Micro 161: No-Newbie Newbie (over)

[N]

Vote Count 2.01

RedCoyote

( 0 )

²

( 0 )

A_Stone

( 1 ) ²

Mac

( 0 )

Mr E Roll

( 0 )

goodmorning

( 0 )

EspeciallyTheLies

( 0 )

Not voting:

RedCoyote , A_Stone , Mac , Mr E Roll , goodmorning , EspeciallyTheLies

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2013-06-01 04:09:45)

[fferyllt]

Don't lie 2, I saw him,

I am not lying and I'm extremely offended you would say that I am. his last post at the time was before the L-1 vote was cast.

- f

[²]

Don't lie 2, I saw him,

I am not lying and I'm extremely offended you would say that I am. his last post at the time was before the L-1 vote was cast.

- f

grr

- f

[RedCoyote]

Who put forth the idea of Rach and ² being partners?

AS, why are you talking to a dead person? The reads to me like you were expecting that he couldn't make a second "bah" post, but he clearly just did... and you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. This greatly concerns me. What was your motivation for trying to ascertain information from a dead tne?

[²]

2nd bah but don't mind this N... Pwease?

I was online then come back only to see that I died :V

I was having my medical (Again)

Lol you're so out of line with this post. It directly address matters related to your lynch - how can you even think it's a "bah" post? Feel free to discuss this with me post-game.

- b

[Mr E Roll]

I wish I thought to check before nightfall. After the card flip I checked TNE's profile. He was not online to return the vote. He was not online after the L-1 vote.

- f

My question is actually referring to TNE’s last(living) post.

I still feel for a MER lynch.

My second would have been SOAT/Mac

At this point in the day it was already clear that the lynch was probably going to be between A_Stone and TNE.

And fair warning to Stone you have the largest wagon so you are probably going to be the compromise vote unless something happens. Hint. Hint.

So tne vs AS?

yep basically looks like that RC

VOTE: TNE

Gives us two options for a compromise at the minute. I *think* i'd like TNE over stone personally.

To me it’s baffling that TNE didn’t vote A_Stone as town, it only made sense as scum partners. GM seemed to know that my theory was going to be wrong. I want to know how GM knew that before the flip or hear her counter theory.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Given the flip and NK, and GM's behavior leading up to the lynch, I'm going to VOTE: Good Morning.

I am currently rather ill, but have been re-reading. I just haven't had the energy to put my thoughts together. I'll tell you this for now, GM's entire play has been very scummy and I don't know why it didn't click for me before. There was a lot of bait and switch going on, and not much real scum hunting. More tomorrow, but first - sleep.

[A_Stone]

Well sorry 2, but he *was* online afterwards. I meant no offence by the statement and will phrase it in a more polite way next time.

@RC I didn't mean for the question to be answered, it was more of a thing I would have talked about post game, I was quite surprised when he answered.

[²]

Rach

@RC are you thinking of this post?

- f

[²]

There goes all respect I ever had for you, Rach. Good job insinuating that people being active doesn't have a "real life" outside of mafia games. You probably couldn't have been more insulting even if you tried.

its so fucking obvious you two are scum together I seriously just fucking lost all interest in this game.

Just noticed that quote failed for some reason.

Here it is.

- f

[Mac]

COMPROMISE

explain please.

Was under the impression we had minutes left, not hours. My bad.

You disappeared right after this post so I don’t know would you have compromised and switched to A_Stone? And how did you figure out we had hours not just minutes left?

He didn't return the vote. meaning he viewed you as more important than himself.

OH PLEASE

THIS IS SOME MAJOR BULLSHIT HERE

I was working on the assumption that TNE was at least making a minimal effort to play to his win-con, clearly he was not. But can you give me any other sane reason that he wouldn’t have voted for A_Stone with under 24 hours to deadline?

TNE was on 4 at this point I think and Stone on 3. I was on TNE and posting from my phone because I thought 10pm was the deadline time, miscalculating it completely without checking the last VC.

[Mac]

2, can you please summarize your case on Stone please.

I'm still concerned by GM, also.

[Mr E Roll]

VOTE: Good Morning

She has been making an effort to appear to do things but I don’t think she is even believing her own points since she has been undermining them.

Honestly it's pretty crap, which is why I wanted to wait a bit more.

I'm aware that this is a playstyle thing for some, but shifting the blame is a common Scum tactic.

I also find it suspicious that she avoided responsibility for the hammer but was around right before deadline to make sure that the TNE mislynch went through.

[²]

Mac, I have gathered up the bulk of the day 1 interactions that led to our day 1 scum read of A_Stone.

Spoiler: huge quote wall ahead

2 saw the use of soat in quote format, along with evidence of who it was. With this evidence,

Firstly, I was responding to RedCayot, not SoaT. Secondly, even if I was responding to SoaT, I may not have realized what the abbreviation meant because I was responding to the person through the quote of another person (i.e., I didn't make that abbreviation myself).

Finally, and most importantly, what would the scum motivation for acting as if I don't understand that abbreviation if I actually did be?

I think you're pretending to think that you've found something to launch some sort of attack on us. I think your process went something like this: you read all of our posts in ISO, and decided to attack anything you could find. You noticed this and thought "hey, this could be a great thing to attack" without thinking about whether it actually made any sense from a scum perspective. Why did you do that? It's a subtle scum-slip, but people make it all the time. As scum, they forget the fact that your motivation shouldn't be winning arguments, launching attacks or finding mistakes, but look at posts that can only be motivated by a scum perspective. You fall victim of a) launching an attack that completely ignores what potentially would be scum motivated and what wouldn't, b) aims at finding mistakes (such as me not realizing what SoaT was an abbreviation of - despite it being obvious that there couldn't be any scum motivation for pretending to have missed this), and possible c) aimed at winning arguments (although this one is more debatable).

Either way, I feel these are sufficient reasons to establish quite a strong scum read on you, so I'm going to vote you unless that would put you on L-1 (in which case I'll postpone voting you until I've talked to ff). Will read the remainder of the posts subsequent to the one I'm quoting now first, though.

Seems off to me. It was obviously a player, why did the question need to be asked?

It wasn't obvious to me, or I wouldn't have asked it. Again: what's the scum motivation behind pretending not to know what it meant? Why would scum-me be less likely to know what it meant than town-me? These are two questions that must be answered in order to justify you thinking that it "seems off". If you don't answer these questions, I'm inclined to think that the "seems off" part is just putting seeds out there and hoping that people jumps on this.

- b

his RVS vote seems... overreasoned I guess would be the word?

He made a space pun. That's your definition of over-reasoning? Interesting.

I'll be coming back to this later.

- f

And yet you *never* did, I thought it obvious after #23 that it was a joke, any reason why you didn't see it that way?

And this is what I wanted to see before I came back to it - I wanted more posts from you to firm up my initial impression that you were propping up a random vote by characterizing our posts about RVS as "arguments" we were trying to win rather than reasons why we personally don't do RVS.

And what I see is more of the same. It is scummy to play as a hydra while keeping the two individuals' posts recognizable. It is scummy to not recognize an abbreviation, or to not ask about it the first time it appears in thread.

Buldermar and I don't consult each other on every single post. We are playing this game as though we're masons who share a single vote. When we are speaking for each other or speaking about our consensus about game events or players, we'll make that clear. When we are not speaking for each other, we'll try to make that clear as well.

We are in agreement about our vote.

-f

It looked off to me? I thought it was unnecessary, it was obviously a player and I didn't see why it needed to be asked.

I didn't say it was necessarily scummy, I just saw no reason to ask it.

You were clearly insinuating that this would be a scum-tell. Saying "it looked off" does not satisfy my question about what the scum motivation would be. For it to be a scum-tell, it has to be motivated by alignment. If it looks equally off when it comes from town and scum, what is then the purpose of pointing it out? I don't buy this explanation. You tried to sell it as a scum-tell, and now you're retracting it and asserting that you merely thought it looked off and wasn't worried about it coming from town or scum.

- b

I suppose a more apt word for what I meant by off was *interesting*

I thought that after seeing this post, and other posts mentioning soat, you would have garnered the meaning of soat.

You tried to pass it off as a scum-tell: this is backpedaling.

- b

UNVOTE:

I think I'll unvote now that RVS is over.

Translation: I think I'll act as if my vote was always just a random vote - despite the fact that I was tunneling like crazy on ² - because I got called out on something I can't refute.

- b

Wait a second, I think I've found something

In this post by RedCoyote

This is what A_Stone now claims is merely "interesting" and not something he ever thought was a "scum-tell". I think it's clearly between the lines - especially given that this is only the last part of a longer case on us - that he tries to pass this off as a scum-tell.

- b

You're overthinking this way too much, my vote on you *was* random.

Yes, the initial vote. Then you started tunneling. Then I asked you if it was random, which you didn't answer. Then, when you ran into some trouble, you unvoted me, asserting that the vote had always been random.

- b

1. I unvoted when I thought it was the general consensus that RVS was over, there was no point in holding my RVS vote after that point.

This kind of phrasing is scummy. You didn't unvote when you

wanted

the RVS to be over or when you had made up your mind, or when someone better came along to vote, or when you thought your vote was no longer of use. You

waited

and unvoted when doing so would be in accordance with the general consensus. That's exactly what scum does: stays in accordance with consensus without worrying about progressing the game or making reads.

- b

I'm still checking out who I'd like to vote right now, I'm thinking about 2 but I'd like to see a bit more, it's pretty much just gut and a bad feeling right now. I'd just like to step back and look at everyone a bit more before I make my decision.

This is fencesitting.

- b

3. It's just something I do, I like to see activity from everyone.

You started doing this immediately after I called you out for tunneling on me and making a shit case on why I'd be scum.

- b

- f

[²]

We are also concerned about GM.

I would add 395 to Mr E Roll's and ETL's reasons.

- f

[Mac]

Hmmm.

Alot of tunneling going on from buldermar. Do you agree with all of the points he is making f?

288 for example.

I've seen town unvote in RVS when it's over. I've seen town take a look at everyone before voting. I've done it myself.

I'll re-read Stone's ISO tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

Hmmm.

Alot of tunneling going on from buldermar. Do you agree with all of the points he is making f?

288 for example.

I've seen town unvote in RVS when it's over. I've seen town take a look at everyone before voting. I've done it myself.

I'll re-read Stone's ISO tomorrow.

In the unvote, it wasn't so much the fact of the unvote it was the awkward phrasing of the reason. And that was what initially caught my attention as well.

The tunneling question is a good one, though. I have a favorable bias toward players who are direct and even abrasive in their reactions, and tend to tunnel people who don't come off as being direct. If it's a player's personal style I eventually figure it out.

[²]

Hmmm.

Alot of tunneling going on from buldermar. Do you agree with all of the points he is making f?

288 for example.

I've seen town unvote in RVS when it's over. I've seen town take a look at everyone before voting. I've done it myself.

I'll re-read Stone's ISO tomorrow.

In the unvote, it wasn't so much the fact of the unvote it was the awkward phrasing of the reason. And that was what initially caught my attention as well.

The tunneling question is a good one, though. I have a favorable bias toward players who are direct and even abrasive in their reactions, and tend to tunnel people who don't come off as being direct. If it's a player's personal style I eventually figure it out.

grr

-f

[RedCoyote]

Yes, ², thanks.

I am a bit concerned with AS still. I don't really care for that answer. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I think AS was doing like how attorneys do when a judge sustains an objection? Then the judge tells the jury not to remember what was just said, but you can't really "unremember".

That being said, I am game for a goodmorning lynch at this point.

[A_Stone]

Has GM siteflaked...

[Mac]

She's V/LA, but doesn't seem to have informed the mod.

[A_Stone]

Ah.

[N]

Prodded EspeciallyTheLies

, but I'll give goodmorning a bit longer before I prod her.

[goodmorning]

He didn't return the vote. meaning he viewed you as more important than himself.

OH PLEASE

THIS IS SOME MAJOR BULLSHIT HERE

I was working on the assumption that TNE was at least making a minimal effort to play to his win-con, clearly he was not. But can you give me any other sane reason that he wouldn’t have voted for A_Stone with under 24 hours to deadline?

See, the problem here is you expecting tne to play it sane.
Besides not being around, what reason would the doctor have for failing to vote the other main wagon? Unreason.

To me it’s baffling that TNE didn’t vote A_Stone as town, it only made sense as scum partners. GM seemed to know that my theory was going to be wrong. I want to know how GM knew that before the flip or hear her counter theory.

Seemed to know that what theory was going to be wrong? Your theory of a gm-tne scumteam? [sarcasm]Gee, I wonder.[/sarcasm]

I also find it suspicious that she avoided responsibility for the hammer but was around right before deadline to make sure that the TNE mislynch went through.

This is moronic.
1. I absolutely had willingness to vote tne and do not avoid responsibility for either that willingness or the hammer which I would have made. If you feel there was avoidance, please point it out.
2. I was around on and off before deadline. I was interested in a lynch going through for all the reasons that have been hashed out as to why no-lynching is not usually optimal. I was interested in making sure tne went through over Stone because I have a reasonably strong townread on Stone.

I would add 395 to Mr E Roll's and ETL's reasons.

- f

What reason would scum have to point out a maybe-softclaim when they could just kill it?

She's V/LA, but doesn't seem to have informed the mod.

Yeah, forgot to send that PM. Whoops.

Is this normal play for ETL?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm sorry all.. I got sick unexpectedly and have just been in bed and checking in from my phone every now and then. I've been horrible this game, I know that and I apologize. I am feeling a bit better today and do plan on putting my case on gm together for you sometime this afternoon.

P-edit: no, its not normal for me. With school ending, teeth business, deadlines at work, and now illness, its just been one thing after another. :/