Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[milkshake]

Gah, I was wrong about Belisarius. I'm pretty sure I was. Look at him, he's town. I don't know how I thought he was scum.

UNVOTE: Belisarius

GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral are trying desperately to push my wagon. A town wagon. But do they know it is a town wagon? That is the question.

[Ghostlin]

Gah, I was wrong about Belisarius. I'm pretty sure I was. Look at him, he's town. I don't know how I thought he was scum.

UNVOTE: Belisarius

GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral are trying desperately to push my wagon. A town wagon. But do they know it is a town wagon? That is the question.

Why are you deliberately manufacturing WIFOM?

[milkshake]

Does that count as WIFOM? It is a question of information. Are they scum who know they are pushing for a mislynch? Or are they town who erroneously believe they are trying to hang scum?

[Ghostlin]

Does that count as WIFOM? It is a question of information. Are they scum who know they are pushing for a mislynch? Or are they town who erroneously believe they are trying to hang scum?

It's an impossible question to answer, involves multiple game modes and what ifs (because NEITHER of them are going to claim) and does nothing to scumhunt for Town.

[milkshake]

That kind of question is the only way to scum hunt, Ghostlin.

You can't figure out if someone is mafia by throwing around buzzwords and hoping.

In the absence of night/role information, there are only two things that differentiate mafia from town. 1: Mafia knows everyone's alignments. 2: Mafia wants to lynch town. Only by discerning if either of these guide someone's actions can you uncover scum.

It should be clear that examining the genuineness of their attempt to lynch me is my attempt to determine whether these two distinctions apply to them.

[ThAdmiral]

(pssst. hey ghostlin. why don't you move your vote to him)

[Demon]

Sigh... players like Beli are fucking chores to play with. I'm going to vig this shit tonight no questions.

Unvote, Vote: Miss Destroyer

until I reread fully and get a better understanding of recent events.

[Cephrir]

Miss Destroyer has been prodded.

[GoodCop_BadCop]

I still would like to see a SoO lynch, other-head wants a milk-lynch, I see scum in both: happy with either.

Gah, I was wrong about Belisarius. I'm pretty sure I was. Look at him, he's town. I don't know how I thought he was scum.

This is an unsubstantiated claim and could be seen as distancing. Look at what? His... appearance? Posts? Which part of his posts? How

did

you think he was scum?

Your Voting Reason Recap:

Crusing
Taking Pot Shots from Sideline
Unjustified Ghostlin Vote

Which one of these reasons did Beli prove incorrect, or which one did you realize was incorrect and when?

It couldn't have just been coincidence that your flip on Beli came one post after this...

@ beli: it's pretty much you versus milk for top lynch spot now. You might as well jump on milk now, for self preservation reasons if nothing else.

I'm not voting Milk because I do not want him (her? I don't know what pronoun to use) dead at this time. My vote goes on my top scumread, and self-preservation be hanged.

I like this reply a lot.

UNVOTE: beli

I still don't think flip-flopping, being wishy washy, or inconsistent or whatever you call it makes you scum.

I mean, that's why people usually vote for me... for example, this game. And I'm not scum.

A Milkshake Kinda Question:

If you have this theory that something isn't scummy that others often consider scummy, and you turn out to be scum, would you then do that thing you don't consider scummy and then post that you don't think its scummy because you are doing said scummy thing as someone who isn't scum?

GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral are trying desperately to push my wagon. A town wagon. But do they know it is a town wagon? That is the question.

Far from desperate...

Show me in this town game of yours where is all this theory/odd talk that you say happens all of the time. I couldn't find it.

Also...

If this is true:

Slighty more sure about Belis but you,

GoodCop_BadCop, and Belis are my scum reads right now.

We're not talking 100% certainty of course but when are we ever.

Gah, I was wrong about Belisarius. I'm pretty sure I was. Look at him, he's town. I don't know how I thought he was scum.

UNVOTE: Belisarius

GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral are trying desperately to push my wagon. A town wagon. But do they know it is a town wagon? That is the question.

Why just an unvote and not a vote on your other scum-read? I don't think you are being completely true MilkShake.

[Cephrir]

Miss Destroyer is now Ms Marangal.

[Ms Marangal]

I wasn't going to come back here until HD caught up so that we could talk, but he decided to bail... that might mean I'll be that much more active though

Ffery, It was sunday for me and I'm pretty sure I was around for my higher priority games, not even touching any of my Hydra games. I did question Demon when I made the initial vote, I'm pretty sure I did and then I remember Swords saying something that caught my attention.

I made like, 2 posts though since I voted him. One was me questioning me him, and another was me trying to figure out why Swords pushed Ghost over me when, in the past he was never shy about doing such.

since it's just me now though...

I don't like how Demon try's to subtly try to get me not voting him. at the time, we had about a week left and as such, there was no need to be on a "Plausible realistic lynch wagon" since, everything is pretty much free-game at this point.

His early push on Matt was shit and his reason for not believing that he was scum was a terrible twist of Burden of efficiency and it was a push on him being more anti-town than scum

His vote on Selkies was terrible and again, it was placed because they were Anti-town and his vote is essentially OMGUS. He's trying to keep his cool under then (Orci?) pressure and looks like he doesn't want to be seen as someone who is over-reacting

People have started to talk about Beli-scum while he was still lightly pursuing other avenues then, he suddenly votes for Beli...

the vote was opportunistic because

People were already expressing interest in Beli-scum while he was not. Beli was already obtaining verbal pressure when Demon voted him which is usually a good indication of a wagon picking up.

being the first two voters on a lynching wagon is good for scum because those people usually receive the least amount of pressure. I believe I caught scum a few times for them being early on a lynch wagon.

The fact that most of his votes were either the first or second vote placed, and he moves his vote as soon as a wagon seems to be loosing steam strengthens the fact that Demon is scum.

[Demon]

Quotes or it didn't happen?

[Demon]

Also I'm pretty sure you don't understand my argument for my early push on Matt.

[milkshake]

GoodCop_BadCop said: It couldn't have been coincidence that my post came one post after Selkies's post saying that Belisarius's last post made him town. Well, duh. That post changed my read on Belis, too. I thought that was obvious. :\

Also

If you have this theory that something isn't scummy that others often consider scummy, and you turn out to be scum, would you then do that thing you don't consider scummy and then post that you don't think its scummy because you are doing said scummy thing as someone who isn't scum?

Difficult to answer directly but for example I don't think changing your mind is scummy and yes I change my mind all the time.

As for

Why just an unvote and not a vote on your other scum-read?

Couldn't decide which one to vote. Also starting to have doubts that you're scum. Unfortunately most of what I don't like about you could be attributed to current site meta not scummyness.

The site meta, by the way, is this: The best way to vote someone is a long angry post that has nothing to do with alignment and then vote. Actually talking about how the game works is, apparently, scummy.

That said, there is one huge gaping hole of scumminess that I found between GC_BC and Admiral. They have never mentioned eachother even once. Scum avoid talking to their partners in game.

Right now I'm being influenced by how poorly supported GC_BC and ThAdmiral's desperate push on me is. I'm going to take a while to remove myself mentally from the situation and then decide whether or not that makes them scummy, or whether my vote is better placed elsewhere. Then I'm going to vote.

[Amrun]

Is Matt usually this disengaged with the game?

He's hosting like a billion people at his house right now. I'm not there yet -- I was at work instead, but I will be there from Sunday evening to Wednesday. Iecerint will be there or is there because he's picking me up.

^^ what I mean by that is you should probably vote me instead. Or do you plan to shift to me if my wagon gets any bigger?

Shit like this makes me think ThAd might be a jester, but it's almost TOO obvious for jester... Even so he needs to go.

Quotes or it didn't happen?

This feels like a really weird response to a case on you. Also, Demon is very concerned with other people's level of activity without contributing anything himself, which puts me off.

[Demon]

I can eitehr go point by point and refute the case... or I can let anyone who gives half a damn evaluate its merits and see quite clearly that it's flawed, superficial, makes no atteempt to seek motivation and is chok filled with buzz words to the point where it almost supersedes content?

[Demon]

I don't feel like I've contributed jackshit like yo claim me to have been doing but maybe thats a mini wake up call I guess. O well?

[milkshake]

ThAd might be a jester

Yeah, what's with ThAdmiral calling himself scummy and asking why people aren't voting him. Also, why is he directly telling people to vote me when he doesn't himself even seem to have any particular reason why I'm scum. At least GoodCop_BadCop has that contrived meta argument.

VOTE: ThAdmiral

I'm going to give him what he wants. This will help us get an explanation. Telling people to vote you is not town behavior. It is not jester behavior, either, actually, and this setup is not likely to have a jester anyway.

[Amrun]

Telling people to vote you is not town behavior. It is not jester behavior, either, actually, and this setup is not likely to have a jester anyway.

Yes, but it's not really scum behavior, either. I'm baffled.

[ThAdmiral]

^^ what I mean by that is you should probably vote me instead. Or do you plan to shift to me if my wagon gets any bigger?

Shit like this makes me think ThAd might be a jester, but it's almost TOO obvious for jester... Even so he needs to go.

Go where, amrum?

[Amrun]

To the grave.

[milkshake]

I changed my mind about GoodCop_BadCop. I would put them as null-to-town now. Also, since they got on my case when I changed my mind about Belis without saying why, I will say why more specifically this time.

I still would like to see a SoO lynch, other-head wants a milk-lynch, I see scum in both: happy with either.

This seems genuine and townish. It would be pretty darn crafty to manufacture Hydra discussion in order to appear town. And Hydra with this type of discussion seems like they would definitely be town. The rest of the post seems genuine, too. Although I still disagree with GoodCop_BadCop's scum hunting philosophy/methodology, it is not uncommon for this site and not indicative of GC_BC's scumminess.

ThAdmiral, on the other hand, is still anti-town of some sort. I'm going to agree with 100% with Amrun on this one. Votes will solve this.

[sword_of_omens]

Heh…

and I don't do this as town?
anyway, I'm not liking your push on Ghost and I'm curious to why you choose to push him over me. You have never been shy to attack me when you are town, why aren't you pushing me now Swords?

Yes, you know I’m not shy about it…I haven’t gone after you because you haven’t been very active. You only have the few posts..You do seem to get more arrogant as scum and aren’t afraid to post..however, this game, you’ve mainly sidelined (mostly because of your other head from what you say) so I’m not 100% sure on you…now that that you will be posting more, I expect to get a good read on you. Where as with Ghostlin, I’m more certain...

speaking of “why aren’t you voting me’s” ..his case is more applicable with me:

Let me make sure this is documented here in this thread: SOO claims he knows who the scumteam is and then

DOESN'T FUCKING VOTE THEM.

Yeah, yeah he's trying to catch up or some shit like that, but if he was afraid of a quick lynch on me for example, he could of kept a vote on GCBC to respond to.

Let me be clear: there's no fucking reason to 'call it' and then not vote. It's against your wincon. You are trying to lynch scum and convince others to do the same. It's akin to not scum hunting because you obviously don't believe you've got it well enough to even be arsed to have people follow you

Tell you what. LYNCH ME. I FUCKING DARE YOU. We can make this 1v1 anytime you want, SOO. Any. Fucking. Time.

There's some juicy bullshit in SOO's reads, and we'll talk about his scum slots here in a second.

It's horrible. He's calling the scum team one post, calling GCBC Town now because 'he doubts he'd tie himself to scum this early'; and he comes back with two null-scum reads and me. It's asinine.

All of the effort he expends on me…yet his vote is for Belis:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ThAdmiral
What's wrong with talking a lot?

This is almost RVSy
But anyways, Amrun, Milkshake, and Ghostlin are solid town.
Can we just lynch Beli now

It's scary how I agree with both of these. Also liking Amrun's push on Ad.
Unvote, Vote: Beliscum

I also still want to hang you {Belis}, since this still isn't scum hunting but attacking my credibility.

EBWOP: Alright 'attacking' is the wrong word. More to the point of 'questioning my credibility to pursue this point'.

because of a ThAd vote…oh and because Beli questions his credibility? really?

My main beef with Ghostlin is this:
His hints weren’t for generic town…they were for specific people. Based on the info in my pm, I’m fairly certain scum know about these specific people. So, considering Ghostlin is “one of these” and advertising as such (knowing that scum would be looking for this type) why would he blatantly crumb this? To put a target on himself? No…bottom line is, he wouldn’t..whereas scum could easily do this to draw out those same people.

Plus, really, LOL I'M A NEWB? Horrible, scummy defense.

I’ve never once claimed Newb. So sorry, but no.

[Ghostlin]

Gah, I was wrong about Belisarius. I'm pretty sure I was. Look at him, he's town. I don't know how I thought he was scum.

UNVOTE: Belisarius

GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral are trying desperately to push my wagon. A town wagon. But do they know it is a town wagon? That is the question.

Alright. There are really two horrible things about this post, and I'm going to start with the question.

The question is bad not because it is not valid. It is bad because the entire point of being Town is to find the scum, and if GCBC and Ad are scum then it's Milkshake's job to come up with the reasoning. Milkshake is essentially sub-letting this point out to Town at this point of the game. There was a golden opportunity here to make valid points on why Ad/GCBC are scum, and she turns it into a talking point.

Also, the point is WIFOMIC because no one knows if Milk's lying about it being a Town wagon, and if it's a scum wagon, what does that mean?

#523...I don't know, guys, what else did you expect Beli to say in his defense? Yes, the post has town motive, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily Town motivated. In other words, it could be the right words for scum to say to get the wagon to dissolve. I question Milk jumping off at this point due to that point.

Really, the only thing that makes me question Milk scum is the confusion that seems to come out during the posts, and it seems somewhat genuine.

We'll talk about where I'll be moving my vote in the next post. I don't want to shit up the thread with a wall.

Unvote.

[Ghostlin]

because of a ThAd vote…oh and because Beli questions his credibility? really?

My main beef with Ghostlin is this:
His hints weren’t for generic town…they were for specific people.

Based on the info in my pm, I’m fairly certain scum know about these specific people.

So, considering Ghostlin is “one of these” and advertising as such (knowing that scum would be looking for this type) why would he blatantly crumb this? To put a target on himself? No…bottom line is, he wouldn’t..

whereas scum could easily do this to draw out those same people

.


In post 485, Ghostlin wrote:
Plus, really, LOL I'M A NEWB? Horrible, scummy defense.

I’ve never once claimed Newb. So sorry, but no.

Kids, I'm pretty sure SOO is either:
1) Softclaiming a role similar to mine
2) Softclaiming scum
3) Softclaiming both (they're not mutually exclusive)

Read the 'based on the info in my role PM' sentence. Here, let me bold it for you. Here's my problem with this. Scum may have a role that interacts with these but doesn't know who they are or what they do; that's true, but that's not essentially canon in the role PM I got. I wouldn't have necessarily assumed this by the verbiage in my role PM, nor would I have claimed it. SOO makes that leap in assuming I'm scum playing a clever ploy to flush out a PR that unless I knew that role was showing up due to setup speculation

or

there's something in my PM as scum that indicates that

or

scum got a similar role PM there'd be no indication to me of that.

I'd almost rather lynch Belisaurus for not scumhunting or Milkshake for being obfuscatory and not scum hunting today because I'm afraid they might slither away on later days. I'd almost really would because watching SOO dig himself this hole is amusing to me and more than I hoped for when I bread crumbed.

However, SOO just set this up as a 1v1. We're lynching him or me today.

Vote: SOO

I have very explicit instruction for town: if I survive today, lynch me before LYLO/MYLO. Scum may want to keep me around for WIFOM purposes, and I don't want that to happen.