Mini 1449 - Ordinary Town

[hapahauli]

You don't have to wait for this pony to actually be at my laptop to ask me questions, its not like they will disappear by the time I get off of work (which may cut into access this weekend since I need to go in for at least one half day).

Also we are almost for sure going to be still voting NC here. Outside of something massive happening with regards to ac he wont be getting our vote today, if he is scum he is pushed into a corner for what he does. If he is town scum are pushed into a corner.

Plus he is a good pick for NC partner, if you look at the two the both sorta acknowledge eachother but don't really take stances for the most part. Not sure where you are getting "that's not scum and scum" from there.

I really doubt they're on the same team. It's plausible, but mafia would have to be the least active, lurky mafia ever for them to be on the same team.

Honestly I wanted to just ask you general reads. Do you still stand the same on AC? Howabout Scott?

Also, what do you make of my points regarding the fact that the NC wagon had no effective resistance (besides myself)?

[Daemon385]

Idk I have noticed a slight on off resistance. Sure you have been the biggest resistance on it but there has been other slight resistances. All a bit not very influential most of the time.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

I really doubt they're on the same team. It's plausible, but mafia would have to be the least active, lurky mafia ever for them to be on the same team.

I happens. Scum are more apt to lurk, especially strategically.

Honestly I wanted to just ask you general reads. Do you still stand the same on AC? Howabout Scott?

acfan is not a horrible vote, but the doctor claim keeps me off of him. I have to be really really sure of it to power through a claim. Im good at picking up on some that don't make sense (there are already a few that they are VT or scum) but in normal games like this you don't touch something that has no playstyle counter to it without excellent reason. If he actually claimed doctor I would be more apt to lynch him, but im actually trying to recall a non-open where scum claimed a X-Shot role and (apart from me doing it somewhat recently) I cant come up with one. The X-Shot/X-Night etc roles are more likely scum with that role or town.

SB is a lynch I am okay with, it has been a long time since I played with him but he is somewhat meta-able. Not like the few that you can tell nearly instantly, but he is meta-able more often than not.

Also, what do you make of my points regarding the fact that the NC wagon had no effective resistance (besides myself)?

I can probably find examples in my own games again, but sometimes the best way to get a counterwagon is to just direct attention somewhere else instead of trying to destroy the logic behind the wagon. If you could (im in middle of making food) get a list of everypony who voted NC (and when they voted/unvoted) I would like to see that though. Its just as easy to argue without all the cards shown that he is scum which is why the wagon never has gotten over that hump though, just passive defense.

[Daemon385]

All 3 posts have been brought to you by BadCop

Vote: ac1983fan

because I'm not scum w/ ac and I don't want to trip myself up on a technicality and start assuming that I am scum w/ ac

-BadCop

Does this mean goodcop might still be scum with him?

VOTE: goodcopbadcop because cops cause me problems

Clearly means you'd investigate guilty.

scum found.

VOTE: NicCage

post_id=4928384 time=1367671342 user_id=10128]So let's start by lynching Cage.

VOTE: NicCage

VOTE: NicCage

I'm not convinced about ac1983 fan

his vote was definitely trying to hide in the chaos, rather than contribute to creating order and information

hes scum basically

Or maybe that was just, y'know, a random vote during the RVS?
But thank you for providing the overreaction necessary to get us out of RVS.
UNVOTE:

4 posts, 4 seperate votes on different people?

this is bullshit, all 3 of you are actively trying to reduce town's information thus the scumteam is HP, Toomai, and ac1983fan

Ridiculously terrible reasoning. Random is random; not joining wagons in the first 5 posts is beyond a null tell.

Vote: GoodCopBadCop

Voting someone because of ridiculously terrible reasoning during the RVS/ending of the RVS? it's like you've never played before

My turn to post!

Vote NC

Why me and not Toomai?

This is a really bad post to start as it doesn't actually attack any of the logic that was presented as to why its scummy, but instead tries to deflect part of what he is being called for to another as well without really giving thoughts on hp or Toom.

Yep

unvote

VOTE: zefiend

This is a pretty ugly sheep. Apart from zef being one of my stronger town read at this point, it seems like more of a runaway vote following a vocal player who was calling him scum. I would love to actually see NC try and give reason for the vote before GCBC gives one (even though they probably both are missing reasons - zef is really town which anypony should see at this point).

I probably wont always remember to sign posts (chances are I wont sign anything) but if somepony cant tell us apart... well im not sure what else to say.

GCBC should headclaim too. Its amazingly anti-town to keep that hidden.

Can anyone briefly explain what "headclaim" means and why or why not it may be ethical to ask of someone to do? This is my first game on mafiascum, and I have never heard the term anywhere else.

Sometimes that involves forcing things. Usually everything on Day 1 is forced to some extent, until it reaches the point where you can leverage *actual* suspicion on someone.

I am all for prying information from someone, but only necessarily if they do something genuinely suspicious or questionable. It seems as though you are admitting to "forcing things", albeit for the sake of generating information... so, along with the fact that you are generally being proactive in regards to activity, I will

Unvote: hapahauli

for now.

... but that vote seemed a lot to me like some

early-game RVS antics

rather than a serious vote. ...

Can I be the one to officially say it??

We are out of the RVS stage of the game, and we have been for a while.

Chalking up statements and votes to "jokes" and "antics" just keeps dragging on the notion that we are not playing seriously yet, and it provides an outlet to fall back on for bad play.

Just this mean I actually have logic with my vote on NicCage?

Well is it after his sheeping of GCBC and other lack of contest so far.

If you are talking about your first post of the game, 1) I detected sarcasm, so I believe that it was a "true" RVS-vote 2) If it wasn't sarcasm, then it certainly held no logic. Regardless, I am comfortable moving my vote there as well.

Vote: NicCage

Cheery Pie and hapahauli are both pretty town. I'm not seeing poor logic on either side of their discussion.

How can I get round to any details of the points raised when I'm still trying to wrap my head around what's actually going on?

Seems pretty simple to me: hapahauli looked for the people that weren't posting, saw the two people with 1 post, and found them to be scummy. You brought up someone who has no posts and hapahauli went either "hmm, didn't think of that, but you can't really do much to no-posters early Day 1" or "I noticed, but you can't really do much to no-posters early Day 1". That's how I see it anyway.

I'm gonna concur with the NicCage suspicion since, while Varsoon and Daemon385 made one bad post each that could be construed as RVS (if you have a really open mind), NicCage has made about three bad posts with about the same amount of content.

Vote: NicCage

(that's 5/7)

post_id=4936326 time=1367913245 user_id=10128]

@ HP

Wall-o-texts are kinda my thing =/

Anyway what do you "like" about the post - do you agree with my logic? Or do you just think it's a "townie" post?

Also, I still want an answer to this:

post_id=4932314 time=1367795256 user_id=10128]

Well, first, he took Cop's second RVS vote too seriously (unless Cop was also serious, which I doubt).

Secondly, Cop wagon was evidently a wagon I didn't like and Toomai was on it. Thirdly, his overall play strikes me as overly cautious. I can't say he's the best good lynch for today, but he's worth going after tomorrow. And also today.

Those are reasonable points, but why didn't you bring them up before? You say he's worth pressuring today, yet idly stating he's suspicious twice, then not stating your rationale until I prod you about it isn't a very effective way of "going after" someone.

The motivation for that post was coming from the right place.

To answer that, I wanted to mess with him a bit. Also, my vote was on NicCage and reasons without a vote is even worse than a vote without reasons.

Understand where you're coming from, Hapa.

You just seem way too eager to play town.

I don't like this post.

Please note that it is NOT a fallacy to claim somebody is trying to "appear" protown

Which is what he was going for (or at least what I think it is)

Also why am I not voting you yet? You've earned yourself a seat above Cage. This is yours until NicCage comes back and claims it from you.

VOTE: Toomai

I'm sorry I haven't been contributing more. Finals are proving hell. With such vocal townish play from Hapa there's gonna be mostly baaaaa anyways.
I strongly agree with Zef's post #168 where he agrees with some other players. Sheepasheep.
VOTE: NC

NicCage imo looks more and more suspicious as the days go by for me. It does seem like he is hiding. Since vote count 1.3 where he had 4 votes against him he has only done 2 not very influential post.

Vote:NicCage

I mean honestly GC, have you looked at your partner's posting at all? Whatever IIoA means, it must apply to BC as well.

I don't know if either of can actually be described as having information.

Vasroon is definitely appealing to emotions though.

I am town.

UNVOTE: , VOTE: Varsoon

post_id=4951589 time=1368446843 user_id=10128]CHOO CHOO

VOTE: NicCage

Why does it matter if there's a few days left?

Eh I guess you're right. We do kind of need enough time for him to claim.

Vote: NicCage

[L-1]

unvote for a second

ok, I thought i had seen a weird toom/SB connection but after that response and going back and looking in detail, I mis-read.

Vote: Nic

back to L-1

I love you Dyslexicon. Thank you for making me look at this guy again.

ac1983fan

is scum. No doubt about it.

I love you too, my dove. *blush*

I totally agree ac19 looks like scum, especially in light of his meta. He has seemed dodgy to me the whole game. His self proclaimed "conservativeness" does not add up to his play, and him stating being wary of me, but do nothing but a totally fail-jump on one of my posts. This is good enough for a vote from me, and then we don't have to worry about NC being lynched (although he might not be town either).

VOTE: ac1983fan

Wow that is some solid data. Very well done on your dig Hapa. I'd like to hear from him as well to see what he has to explain, but with that kind of proof I am willing to sway my vote that way. How much longer do we have till days end?
You have the stage acfan I suggest you give your case before it is to late.

VOTE:ac1983fan

Well I guess I'll go back to where I was then.

Vote: NicCage

That said, 1-Shot Doctor seems like a really weird claim to me. It's weak and unusual enough that it doesn't look like something that would be faked, but in the same way it's far easier to explain why he's not being killed (since if the claim is true the Mafia probably would like to keep him around for a while to keep suspicion high, as opposed to a full Doctor claim which would make everyone expect instant death).

post_id=4958857 time=1368718115 user_id=10128]Well I'm all for NC or Toomai now so if we're not lynching Toomai,

VOTE: NC

@acfan

- Use your ability tonight.
---

VOTE: Cage
This is a good lynch. Also, we need lynch RIGT NOW. The deadline is in a few hours.

All this "don't lynch the PR" stuff

does not apply here.

It applies to normal doctor/cop claims, but not this one. In the case of a 1-shot claim, we lynch the guy if we think he's scum. End of story.

What makes a 1-shot claim all that different from a full claim? It's still a PR claim, and since we don't actually know what the setup is in this game, limited shot powers may actually be all we have.

You voting Varsoon implies that you think he's the

best

candidate availible. If he's not the best candidate in your mind, who is? Place your vote on that person.

Out of the people who have wagons, yes Varsoon is the best option. (for information that may be confusing you, some responses/conversations have changed which hydra head is speaking, I think Pie is less clear on Varsoon than I am)

I don't like this attitude. I feel like you've been talking around things and doing everything in your power not to make a vote-committment. Your plan here is essentially to wait and see, and give the town your "stamp of approval" by hammering someone. This is unacceptable when we have 24 hours left in the day. We need to be discussing reads, not doing hwat you are proposing.

I didn't like your attidtude about how acfan is scumscumscumscum.

There was still hope that other people would see the sense in Varsoon, but I guess there isn't now that Scott has moved off. Yes I haven't argued that much about it, but then I'd be hypocritical of my hatred towards people trying to lead the town around.

The problem is, I can't find any compelling reason for why the policy applies in the case of this current claim (1-shot doctor).
1) It won't be possible to verify his claim later, and outing a cop to do so is not a good long-term play.
2) The "suboptimal" decisions that scum could make here (NK'ing AC for example) are very unrealistic. If scum have a roleblocker, they can nullify his role without killing him. Secondly, I don't think it's realistic at all for scum to NK ACfan (if he's town) because he would be an almost sure-fire lynch for D2.

If he is the only protective role, then unless he is scum sacrificing a night, then it is possible to verify without resorting to a cop. (it would probably require massclaim though)
If he is a doctor, he has a protect in action tonight, scum may therefore avoid the optimal kill killing it would be protected. We do not know if they have a roleblocker or not. (and if who he protects dies, then we gain that additional information come his flip should he be telling the truth)

There seems to be support for this wagon lingering but nobody wants to take that first step.

unvote, vote: toomai

Somebody actually did this, we saw how quickly the acfan wagon grew, so why from the others with that suspicion is the reason for not voting not enough time?

I believe this vote to actually be town motivated

Toomai is actually probably town

-J

What changed in the space between you calling him very scummy and ending the same post with this?

Anyway votecounts and deadline and needing time for him to claim as well tell me I need to vote my vote

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NicCage

@Hapa - The fact that your case is largely meta (which according to acfan is around 4 years old).
- That the waggon grew really fast (not that convinced by this though).

Toomai prob won't get lynched today.
VOTE: NC

UNVOTE:

[Daemon385]

There you are Jack from Rainbowdash there is everyone vote to unvote on and off NicCage. If it just has unvote or they just look like they voted it was them doing so off or on to NicCage. Cherry seems to be the very first person to ever have voted him up and then it has gone kinda up and down through out the game.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Jack...

[Daemon385]

My bad xD Jake lol

[NicCage]

Why me and not Toomai?

Jake, does this inform your read on me?

Yep

unvote

VOTE: zefiend

Why, as scum, would I do this? How does scum stand to benefit from this and why is it scummy?

[NicCage]

Well, the first one was to see what distinction hp was making between Toomai and I, so that one doesn't have anything to do with me thinking Toomai was scum.

After Toomai's post voting me the first time I was suspicious of him. Like I've said, I think he's scum.

The second was to see why dys called out Toomai in 117 and then said nothing about it from then on. I was trying to see if there was a connection between the two of them.

Two quick question for you Nic:

1.Why do you feel/think Toomai is scum?
2.Do you feel like you found any connection between the two at all?

1. Well there's this 212. And he's been voting opportunistically, it looks like he just wants whatever lynch he can get to go through. Although thinking about some things I feel a change in my read coming.

2. No I don't. His answer seemed in line with what happened. I think it bears a little more explaining though.
Dys, Could you explain why Toomai saying he screwed up informs your read of him?

[Dyslexicon]

Dys, Could you explain why Toomai saying he screwed up informs your read of him?

It was this post.
Didn't seem like a scum defense. I think scum would be more stressed and argue point by point, trying find flaws in the logic, and generally be more defensive. It's not like he's on my town list, but I suspect you an ac19 more.

[hp [leaves]]

The fact that you of all people posted that post made me laugh.

why ;-;

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Cause you gave intent to hammer without saying much of anything. That's sketchy

[qwints]

Vote Count 1.12

ac1983fan: Dyslexicon, Daemon385, Varsoon, NicCage, Hapahauli (5)
NicCage: Toomai, hp[leaves], Cheery Pie, GoodCopBadCop (4)
Toomai: Scott Brosius, (1)
Varsoon: ac1983fan (1)

Not voting -- Jake from Rainbowdash, Dessx (2)

With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch

Day One ends in (expired on 2013-05-20 12:00:00)

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

vote: Nic

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

[hp [leaves]]

Cause you gave intent to hammer without saying much of anything. That's sketchy

Yeah I know. I act too quick sometimes.

[NicCage]

Jake or dashie could you answer my questions please?

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

Jake or dashie could you answer my questions please?

You mean the "why would I do this [sheep]" as scum? When the reason for your sheep was "zef is sheeping"?

I really don't see a question from you really. I already explained why that post, and other things, were a scumtell.

[Daemon385]

It is honestly better to just ask the question instead of asking to ask the question. Your just being redundant doing that. Seriously though please ask any questions you have.

[Daemon385]

Wait never mind...reading two different things got mixed up my bad.

[Toomai]

@Mod: Something funny's up with the numbers in that vote count.

Fixed

Cause you gave intent to hammer without saying much of anything. That's sketchy

Um where was this? I don't see it.

[Jake from Rainbowdash]

@Mod: Something funny's up with the numbers in that vote count.

Cause you gave intent to hammer without saying much of anything. That's sketchy

Um where was this? I don't see it.

Post 393 iirc, he said "claim, claim til you die" which pretty much was an intent to hammer.

[hapahauli]

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

...

Although AC is making me nervous being quiet again.

Are you suuuuuure you guys don't want to lynch ACfan?

[ac1983fan]

UNVOTE:
Varsoon's behavior has been significantly less anti-town since I cast my vote for him, although I still really did NOT like that set of posts he made before I voted for him.
Unfortunately it seems the only counterwagon to my own is NicCage's, who I'm not very interested in lynching.
Actually, relooking over the players again, Scott Brosius looks like a much more solid scumread than previously. He's flown under the radar for a lot of the game and the only thing he's done as the deadline come closer is make an off-wagon vote without a particularly well reasoned argument in favor of that. I noticed some willingness to lynch Brosius earlier but it seems most of the people who were willing to are either in favor of myself or NC as today's lynch. Regardless, I guess VOTE: Scott Brosius, even though it's probably in vain.

[hapahauli]

@ ac1983fan

Why don't you like the NC lynch? You were remarkably open to it in your previous posts:

I'm still wary of Dyslexicon, and NicCage's latest post is openly admitted anti-town play, so I guess I can see why there is a wagon on him again.

Additionally, the two biggest wagons at the moment are against Varsoon and NicCage, both of whom I've seen heavy anti-town behavior from.

In your latest opinion on NicCage...

NicCage = The early suspicion of NicCage made me uncomfrotable, and I still don't see any scummy behavior out of him, just a fair amount of anti-town behavior. Null, ever so slightly leaning town.

... you mention you slightly lean town on him. Why is this the case? You've never explained why.

Furthermore, I've seen you call him anti-town left and right. This game, you've shown plenty of willingness to vote Varsoon for the sole reason of being "anti-town", and therefore I can't understand your lack of willingness to vote Nic at all. It doesn't make sense with the playstyle/voting mindset you've been so adamant about this past week.

[GoodCopBadCop]

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for him not to vote NC.

- GC