Newbie 1382 (Game Over)

[Xiao Long]

you can go ahead and tell scum that I'm soft claiming a pr. I never soft claimed anything. Not even close. I said I was town.

OH, well, shit, I guess you must be town then, eh? I'm town too, guys. You believe me because I said it, right?

As far as my past games, you are taking my posting today as desperation. The reason I want you to look at past games is so that you can see my activity level.

I wasn't referring to your activity level. I was referring to HOW you were responding. I really do think you have some difficulty comprehending.

I'm not all over fear, and I wouldn't be all over you if you weren't overreacting as though I was. Trust me, if I was certain you were scum I would have already voted you.

I'm not overreacting. I see you're trying hard to go after me and I'm responding and questioning you, as well. That's how this works. If you're not certain I'm scum, what about me makes you think I'm town?

Here's what I don't get, why are you only responding to the points that I have made?

I'm not only responding to you, but I am responding to you more so than others because you seem scummier than others. I didn't respond to Jerry putting me at L-1 because he's leaning town to me. I also don't care if I'm at L-1.

There you go, Fear, that's two of my reads that you've been wanting.

Jon:

How then are you going to get anyone to vote with you if you are going to treat everyone as scum? I know we all come to this game with different mindsets, but we Town have to find common ground. Reads on page four are going to change as it gets later into the day, but we have to start somewhere. I'd like to think that you want to help Town (if you're Town).

BTW congrats on your recent Town win!

By making arguments that are solid enough that you agree with me because of the logic, not because you like me. Me being weary is helping Town. If you don't think so, that's fine. We just have different methods of approaching the game.

Thanks, that was a fun game during LyLo.

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 1.4

Xiao Long (3)

: notquitethere, Mr. Flay, jon_h61

rmpeacoc (1)

: Fear the poster

notquitethere (1)

: pitoli

No Vote (4)

: JerryArr, lortaku, rmpeacoc, Xiao Long

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

The deadline is Saturday, June 8, at 4:00 PM CDT, which is in (expired on 2013-06-08 16:00:00).

[jon_h61]

Me being weary is helping Town.

This is fluff - the word is wary, not weary. I've seen weary used a lot on here, which means feeling or showing tiredness, wary is feeling or showing caution about possible dangers or problems: "dogs are often wary of strangers".

I know I'm a grammar Nazi sometimes. You'll probably catch me making a few mistakes though.

[Xiao Long]

lul, I rarely misspell, but that word seems to give me more trouble than most.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeaaaaah. My gut likes a Xiao/Fear scumteam right now, but that'll depend on one of them flipping (most of that is based on page 3 interactions between the two). Right now I'm definitely happy with my vote staying on

XL

Xiao, the contentless posts and toying "you'll have to wait to see my alignment" stuff is reaffirming my suspicions. Fear might just be really eager/bored, but it looks like a wall of sound to me. He's not actually SAYING that much in all of those 21 posts... unnecessary defense of Xiao notwithstanding. He's basically resting on his experience (elsewhere) and supposed 'leadership' and analysis, but really it boils down to insults and bragging. Yes, we're only three days in, but you'd better be ACES at the late game with all of this buildup you're giving yourself on D1.

Quick question

Mr. Flay

(in your capacity as IC), do days usually last the full length here or is it normal for a lynch consensus to be made before then?

In my experience, D1 usually lasts most of the deadline time, because it takes so long to get any good information. That said I haven't played a Newbie game in several years, but D1 sitewide is almost always the longest.

JerryArr, your NL argument makes more sense coming from a site that lives in Rolemadnessylvania. That's another reason this site focuses more on the day game - plus, it's good practice for if you end up behind the curve with most of your PRs dead.

jon is reading as eager town to me now, but the L-1 vote is worth noting. Be more careful in the future.

REALLY hoping lortaku's next couple of posts have more than two lines. We're pretty much out of RVS stage now, do you still like your vote where it is? If not where will you put it?

pitoli, don't fall behind! You also need to start churning out some reads.

[rmpeacoc]

Xiao, this is where you are seriously failing.

1. People say they are town all of the time in games. It's a null tell. Why would you not say you were town? It's not like I said it out of the blue, either. I said that WHEN I FLIP TOWN, Fear should be in shock, since he claims that this game is 'so easy' and thinks I am scum. What do you not understand?

2. Than you can please explain to me how I was showing any sort of desperation BEFORE post 90, where you first mention it. I want specifics. You can say it all you want but until you support it this means nothing. It really looks to me like you're trying to paint me as desperate since I FOS you.

3. I really think you could just be THAT noob. I mean some of the things you say make it seem like you have some sort of experience, but they way that you are so against everyone is really just terrible... Maybe you are just ridiculously stubborn town who has played a lot of mafia but just fails because you've never learned anything about how to actually play the game.

4. You claim I'm pushing on you. All I'm doing is responding to you. I'm not trying to get others to vote you (in fact I'm not voting you), and I'm not really trying to take the focus off of myself either. If I was I wouldn't be posting much at all.

Also when you said you had 2 reads I see MAYBE one read. You still don't say whether you think I'm actually scum... your read isn't all that supported other than the fact that you think I seem desperate, which is funny coming from you since I FOS'd you.

8 1/2 hour drive to me today... might be splitting it between 2 days so we will see if I'm going to be around or not. If nothing else I'll be on tomorrow morning.

[notquitethere]

Xiao

I wonder if your the only person that has a problem with hypotheticals? Jon and rm both gave intelligent responses without me even asking them. Let's ask the others some questions about scenarios that might turn up:

Fear

What would you do when you lead a lynch on someone and they flip town to convince others that it was the right thing to have done?

Jerry

Say you're the cop, how would you decide who to inspect in the night?

lortaku

Which would you find more suspicious: a player that lurks constantly or a player that, on day three, has led the previous two mislynches?

Mr. Flay

Are there any situations as a doctor when you wouldn't use your protect during the night?

pitoli

If a player flips scum, would you be more suspicious of another player that never interacted with that scum or a player that had defended the scum player?

[Fear the poster]

Xiao

I wonder if your the only person that has a problem with hypotheticals? Jon and rm both gave intelligent responses without me even asking them. Let's ask the others some questions about scenarios that might turn up:

Fear

What would you do when you lead a lynch on someone and they flip town to convince others that it was the right thing to have done?

Jerry

Say you're the cop, how would you decide who to inspect in the night?

lortaku

Which would you find more suspicious: a player that lurks constantly or a player that, on day three, has led the previous two mislynches?

Mr. Flay

Are there any situations as a doctor when you wouldn't use your protect during the night?

pitoli

If a player flips scum, would you be more suspicious of another player that never interacted with that scum or a player that had defended the scum player?

According to a good friend of mine it's a multi step process
1 say you knew all along that player was town
2 blame the player for getting lynched since you only thought they were scum because they acted like scum
3 call someone else obvious scum

Jon gets a slight town read for figuring out that my joke was a joke. It shows he is reading the thread and thinking critically about it, and while that doesn't always make someone town I do find it to be a townie quality.

Flay: yes I am bored. Yes I am blowing hot air out my ass. But you'll notice I actually have more content than anyone else. My read on Xiao is necessary actually, he is getting close to being lynched and I think he is town. I prefer to lynch scum.
I find my stylistic approach to the game actually results in a lot of discussion generation. Which is a net gain for town even though it pisses people off. You calling me scum seems silly at best and scummy at worst. You gave no reason and you require a mislynch on me or Xiao to exonerate the other (and I'm push able in your mind either way Xiao flips. If He flips scum I was defending my scum buddy. If he flips town I was clearly trying to gain town red by opposing a lynch on a townie). Show me, and the thread, why I am scum. Not why you think my strong early read on Xiao is odd. You haven't even disagreed with my premise yet.

[notquitethere]

I hope you realise that people are going call you out on that three part strategy, as 1 directly contradicts 2: either you knew they were town and shouldn't have lynched them or you didn't know and you had justifiable reason for thinking they were scum. If you had justifiable reason for thinking they were scum and yet knew they were town and still lynched them anyway, then you're probably scum yourself.

[JerryArr]

JerryArr, your NL argument makes more sense coming from a site that lives in Rolemadnessylvania. That's another reason this site focuses more on the day game - plus, it's good practice for if you end up behind the curve with most of your PRs dead.

Yep! Plus it's a lot more universal from a town standpoint when we catch scum in a lie that's in the open for everyone to see, as opposed to "Oh, X is totally scum, trust me and my night actions!"

Jerry

Say you're the cop, how would you decide who to inspect in the night?

If I'm cop, I'd investigate whoever I don't have a good read on/have a null read on, or someone with a smaller amount of posts if everyone seems to be in one area or the other readwise. How I'd convey that to the town, though, is a different story. If I just rocket them up to the top of the town rankings without much explanation, I may as well put a neon sign on that says "I AM A COP, AND X IS TOWN, PLEASE KILL ME MAFIA".

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay
Are there any situations as a doctor when you wouldn't use your protect during the night?

If I had absolutely NOBODY I thought was Town. If I thought it would out me to a Scum Tracker early in a large game (pretty small chance). I can probably think of some weird lylo endgame where it wouldn't make sense, too...

Flay: yes I am bored. Yes I am blowing hot air out my ass. But you'll notice I actually have more content than anyone else. My read on Xiao is necessary actually, he is getting close to being lynched and I think he is town. I prefer to lynch scum.

Besides the "bravery against the IC" thing, what else makes you think he's Town? Just curious/getting you nailed down. I'll respond to your questions once you've said more.

Also anybody and everybody who wants to read Fear should read http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4906114 (completed game, no worries). Meta has its uses, kids.

[rmpeacoc]

@Mr. Flay - Thank you for linking that. I'm not sure what I'm taking from it yet other than Fear was using a lot of please and thank yous which I'm not seeing in this game. More politeness, if you will... interesting for sure.

@Xiao Seeing as nearly everyone else has responded to a hypothetical, would you be willing to rethink the fact that you refused to answer the question? If notquitethere gave you a different scenario now would you answer it?

@notquitethere I wanted to take a moment to in turn give you a scenario... one that took place in my very first game on MS (I'd appreciate if you would answer without going to look the game up):

The setup is Newbie 2of4 (found here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=2of4). You are town jailkeeper. Town wants to lynch player 1. Upon claim of intent to hammer, Player 1 claims cop. Player 2 cc's. Town lynches player 1, who flips Mafia Goon. Player 2 is now uncc'd cop. You also feel that you have a pretty good townread on player 3. Who do you jail that night?

[Fear the poster]

I hope you realise that people are going call you out on that three part strategy, as 1 directly contradicts 2: either you knew they were town and shouldn't have lynched them or you didn't know and you had justifiable reason for thinking they were scum. If you had justifiable reason for thinking they were scum and yet knew they were town and still lynched them anyway, then you're probably scum yourself.

Clearly the three part strategy is a joke, when you lead a lynch on a townie as a townie all there is to do is take responsibility for the lynch, call yourself bad and go back to looking for scum.

Mr. Flay
Are there any situations as a doctor when you wouldn't use your protect during the night?

If I had absolutely NOBODY I thought was Town. If I thought it would out me to a Scum Tracker early in a large game (pretty small chance). I can probably think of some weird lylo endgame where it wouldn't make sense, too...

Flay: yes I am bored. Yes I am blowing hot air out my ass. But you'll notice I actually have more content than anyone else. My read on Xiao is necessary actually, he is getting close to being lynched and I think he is town. I prefer to lynch scum.

Besides the "bravery against the IC" thing, what else makes you think he's Town? Just curious/getting you nailed down. I'll respond to your questions once you've said more.

Also anybody and everybody who wants to read Fear should read http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4906114 (completed game, no worries). Meta has its uses, kids.

His bravery and general 'don't give a fuck' attitude are something I am not used to seeing from scum. He draws attention to himself instead of dodging it and that seems townie to me. He absolutely isn't afraid of the lynch since he hasn't changed his posting style now he is at L-1 and clearly plays the game his way. That suggests to me someone without a team to look out for.

rmpea, you clearly do not understand how meta works.

[notquitethere]

Peacock

It somewhat depends on how I feel about everyone else in the game, but I'd seriously consider targeting player 2-- if town, they'd be prime target for scum, if scum then they'll be blocked for the night. If there's still a NK then I'll have ruled out Player 2 as scum, can now believe their cop claim and can work with them to take down the last scum. Is that how it went down?

Fear

, hah! Yeah, I figured you were probably joking.

[jon_h61]

At the time, we were on page two. Why would I have anything firm put down? Keep your vote on me all game if it makes you feel better.

Xiao didn't try to give any reads to my accusation, not even weak reads. He has spent most of the game offering rebuttals to all the attacks on him. That can be a tough place to scum hunt from. If he'd offered up weak reads, or reads I completely disagreed with, I'd keep my vote here til the end of the Day(or something better came up). I'll take a little of the heat of him and see where he goes from here.

UNVOTE:

@nqt You just blocked the cop's investigation, you realize that. If I couldn't decide on who's scummiest, I'd have JKd player 3 myself. Again I don't know what Night this is.

[Fear the poster]

So Jon, who do you think is scum?

nqt: I've noticed you haven't said anything worth anything yet. You are playing the hypothetical game and talking with me about jokes. What do you think of other players?

[rmpeacoc]

Peacock

It somewhat depends on how I feel about everyone else in the game, but I'd seriously consider targeting player 2-- if town, they'd be prime target for scum, if scum then they'll be blocked for the night. If there's still a NK then I'll have ruled out Player 2 as scum, can now believe their cop claim and can work with them to take down the last scum. Is that how it went down?

TBH this is exactly how I would have played it. I was quite pissed that the JK didn't do this.

BUT....

You just blocked the cop's investigation, you realize that. If I couldn't decide on who's scummiest, I'd have JKd player 3 myself. Again I don't know what Night this is.

^^this is how it WAS played. My only issue here is that either way we had a clear. The flaw with jailing cop is that it would be likely the next day that the cop would claim they were jailed. Since the cop died that night there was no way for town to know that there was a jk and we were left with a clear townie and no idea on clears until the jk died the next night. However the jk still fucked up because she didn't breadcrumb her second jail, who could have been clear as well. We still won the game as town. This was Newbie game 1350 if you'd like to read.

@Fear I think notquitethere's hypotheticals have been quite useful. Also did you not read? I said I'm not sure what to think of that game yet in comparison with this one. Your politeness was not the ONLY thing I got from that.

Tag fixed. ~Zaicon

[Xiao Long]

1. People say they are town all of the time in games. It's a null tell. Why would you not say you were town? It's not like I said it out of the blue, either. I said that WHEN I FLIP TOWN, Fear should be in shock, since he claims that this game is 'so easy' and thinks I am scum. What do you not understand?

2. Than you can please explain to me how I was showing any sort of desperation BEFORE post 90, where you first mention it. I want specifics. You can say it all you want but until you support it this means nothing. It really looks to me like you're trying to paint me as desperate since I FOS you.

Post 58 is the start of your desperation, it shows you going into an overly lengthy explanation for why you haven't been very active. You could have simply said something like, "Personal life getting in the way a little," but you went into a paragraph explanation. This to me seems you feel you need to justify more than usual. You really, really don't want people to think you're scum. You then say you were a super easy target for everyone when it was really only Fear that was attacking you, and there wasn't enough information for anyone else to really get on your case as much. Then you immediately say that lynching you would be a mislynch. Way too early to be going, "I'M TOWN, I'M TOWN, IF YOU LYNCH ME IT WILL BE A ML."

Post 66 shows you reiterating the "I'M TOWN GUYZ" sentiment.
Post 69 again trying to convince people you're town.
Post 73 shows you start to attack me. Makes sense, you've been under fire and you want the fire to be drawn to someone else. You find the most disagreeable person in the game that already has votes on him and you start launching a counter-offensive.

After those posts you start arguing with me about whether I should feed into notquitethere's hypotheticals and it's all just bullshit and a waste of time for both of us.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the only one who's said you were town this game. Seems like scum trying hard to convince everyone s/he's town.

3. I really think you could just be THAT noob. I mean some of the things you say make it seem like you have some sort of experience, but they way that you are so against everyone is really just terrible... Maybe you are just ridiculously stubborn town who has played a lot of mafia but just fails because you've never learned anything about how to actually play the game.

This is an example of using an ad-hominem as a means of discrediting me. You say the way I'm against everyone is terrible and proceed to speculate that I surely must fail in every game because I don't know how to play. There is absolutely nothing substantial about this point of your post, it's just an attempt to belittle me. Moving on.

4. You claim I'm pushing on you. All I'm doing is responding to you.

Actually, I'm the one responding to you. I didn't say anything to you until you called me out.

Also when you said you had 2 reads I see MAYBE one read. You still don't say whether you think I'm actually scum... your read isn't all that supported other than the fact that you think I seem desperate, which is funny coming from you since I FOS'd you.

I said you seem scummier than others. Are you really so pedantic that I need to say that you're leaning-scum for me? That is my read on you. My other read was Jerry is leaning-town. That's two total.

Xiao

Let's ask the others some questions about scenarios that might turn up:

Instead of wasting everyone's time (which you already did, apparently), why don't we play the game at hand instead of imaginary games? You haven't posted anything relevant to THIS game in a long time.

@Xiao Seeing as nearly everyone else has responded to a hypothetical, would you be willing to rethink the fact that you refused to answer the question? If notquitethere gave you a different scenario now would you answer it?

No.

VOTE: rmpeacoc

[notquitethere]

Jon, Peacock

@nqt You just blocked the cop's investigation, you realize that. If I couldn't decide on who's scummiest, I'd have JKd player 3 myself. Again I don't know what Night this is.

I realise I may well have blocked a cop's actions-- but I'll also have maximised the chance of blocking an NK. A cop's results are useless if they're dead.

We still won the game as town.

Perhaps the riskier play by the jailkeeper was acceptable as you'd already taken out half the scum team. Still, I'm glad we agree that it was a poor move.

Fear

I've noticed you haven't said anything worth anything yet. You are playing the hypothetical game and talking with me about jokes. What do you think of other players?

The hypothetical situations give me an idea of how the other players think. To this end they've been very useful. Once everyone replies to me, I'll give my full reads. A quick spoiler: I think Xiao is either scum or a

very

unhelpful town player.

Xiao

Instead of wasting everyone's time (which you already did, apparently), why don't we play the game at hand instead of imaginary games? You haven't posted anything relevant to THIS game in a long time.

Asking questions and getting a notion of how the others think, and how they react to simple questions

is

relevant to the game. I also ask hypothetical questions so that when you act contrarily later on in the game, you will be tripped up by your own hypocrisy. Your refusal to engage makes you look highly suspicious, as if you're afraid of later contradicting yourself.

[Fear the poster]

you haven't asked everyone hypotheticals though. So should I assume that those you do not ask such questions are your town reads?

[notquitethere]

The two people I didn't ask answered my cop question to Xiao on their own initiative. That scores a few small town points to me, but also showed they didn't have a problem with hypotheticals. One of the goals of asking everyone else was to see whether Xiao was the only person that had a problem with these kinds of questions.

[Fear the poster]

this question: Say you're the cop: Player 1 is at L-1. You've not inspected them. Player 2 claims cop and says that 1 is innocent. You've inspected Player 2 and know 2 to be a townie. Do you claim cop then?

that one is a bit dull though, no? It has only one good response since counterclaiming a townie shows mafia where to night hit. You also didn't provide enough information about the set up or what night it is/how many players remain. In a large normal with multiple cops possible it would be even worse to counterclaim.

If you want to have fun with hypotheticals give me something where there is actually information which would be useful in making the decision.

Here is a hypothetical for you: you roll scum in a newbie game and want to appear active without actually scumhunting. How do you do that? (hint: you do that by asking a bunch of hypothetical questions and not looking for scum).

[rmpeacoc]

As far as my explanation for what has been going on in my life. I felt like you guys deserved a real explanation. You do realize that if I had just said 'my personal life is getting in the way', then people would have just said I was actively lurking, don't you? It goes both ways. You can twist almost a person says to make them look like scum.

Also I never said if I was lynched it would be a ML. This is an example of how you are twisting my words again. I said if I'm hurting the game feel free to ml me. It's a decent strategy imo. If you know you have a ml (which we do) than getting rid of someone who is standing in the way of getting reads on others can be decent if you don't have a good scum read. If you are reading me as scum, I'm standing in the way. Why? Because I am town.

Also there is a difference between TRYING TO CONVINCE people that I am town and STATING that I am town. Please post a specific example of the words I said in post 69 where I was actually attempting to convince anyone that I am town.

In the beginning I was not attacking you. Originally I was attempting to read you by pointing out some scummy things you had done. You happened to be the only one i thought was scummy. Fear has done quite a few scummy things, but I think it's too over the top to be scummy. If you think I'm attacking you now, it's because of the back and forth, and because I think you are scum, which I stated first in 71. In 73 I asked you a question.

Here's a typical townie newbie mistake: 'Player X is attacking me because she/he is questioning something I said. Player X must be scum.' If you're scum you don't want to vote someone who is voting you but you do want to attack someone who you feel is attacking you.

What I asked in 73 was about why you said lortaku is either clueless or pretending. I asked if you would say the same thing about yourself. This all goes back to you stating you don't know what cop would do because you have never played as cop. (Clueless or Pretending to be clueless).

Regardless I feel like the hypotheticals have been useful. It helps with logic and how you actually think about the game.

For example: notquitethere thinks like me at first glance. However his is hypothetical so he MIGHT change his mind if he were actually in that situation and had all of the details. Jon's answer is not what I would do at first glance... they have different logic. Putting yourself in someone's head is an interesting perspective and there is nothing wrong with it.

If Xiao is town he's standing in the way of finding scum at the moment. If he's scum this will be an easy game.

VOTE: Xiao Long

I am fully aware that this is L-1. NO one hammers without claiming intent and then waiting for a role claim from Xiao. Xiao, please do not claim until someone says that they want to hammer you.

Everyone remember we have plenty of time.

P-edit. notquitethere it would be helpful, if you have any... to see some meta where you were town and asked hypotheticals in the game. Honestly I see 100% where you are coming from but I think meta could put this argument to rest.

[Xiao Long]

Xiao

Asking questions and getting a notion of how the others think, and how they react to simple questions

is

relevant to the game. I also ask hypothetical questions so that when you act contrarily later on in the game, you will be tripped up by your own hypocrisy. Your refusal to engage makes you look highly suspicious, as if you're afraid of later contradicting yourself.

Okay, and what's to stop them from lying? All you're doing is wasting time instead of actually scum hunting. Why?

[rmpeacoc]

That being said, I do think it's time you out some reads. Specifically I'd like to hear what some people think about the exchange between myself and Xiao.