Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[Ghostlin]

Two more things I forgot in my last post:

1) Apparently I'm not allowed to pressure someone else while voting Beli, particularly since Beli's not giving us much to interact with. In his wall post where he quotes me he mentions everything I dislike about his posts and why I didn't vote him.

Cupcake, the mod didn't give me the coveted triple voter role to cover you, Milkshake, and Beli all at the same time. Why don't you work on that for me?

I’ve never once claimed Newb. So sorry, but no.

No, but you did claim that I couldn't know that you've played enough mafia games to know Town perception because we've never played in a game together.

Which is asinine because you've been around a bit. You were here when I was last here before my hiatus. I presume you didn't stop playing games when I did.

[milkshake]

Ghostlin, what about all my other posts on page 22? You only address my first post but there is relevant information in all the other ones too. The first post, actually, you already questioned and I already answered you.

The question is bad not because it is not valid. It is bad because the entire point of being Town is to find the scum, and if GCBC and Ad are scum then it's Milkshake's job to come up with the reasoning. Milkshake is essentially sub-letting this point out to Town at this point of the game. There was a golden opportunity here to make valid points on why Ad/GCBC are scum, and she turns it into a talking point.

Also, the point is WIFOMIC because no one knows if Milk's lying about it being a Town wagon, and if it's a scum wagon, what does that mean?

You seem to have a problem with my questioning whether or not GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral know they were pushing a town wagon. You also seem to have a problem with the fact that I am implying I am town. I don't understand your objections to either of these things. You said it's WIFOMy. You can find WIFOM in basically line of reasoning if you look hard enough. That doesn't mean you should stop reasoning.

You also have a problem with me unvoting belisarious and not providing more analysis of GoodCop_BadCop and ThAdmiral in the same post. But just a few hours later I did exactly that... which is also the time when I voted. Did you accidentally miss the rest of page 22 maybe?

[milkshake]

EBWOP: You can find WIFOM in basically

any

line of reasoning if you look hard enough.

This is part of what I meant by

You can't figure out if someone is mafia by throwing around buzzwords and hoping.

There are only a few small ways to differentiate a scum player from a town player. Whether or not you can draw a connection between something they said and the concept of WIFOM is not one of these ways. No one is going to soft claim scum, or make a "scum slip", so of course those aren't the ways either.

You need to draw direct connections between what they did, role information, voting, and their win condition. That's the only way!

In the case of ThAdmiral, he has decided to openly claim that he wants votes. He has also tried to push for a town lynch in a way that I believe reflects knowledge or disconcern that he is pushing a town lynch. Presumably, if he wants us to vote him, then by voting him we bring him closer to his wincon. But that wincon CAN'T be the scum's wincon, because we all know the scum's wincon involves not getting lynched. So we are either furthering the town's wincon or a third party wincon. If it's the town wincon, great. If it's the third party wincon, we A) get more information and B) lynch a third party. We also further that third party's win condition but who cares? Our win conditions aren't exclusive.

Also, on the off chance that he's scum being a cocky jerk then this works too.

[Selkies]

I wasn't going to come back here until HD caught up so that we could talk, but he decided to bail... that might mean I'll be that much more active though

Ffery, It was sunday for me and I'm pretty sure I was around for my higher priority games, not even touching any of my Hydra games. I did question Demon when I made the initial vote, I'm pretty sure I did and then I remember Swords saying something that caught my attention.

I made like, 2 posts though since I voted him. One was me questioning me him, and another was me trying to figure out why Swords pushed Ghost over me when, in the past he was never shy about doing such.

since it's just me now though...

I don't like how Demon try's to subtly try to get me not voting him. at the time, we had about a week left and as such, there was no need to be on a "Plausible realistic lynch wagon" since, everything is pretty much free-game at this point.

His early push on Matt was shit and his reason for not believing that he was scum was a terrible twist of Burden of efficiency and it was a push on him being more anti-town than scum

His vote on Selkies was terrible and again, it was placed because they were Anti-town and his vote is essentially OMGUS. He's trying to keep his cool under then (Orci?) pressure and looks like he doesn't want to be seen as someone who is over-reacting

People have started to talk about Beli-scum while he was still lightly pursuing other avenues then, he suddenly votes for Beli...

the vote was opportunistic because

People were already expressing interest in Beli-scum while he was not. Beli was already obtaining verbal pressure when Demon voted him which is usually a good indication of a wagon picking up.

being the first two voters on a lynching wagon is good for scum because those people usually receive the least amount of pressure. I believe I caught scum a few times for them being early on a lynch wagon.

The fact that most of his votes were either the first or second vote placed, and he moves his vote as soon as a wagon seems to be loosing steam strengthens the fact that Demon is scum.

We've got four days. I have zero confidence that town is going to come to a well informed consensus lynch atm.

[Ms Marangal]

Quotes or it didn't happen?

???

This is your response, your not even going to try to rebut anything?

you aren't even going to try to deny how my points on your votes being opportunistic don't apply?

Because I thought that your play looked like scum trying a gambit, and not town playing antitown.

I think the former is more likely because I consider you a player with a high level of gravitas that has some kind of a grasp on the understanding of why a play like that would normally look town.

This is your point on Mattscum, is it not? how is this not a twist of Burden of proficiency? You say it's scummy because town with as much experience as Matt has under his belt isn't likely town playing anti-town

how are my points not looking for scum motivation? I explain why it's scum action over it being town action.

Milks reactions to everything are terrible.

Yes, you know I’m not shy about it…I haven’t gone after you because you haven’t been very active. You only have the few posts..You do seem to get more arrogant as scum and aren’t afraid to post..however, this game, you’ve mainly sidelined (mostly because of your other head from what you say) so I’m not 100% sure on you…now that that you will be posting more, I expect to get a good read on you. Where as with Ghostlin, I’m more certain...

are you saying that I'm scared to post as town?

550 makes me thing Ghost is town, I really cannot see town making that kind of statement so tell me again your case on him?

I'm not catching the Crumbs your talking about.

Pedit: we do? fuck Uh..

I'll check the main wagon and see which ones I can get on, but I would much rather have this demon lynch

[Demon]

Pull quotes to show me that they're opportunistic plz?

My point on Mattscum operated under the idea that claiming VT looks town. It's entirely unnecessary for scum to do it and lock themselves into a lie all game when they don't have any bearings on the game - that's why it's more likely to come from town being antitown. I was saying that under this I considered Matt a player that would unnecessarily claim that to gain a theoretical edge deeper into the game.

...But that all goes out the window if Matt apparently has a history of doing gambits a lot as either alignment.

[Selkies]

Milks reactions to everything are terrible.

terrible scummy or terrible townie?

- fferyllt

[Demon]

I'm not catching the Crumbs your talking about.

My lynch isn't happening today btw don't say I didn't warn you?

[Cephrir]

Note: Vote Count 1.14 has been removed because I messed up.

Vote Count 1.14b

milkshake 3

(ThAdmiral, MattP, GoodCop_BadCop)

sword_of_omens 3

(Iecerint, Nero Cain, Ghostlin)

ThAdmiral 3

(Belisarius, Amrun, milkshake)

Ms Marangal 2

(Selkies, Demon)

Demon 1

(Ms Marangal)

Ghostlin 1

(sword_of_omens)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline has been extended by 8 hours because I will be traveling on the day of the deadline.

The deadline for Day 1 is Monday, June 3rd, at 9 PM EST. This is in (expired on 2013-06-03 21:00:00).

[Ghostlin]

ThAd might be a jester

Yeah, what's with ThAdmiral calling himself scummy and asking why people aren't voting him. Also, why is he directly telling people to vote me when he doesn't himself even seem to have any particular reason why I'm scum. At least GoodCop_BadCop has that contrived meta argument.

VOTE: ThAdmiral

I'm going to give him what he wants. This will help us get an explanation. Telling people to vote you is not town behavior. It is not jester behavior, either, actually, and this setup is not likely to have a jester anyway.

You are referring to this post. Ghostlin is not impressed.

You mention GCBC as your scum read, and you vote the Ad for the following reasons:
1) Not having a reason for voting you (this actually isn't the problem Ghostlin has a problem with, but it's epidemic of a greater one)
2) Ad dared people to vote him and called himself scummy.

Here's my problem. One of these has possible scum motivation: the voting you without a reason to get a lynch pushed (at this moment town or scum, it really doesn't matter; both have possible applications). The second doesn't fit into scum motivation aside from removing votes from your or Beli's wagon, both of which Ad's pushed today. And even that, I'm not buying. So Ad's move seems to be WTF motivated. It might be reaction testing to see if someone bites. He might be trolling.

What this post tells me isn't necessarily of Ad, but of you. There's not been a lot of progression of coherent thought. Someone (forgive me I don't remember who) said that you didn't revote GCBC who was one of your major scum reads, and now Ad is, and he's on your wagon. You unvoted Beli for one post that sounded Town. That's a pretty big flip from the scum read you said you were getting.

[milkshake]

Ghostlin, please read more carefully. I talked about why I didn't vote GC_BC, I think he's town now. I changed my mind about Belis, too. Heck, I might change it again. Would it be better if I just made one decision and then stuck to that all game? That's not how it works. I can not post my thoughts until the end of the day if you want, but that doesn't seem good either.

As for ThAdmiral, yeah maybe he's town trolling. But seriously what is this game if I can't even trust town to try to play pro-town?

[milkshake]

Neither of us is scum, Ghostlin. We need to look elsewhere for that.

[Ms Marangal]

Milks reactions to everything are terrible.

terrible scummy or terrible townie?

- fferyllt

I don't even know, I want to call it scum terrible posts. He's moved from calling people scum to trying to placate them... I think. It feels like he's overwhelmed like he doesn't know how to get out of being caught

Demon, I was talking to Swords about the crumbs though I would still much rather prefer you. I can't quote where you have been opportunistic because it isn't your posts themselves, on their own they are null but it's more of what has been happening around it, the environment of which you have made your posts. The environment that I have explained when I stated that I believed you to be scum

[Belisarius]

I think. It feels like he's overwhelmed like he doesn't know how to get out of being caught

Yes. When he invited me to vote Milk, I doubt it was out of any concern for my safety. Why single me out? Because I was voting him. I don't think he expected the result to be that my wagon would collapse (tbf, neither did I) and it would turn into a wagon on him, and he's been quiet since because he's in oh shit mode and doesn't want to make things worse.

With the deadline approaching, we're not going to get a better reaction than this.

ThAdmiral delenda est.

[milkshake]

I think Ms Marangal was talking about me, but I agree with you about ThAdmiral.

[Selkies]

Milks reactions to everything are terrible.

terrible scummy or terrible townie?

- fferyllt

I don't even know, I want to call it scum terrible posts. He's moved from calling people scum to trying to placate them... I think. It feels like he's overwhelmed like he doesn't know how to get out of being caught

I don't know either, but there's something that strikes me as genuine in his posts trying to explain his thoughts about the game.

I've played with some really terrible town in some recent games. If that's what is going on with milkshake I think I'll eventually be able to tell. And orcinus thought he was town last time we touched bases (which was several days ago).

Demon, I was talking to Swords about the crumbs though I would still much rather prefer you. I can't quote where you have been opportunistic because it isn't your posts themselves, on their own they are null but it's more of what has been happening around it, the environment of which you have made your posts. The environment that I have explained when I stated that I believed you to be scum

UNVOTE: Ms Marangal

I know it's kinda not fun to move forward in games without input from your hydra buddies, but waiting for hydra synch-up comes off as tentative and being uncommunicative. I think acting on your own when necessary will go a long way toward dispelling concerns. And I need to take my own advice on that issue.

Let's find scum.

- f

[Selkies]

Leaning Town

milkshake (orcinus agreed)
Amrun - (orcinus agreed)
GCBC - was leaning scum, but I've changed my mind. I wish you guys would indicate who makes your posts. I don't know you well enough to figure it out.
Ghostlin - leaning town
Beliasaurus - (somewhat tentative and mostly based on the post that drew my unvote. Orcinus had him leaning scum last we talked)

Null

MattP (orcinus leans town I think. I need more posts to figure him out)
Iecerint (this is my fault, will work on his iso today)
Demon - (fallen from a town read for me. orcinus had a town read last we talked. I think there's something to MsM's observations)

Leaning Scum

SoO
Nero Cain (he recovered a little from our early scum read, but has mostly faded into the woodwork lately)


4 days left. Let's see some reads lists guys.

- f

[Selkies]

^^ Missed Ms Marangal. I have her leaning town now.

[Selkies]

^^ jesus christ and thAdmiral. leaning scum.

[Ghostlin]

Selkies, 563 didn't read like a town post to me. Not only did he not bother to figure out which person MM was talking to, he used it for a rather opportunistic push.

[Selkies]

Selkies, 563 didn't read like a town post to me. Not only did he not bother to figure out which person MM was talking to, he used it for a rather opportunistic push.

Noted. Of my leaning town he's probably the weakest, but I didn't see the post as an opportunistic push. The game is scarily stalled given the approaching deadline and there's no real town bloc formed though there are enough town reads that some of us ought to be talking about getting a good lynch out of this mess.

- f

[Selkies]

also, I approve of your new av.

- f

[Belisarius]

Not only did he not bother to figure out which person MM was talking to, he used it for a rather opportunistic push.

My opinion of ThAd is independent of what I think Mara thinks. What I said was about ThAd. I was focusing on ThAd because I think he's scum. Mara said something which applies to my view of ThAd, so I quoted it. If she was talking about someone else, this changes nothing.

Also, "opportunistic?" With deadline looming? I don't want a no lynch.

Tell you what: If ThAd flips town, policy lynch me tomorrow.

[Ghostlin]

milkshake 3 (ThAdmiral, MattP, GoodCop_BadCop)
sword_of_omens 3 (Iecerint, Nero Cain, Ghostlin)
ThAdmiral 3 (Belisarius, Amrun, milkshake)

These seem to be our plays of the day for the moment. In order:

Milkshake:

well, I've talked about milkshake over and over and ad infinitum. The fact that it's been almost a backslide into AtE doesn't help their case any. Even with the uncertainty factor, I'm OK with a Milkshake lynch today because I feel they've been scummy enough.

SOO:

Has set up a 1v1 where he thinks my crumbs are scummy, and to root out players with the same abilities as me. The premise would be fine, except that's all he's really got, and his response to this was to soft counter claim to prove his own point.

NOBODY FUCKING DOES THIS. If someone's rolefishing, you don't reply with the information they're fishing for right after you claim they were fishing. It's not only illogical, it's nuts and if Omens was town, he just hurt town MORE. There's no logical reason to do it as town. NONE. Note this isn't an incidence of full claim/counter claim, it's more of breadcrumb/going to accuse you of rolefishing and softclaim.

So I feel he's framed the situation that you either have to prove I'm the real deal or he is. However, you don't have to do this today.

Ad:

I had a very soft Town read on Ad at the beginning of the day. It's crumpling as he does more and more things that don't make sense. I'd prefer the above two, obviously, but the confirmation of a lynch and seeing who was instrumental is more important to Town. I also don't like two of the people on the Ad's wagon.

Town needs to concentrate their efforts in bringing one of these three wagons to lynch, so lets talk about these wagons unless there's compelling evidence to do otherwise.

[Selkies]

I'm not willing to lynch milkshake at this time. If orcinus shows up before nightfall (and he probably will) and agrees to a milkshake lynch I'll go along with it, but not very happily.
- f