wifom link between me and DBK's claimed reads

what wifom link

the link is pretty clear and not as convoluted as wifom logic

[Princess Proton]

EXACTLY!

Me being alive today heavily points towards Princess scum, as I wasn't pushing the Autti lynch as hard as DBK was

So which argument are you going with? Are you going with the argument that the wolves are going after Town or that I'm a wolf and went after DBK for calling Autti scum? Because you have said both.

Also, have you ever been scum before? This is another argument you are fabricating to fit your read. If you have been scum before, and I'm assuming you have, you would know that someone loudly calling you scum doesn't make them a target specifically because people like you will say "obviously he was your target because he called you scum" It's silly. And you need to stop it.

[Bacde]

So which argument are you going with? Are you going with the argument that the wolves are going after Town or that I'm a wolf and went after DBK for calling Autti scum? Because you have said both.

I've said both because I believe both

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive

maybe you can help explain to me why you do?

[Bacde]

Also, have you ever been scum before? This is another argument you are fabricating to fit your read. If you have been scum before, and I'm assuming you have, you would know that someone loudly calling you scum doesn't make them a target specifically because people like you will say "obviously he was your target because he called you scum" It's silly. And you need to stop it.

no I've never been scum actually

I'm town in every game I play

its crazy

but if I WAS ever scum I'd totally kill people who were suspicious of me and then write it off as wifom logic

[Princess Proton]

he has two wolves in the scum pile

why is it that the mafia for some reason keep ending up on the townier side of his reads?

So I see one wolf in his pile. Unless you have information on Egg being the other wolf?

Also, you are in his Town pile. Are you saying you are mafia? That would make things easy.

[Bacde]

So I see one wolf in his pile. Unless you have information on Egg being the other wolf?

Also, you are in his Town pile. Are you saying you are mafia? That would make things easy.

I'm sure you realized what I was intending to say with that post

are you defending bulba now?

[Princess Proton]

Bacde. Stop it. Start reading the game. I'm not Autti. Autti wasn't scum. I'm not scum. Get with the program. Your refusal to recognize your tunnel is making you a liability.

[Bacde]

Bacde. Stop it. Start reading the game. I'm not Autti. Autti wasn't scum. I'm not scum. Get with the program. Your refusal to recognize your tunnel is making you a liability.

I don't think so

I tunneled since d1 on klick, called out FBN as scum, and never gave up that I was suspicious of DBK

I'm pretty sure I'm not a liability

who is the last wolf then? Convince me

I listen to arguments

[Syryana]

Survivalism is not a scumtell.

You could have stopped there. I was accused of playing survivalist and that playing survivalist is scummy. I wasn't playing survivalist but even if I had been, playing survivalist ISN'T inherently scummy. That is important.

Fact: You are playing survivalist right now. Fact: Survivalism is not a scumtell. Opinion: The way you're attempting to clear your slot is scummy.

I also think you should reread the voting situation. You claim I bussed my partner at L-1. Klick was at L-2. My vote is the one that put Klick at L-1. Klick self hammered. I would understand suspicions of me being Klick's partner if I hammered but not for putting him at L-1.

I believe you are referring to the point I was making about a bus at L-1? You misunderstand. I was not referring to your vote on Klick, I was referring to your "relational tell" between fuzzy and Klick. If Klick and fuzzy were wolf partners as you posit, then fuzzy was bussing his sole remaining partner when he was at L-1/dead. Frankly I think that's pretty fucking ludicrous.

As far as my "wifom" reason for calling Mac "not a werewolf," why is that a problem for you but Bacde's wifom link between me and DBK's claimed reads seemingly not a problem for you at all? I have other reasons for thinking Mac is Town but that was a good passage to highlight just one of them.

WIFOM link from Bacde? I didn't see this. Link?

Peditx4: Holy shit people

[Princess Proton]

who is the last wolf then? Convince me

I listen to arguments

I'm looking here

Klick is scum. Like, definite scum.
Syr is probably mafia with Klick.
Icebox is probably werewolf.

Egg could be mafia too.

There seems to be a high likelihood that FBN included his partner in his "scum" reads.

[Bacde]

So you agree w/ bulbazak and you think its egg?

[Princess Proton]

Frankly I think that's pretty fucking ludicrous.

You are entitled to your opinion. Even if it's wrong. You have to admit that wouldn't be the first time someone at L-1 fake bussed their partner in order to steer suspicion clear of them. So to call that "fucking ludicrous" is fucking ludicrous.

WIFOM link from Bacde? I didn't see this. Link?

There were two entire posts you missed, then. All of post 1073. And post 1074.

More recently post 1081 and post 1082.

[Princess Proton]

So you agree w/ bulbazak and you think its egg?

I'm looking at Egg and Syr.

[Bulbazak]

Why is Egg wolf and Princess mafia?

Egg is wolf for all the reasons I've previously mentioned. He has been tackling this game with wolf intent, and that extends to this post:

I've been wrestling with this a bit in my head all morning. I'm more sure thene is scum than I am with bulb. However, as much as I didn't want to deal with "which scum group should we lynch?", I'm confident in thene being mafia rather than werewolf. And yes, werewolves can and should shoot mafia. And yes, they did so last night. However, with one mafia left, their odds of doing so are much less now. Also, we don't know if the Bo shot was an attempt at mafia or not because some people had him as town. I think it's better to try to eliminate the NK now.

Seriously! Why is no one seeing this?!

Princess is mafia, because her vote yesterday was an obvious bus. She was under a considerable amount of suspicion yesterday, and bussing Klick was on opportunity to gain towncred, which she is going after with a vengeance:

I don't know why you had Autti as scum. I don't care. I'm not Autti and I'm Town. Also, I helped lynch a non Town as my very first vote. That buys me at least one opportunity to be wrong.

Because of this, it doesn't make sense for her to be the last wolf. The only way this would work was if she knew for sure that Klick was mafia, and the only way she'd know that was if she was his partner. Therefore, Princess is the last mafia.

Bulb, tell me why I would have shot bo if I was werewolf.

Bo was in the null/scummy area of everybody's reads, essentially putting him in the gray area. If he was scum, you got rid of one more member of the mafia faction, and if he was town, he had the potential to be extremely influential as the game progressed, as he was one of the stronger players. Essentially, it's a win-win.

I lynched him thinking he was the other werewolf. My goal was to take out one killing faction if at all possible. He was anti-Town so it didn't really matter to me as Town.

And you made that decision, analyzing all of the possible interactions of 40+ pages after only 17 minutes? I don't think so. Let's be honest, you were under extreme suspicion and you needed an out, so you bussed your buddy for towncred. Heck, you even congratulated him on his self-vote.

bulb because he kept trying to keep me from lynching klick yesterday

I was like "we should lynch klick and here's the reason why"

and he was all like "thats not a good reason, why not lynch mac?"

and I'm like "no mac is town, we lynch klick"

and he goes "why not mac? or why not anyone else who isn't klick? Also DBK is a townread of mine"

I don't lynch town reads. As for everything else, I was asked who my scumreads were. I was then asked why I thought Mac was mafia. Then you kept badgering me about that read, even though I said that I was not interested in a Mac lynch that day.

Now that Klick flipped mafia, Mac is no longer a suspect, so you 2 can go over and make out in a corner for all I care. Now are you done misrepping me, or do you want to continue to be butthurt about this?

why is it that the mafia for some reason keep ending up on the townier side of his reads?

Because I had a town read on them. Although to be honest, I wasn't quite sure how I felt about Bo, and I was starting to lean scum on him d2.

he has two wolves in the scum pile

why is it that the mafia for some reason keep ending up on the townier side of his reads?

So I see one wolf in his pile. Unless you have information on Egg being the other wolf?

Also, you are in his Town pile. Are you saying you are mafia? That would make things easy.

Seriously. Princess, stop. I want to lynch the wolf, which means giving you a free pass today. Don't scum up the thread so much that I change my mind.